Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[selahsays]

The thought that there are things we can't know causes what is revealed to be in doubt is ludicrous. The secret things are indeed hidden, but that which is revealed is for us that we may know God and live our lives to the fullest. If what some are saying is true, then we can be sure of nothing. And yet they seem to be able to speak authoritatively about having no truth. To me it is oxymoronic to say we can't know what we do know that has been revealed by God.

…but maybe we’re not expected or meant to understand everything in the Bible all at one time or at one reading. God is constantly revealing little truths to us as we study.
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
- 1 Corinthians 13:12

 

[studier]

i think this thread is another good example of why, in the olden days, it was said philosophy should be the handmaid of theology, and not the other way around. there's a whole lot of philosophy here lol.

we can still love one another, though... i hope.

The discussion of "free will" is certainly philosophical as has been documented for centuries.

There is also quite a bit of Scripture interpretation being discussed here.

I'm pretty sure each and every side here thinks they are loving the other(s) by trying to get them to think straight! There's even one here who thinks putting others on "ignore" is to help them mature in Christ.

Gotta love social media...

 

[notmyown]

was it Tozer who said something like, what comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us?

my little sister says the extent to which we worship God that isn't biblical is the extent to which we worship an idol.

 

[Cameron143]

Actually He did per Romans 1.

That's not what Romans 1 says. It says that one can know God exists through the things that are seen. It doesn't say He goes to each person. Big difference.

 

[notmyown]

The discussion of "free will" is certainly philosophical as has been documented for centuries.

There is also quite a bit of Scripture interpretation being discussed here.

I'm pretty sure each and every side here thinks they are loving the other(s) by trying to get them to think straight! There's even one here who thinks putting others on "ignore" is to help them mature in Christ.

Gotta love social media...

i'm sure there are folks trying to help others, and i'm sure there are some just tryna be right. humans!

 

[selahsays]

Yes, but He has already revealed the reality of salvation, the necessity of the gospel, as well as told us that the opportunity for salvation takes place during our lifetimes. Should I ignore what God has revealed?

No.

 

[Cameron143]

…but maybe we’re not expected or meant to understand everything in the Bible all at one time or at one reading. God is constantly revealing little truths to us as we study.
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
- 1 Corinthians 13:12

What you have shared is not inconsistent with anything I shared.

 

[studier]

making absolutist claims

This is a problem in itself.

 

[selahsays]

This is a problem in itself.

Methinks we need to understand as best we can God’s Word in its entirety—not one verse at a time. God will put all of it together for us one fine day, and then it will flow so smoothly.

 

[studier]

Not hard to answer. Because God is glorified in all His attributes equally. He is just as glorified in love, grace, and mercy as He is in justice, sovereignty, omnipotence, and righteousness.

Since God is perfect in essence, and all of His attributes work together perfectly, then how did He not love all men when its said per Rom1 that He revealed Himself to all men?

Do we exclude His love to make a point of view work?

 

[MerSee]

was it Tozer who said something like, what comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us?

my little sister says the extent to which we worship God that isn't biblical is the extent to which we worship an idol.

False/heretical doctrine is the idol all heretics worship.

 

[Cameron143]

Since God is perfect in essence, and all of His attributes work together perfectly, then how did He not love all men when its said per Rom1 that He revealed Himself to all men?

Do we exclude His love to make a point of view work?

There is a difference between making known one's existence and making oneself known. The first is able to be known by natural means. The other through supernatural. The first is knowing factual information. The second is knowledge gained through experience. The natural man does not know God experientially.
The fact that God can be known through nature, and even conscience, is evidence that God isn't willing that any should perish, but it is not evidence that He has bestowed His love upon someone.

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

Oh, I know. According to everyone, everyone has failed. You all thrive on pointing out each others sour flavors, you miss their flavors of sweetness.

