What am I presuming God will not do that He has made clear He does do?
What am I presuming God does that He says He does not do?
Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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What am I presuming God does that He says He does not do?
You presume because there are things God has kept secret means we know nothing. The things He has revealed we do know. When I ask the question...what happens to people who never heard the Gospel, or heard of Jesus, or knew the One true God?...it isn't that we don't know. All we have to do is apply what God has revealed.
We know there is a necessity of the gospel for salvation. We know that faith must be in Christ. We know eternal life is knowing God. None of these things is true for the people I asked about. The answer isn't hard to come to by what God has made known. Some people don't want to admit it because it doesn't fit with their idea of who God is.
But let a person examine himself, and in this way let him eat from the bread and let him drink
from the cup. For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks
judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few
have died." 1 Corinthians 11:28-30
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God
will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death.
I am not saying that you should pray about that." 1 John 5:16
grace and peace ...........
There is good reason to suspect that what is necessary now that the new covenant is in play, was not necessary before the new covenant came into play. There is good reason to susoect that what is necessary for those today who have heard the true gospel presented to them, may not be necessary for those today who have never heard the true gospel. The universal scope of your world-view does not qualify you to have correct answers to questions about all things in the universe.
PaulThomson said:
You do not know everything God can and has and will do. You, a mere human, are the one making absolutist claims about what God can and cannot do, purely on the basis that He hasn't told us, as if He is obliged to tell us.
Which of us is being presumptuous? The one who says "Perhaps God could...," or the one who, says, "It is impossible for God to..."?
To be frank, I think I am one who is prepared to not evade questions others tend to avoid. What are you suggesting I have avoided?
You do not know everything God can and has and will do. You, a mere human, are the one making absolutist claims about what God can and cannot do, purely on the basis that He hasn't told us, as if He is obliged to tell us.
Which of us is being presumptuous? The one who says "Perhaps God could...," or the one who, says, "It is impossible for God to..."?
To be frank, I think I am one who is prepared to not evade questions others tend to avoid. What are you suggesting I have avoided?
PaulThomson said:
What am I presuming God will not do that He has made clear He does do?
What am I presuming God does that He says He does not do?
No. I'm not assuming we know nothing. I am saying what we think we know is incomplete and does not necessarily deal with all situations and contexts. We cannot with certainty apply what is said of particular groups to those outside of those groups.
Some see salvation as something that heals God's attitude to man, counting our sins against us, as if it is His attitude to sinners that has created the rift. Others, like myself, see salvation as something that heals our attitudes to God and ourselves, so that we can draw close to One who has always been loving and forgiving and ready to allow us to draw near to Him, not counting our sins against is. To the first group, the gospel enables sinners to find peace because they learn that God will forgive and accept sinners who come to Him in faith, and they think all people need the gospel to escape a future hell. To the latter group, the gospel enables those struggling with guilt and shame and worried about whether God was angry with them to find peace in the assurance that God has forgiven them and has always loved them and has always been willing to accept them coming to Him with faith, and all people need the gospel to escape their present hellish anxieties.
For the first group, the gospel is necessary to escape torment in a future hell. To the latter group, the gospel is necessary to repair unbelievers' present false concepts of God.
What am I presuming God will not do that He has made clear He does do?
What am I presuming God does that He says He does not do?
No. I'm not assuming we know nothing. I am saying what we think we know is incomplete and does not necessarily deal with all situations and contexts. We cannot with certainty apply what is said of particular groups to those outside of those groups.
Some see salvation as something that heals God's attitude to man, counting our sins against us, as if it is His attitude to sinners that has created the rift. Others, like myself, see salvation as something that heals our attitudes to God and ourselves, so that we can draw close to One who has always been loving and forgiving and ready to allow us to draw near to Him, not counting our sins against is. To the first group, the gospel enables sinners to find peace because they learn that God will forgive and accept sinners who come to Him in faith, and they think all people need the gospel to escape a future hell. To the latter group, the gospel enables those struggling with guilt and shame and worried about whether God was angry with them to find peace in the assurance that God has forgiven them and has always loved them and has always been willing to accept them coming to Him with faith, and all people need the gospel to escape their present hellish anxieties.
For the first group, the gospel is necessary to escape torment in a future hell. To the latter group, the gospel is necessary to repair unbelievers' present false concepts of God.
You got any scriptures to support your claims, Rufus? How do you limit the word “world”?
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
- Philippians 2:9-11
Such as?
14 I am a debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to unwise.
15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (Rom. 1:14-25 NKJ)
Assuming, as most do, that this is Paul explaining how all men know of God's existence, eternal power, and divinity - because God has revealed it in them - and who then decide whether or not to honor Him as God and be thankful to Him, then your statement some men never did hear about God is unbiblical.
God knows who has rejected Him. His love was evidenced in making certain all men know of Him and have been given the opportunity to seek and find Him.
From there we can see in biblical history that entire cultures were wiped out under God's command and nothing was to be left of them. Again, I see it as biblically clear that God knows who has rejected and will continue to reject Him. And since God is Love, then they reject Love.
Do you read these things that warrant the assertions you make, or do you create them yourself?
I had a friend in seminary who spoke many times of the need for the doctrine of N.I.C.E. to be written. I forget what it stood for, but it was a biblical view against this human viewpoint concept that we just need to be nice to everybody.
I've been told I'm one who has been placed on "ignore" so maybe you'll unignore me at some point and you'll read this.
With all due respect and to be nice, you should listen to your doctors, find someone who will teach you what eating right means, because it's obvious from your other posts that you don't know even though you think you do, and you should find new doctors who actually provide not only the latest and best testing, but also provide proper medication and nutritional guidance for your condition. There have been specialized cancer centers for decades that focus on nutrition with good success.
Other than that, and again with all due respect, you should seek counseling for your emotional condition. Seek such from someone in Christ in Spirit who can work with you to help you properly understand and utilize the gifts within us from God.
The Christian Faith is not about being nice to everybody. It's about telling them the Truth and at times this can be or seem harsh.
i call it "theological sentimentalism". i'm sure some brainiac has come up with a better name, but, yeah. it can be difficult to read the scriptures and accept what they say when it, uh, hurts our feelings to do so.
Just repeating a statement I enjoyed.
When the discussion is about God's Grace, I also always recall to mind the Titus2 Scripture you posted, mainly because of the rest of what Paul says there:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. (Tit. 2:11-15 NKJ)
So much of the discussion re: Grace seems to bypass this part of it that speaks about its part in bringing us to maturity in Christ in Spirit as one of God's goals for us in Salvation in preparation for being done here.
Thanks for the comments.
Maybe you should answer this question, if God can efficaciously save one human being, why does He not save all?
Why has He chosen to create a world where some (many, most) perish, when He might have created a world where only one—or even none—perish? Why hell?
The thought that there are things we can't know causes what is revealed to be in doubt is ludicrous. The secret things are indeed hidden, but that which is revealed is for us that we may know God and live our lives to the fullest. If what some are saying is true, then we can be sure of nothing. And yet they seem to be able to speak authoritatively about having no truth. To me it is oxymoronic to say we can't know what we do know that has been revealed by God.
i think this thread is another good example of why, in the olden days, it was said philosophy should be the handmaid of theology, and not the other way around. there's a whole lot of philosophy here lol.
we can still love one another, though... i hope.
Not hard to answer. Because God is glorified in all His attributes equally. He is just as glorified in love, grace, and mercy as He is in justice, sovereignty, omnipotence, and righteousness.
God is most glorified as He is known. And the more He is made known, the greater He appears. To know only some of God is to worship Him partially. But to understand and know God in more