Sour, bitter, angry people.

when reading about the apostolic church and how they lived c ommunally apart from the roman system at the time, soo much so that they were considered a “sect”

“But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.”
Acts 28:22

i wonder if the church of today aspired to the church of old, even against the beast system of today, in the unity of the body of christ we could flourish aside from the laws of man, consider the amish. i think the amish in their ways and customs mirror the church of the 1st century ad and yet in these forums we attack each other on the smallest points of doctrine😕

 

[BillyBob]

Well, then, welcome to the club! Did you know that God enabling us is taken by some to mean we are forced?

You can only do, what you can only do! The rest is out of our hands.....

 

[studier]

Firstly, let's be clear re: what you've been saying:

I have heard it said with some regularity on this site that God loves all people. It's a wonderful sentiment. And yet, there have been very large numbers of people who were born, lived, and died and never heard the gospel, heard the name Jesus, or was familiar with the One true God. Can someone tell me how God loved them?

• 'There have been very large numbers of people who...never...was [were] familiar with the One true God.'

I'm not referring to people who have heard the Gospel, heard of Jesus, or heard of God. I asked about the large number of people throughout history who never did. How about them?

• 'The large number of people throughout history who never did hear[d] of God'
  • This seems consistent with your earlier statement

I believe God can do anything. And He could have gone to everyone of them personally. But He didn't. And that's my point. You bring up things that are possible but that never occurred. You ask about things that haven't been revealed.
Be honest with me. If I responded this way to you, would you think I was being evasive?

• [God] could have gone to everyone of them personally. But He didn't.
  • I'm following your progression of thought via what you say.
  • Are you making a completely different point here than what you said above?
  • Does what you say here negate what you said above?
  • What do you consider to be God going personally to men?
    • Are you just being rhetorical?
    • In effect, has God not gone to all men and made His existence clear in and to them?

That's not what Romans 1 says. It says that one can know God exists through the things that are seen. It doesn't say He goes to each person. Big difference.

• You're correct. God did not show up in everyone's tent and introduce Himself (in the event you're being rhetorical above).
• But, unless you would exclude any man from ungodliness and unrighteousness, it does say He made Himself clear in and to all men.

I'll look, but it looks like you did not answer by Rom1 based objection to at least one of your first quoted posts above. Would you assert the same objection about Rom1 to it or them?

Let's pick your first post I quoted above: Why do you say: 'There have been very large numbers of people who...never...was [were] familiar with the One true God.'?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

when reading about the apostolic church and how they lived c ommunally apart from the roman system at the time, soo much so that they were considered a “sect”

“But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.”
Acts 28:22

i wonder if the church of today aspired to the church of old, even against the beast system of today, in the unity of the body of christ we could flourish aside from the laws of man, consider the amish. i think the amish in their ways and customs mirror the church of the 1st century ad and yet in these forums we attack each other on the smallest points of doctrine😕

I hear what you're saying and appreciate the depth of your considerations and pondering. My friend, the "heart" of the Bible revolves around the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ. There is no more single important concept of the entire Bible than this, for it provides the greatest Biblical context that allows a person to understand what the entire Bible is about. Circumcision of the heart is the utter fulcrum of our Faith, for those who receive "it" are those who have been Spiritually Enabled to not only understand the Word of God, but to also obey it . . . to put it into practice. Consider the below teaching from Paul, a teaching that only a wildly rare group of preachers and teachers of today would even dare to touch:

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. ... 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

I thank God for the NLT, for it clearly and plainly explains that without Spiritual Circumcision (Christ's Holy Operation of Faith), Spiritual death will reign in such a person's life. Until Spiritual Circumcision takes place, such a person's Spiritual Father WILL BE Satan.

We MUST look at this process of Spiritual Circumcision as promised to a certain group of Jews, a process that is clearly described (and pointing to the Spiritual Work of Christ). Below, notice the highlighted phrase, "so that." This phrase shows that unless a person receives this Spiritual Work, they CANNOT obey, nor understand, nor even believe.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

Until a person receives this Work of Christ, being kind to one another is not possible.

2 Timothy 1:15 NLT - "As you know, everyone from the province of Asia has deserted me--even Phygelus and Hermogenes."

Why would these "christians" abandon Paul? They did not receive the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ. Yes, they heard the Gospel Saving Plan of Jesus and heard it with gladness, but they did not truly believe it.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 NLT - "Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."

We MUST learn Spiritual Circumcision. Teachers and preachers MUST begin to teach this core doctrine.

 

[Cameron143]

Firstly, let's be clear re: what you've been saying:

• 'There have been very large numbers of people who...never...was [were] familiar with the One true God.'

• 'The large number of people throughout history who never did hear[d] of God'
  • This seems consistent with your earlier statement

• [God] could have gone to everyone of them personally. But He didn't.
  • I'm following your progression of thought via what you say.
  • Are you making a completely different point here than what you said above?
  • Does what you say here negate what you said above?
  • What do you consider to be God going personally to men?
    • Are you just being rhetorical?
    • In effect, has God not gone to all men and made His existence clear in and to them?

• You're correct. God did not show up in everyone's tent and introduce Himself (in the event you're being rhetorical above).
• But, unless you would exclude any man from ungodliness and unrighteousness, it does say He made Himself clear in and to all men.

I'll look, but it looks like you did not answer by Rom1 based objection to at least one of your first quoted posts above. Would you assert the same objection about Rom1 to it or them?

Let's pick your first post I quoted above: Why do you say: 'There have been very large numbers of people who...never...was [were] familiar with the One true God.'?

I'm just pointing out a historical fact on one level. But in the use of the particular language, I'm pointing out that they weren't in an intimate experiential relationship with God as characterized by John 17:3.

 

[BillyBob]

And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

 

[studier]

There is a difference between making known one's existence and making oneself known. The first is able to be known by natural means. The other through supernatural. The first is knowing factual information. The second is knowledge gained through experience. The natural man does not know God experientially.
The fact that God can be known through nature, and even conscience, is evidence that God isn't willing that any should perish, but it is not evidence that He has bestowed His love upon someone.

I'm going to save some space here since your practice is not to post and explain Scripture, Per the verses from Rom1 I posted:

• 1:18 is experiential revelation of God's wrath
• 1:19 men are to experientially know of 1:18 because God has made clearly known His existence to men
• 1:20 from God's creation and His "invisibles" - His eternal power and divinity - are clearly seen and are understood
  • This is again experiential
  • This is also mental reasoning - literally putting things together in the mind
• 1:21 they knew God but did not glorify Him nor were thankful;
  • This is now a combination of mentality and experiential
  • Now their mentality is degenerating
• 1:22 their experiential professing is wrong
• 1:23 their experiential actions are now idolatrous
• 1:24-25 is a combination of mentality and experiential

These verses alone provide information that the natural man knows God both rationally and experientially. To continue the theme:

• NKJ Rom1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
  • The Greek word here speaks of experiential knowledge. It is an emphasized concept of knowledge (just knowing something mentally). It speaks of practical knowledge - knowledge to be practiced.
  • BTW, human choice is clear here.

You're limiting what God has done in men per Rom1 to being natural and not being supernatural. But God making Himself, His eternal power, His Divinity clearly known in and to men is supernatural. And in this clarity in men God is clearly expecting men to act on this practical knowledge.

I understand what you're getting at re: the bestowal of His love, and there is clearly a special sense of this for His Children - those who love Him. But, by this focus, IMO you're negating His love as part of His perfect essence that works perfectly together with all of His attributes, and what He has done in love for all mankind.

If you've got any Scripture that you think makes your case, please post it. Love is a big topic. You should be able to present some Scripture to make your case. Maybe you can...

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Is there anything more important that we understand than what we find in Ezekiel 36:25-27? And, Colossians 2:9-15? And, Deut 30:6?

Psalm 51:10-12 NLT - "Create in me a clean heart, O God. Renew a loyal spirit within me. Do not banish me from your presence, and don't take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and make me willing to obey you."

We sing the above verses (well, in church's that haven't rejected classic hymns that contain actual teachings), but the vast majority haven't a clue as to what they're singing. They accept Psa 51:10-12, but the reject the Circumcision of Christ. This is the epitome of confusion.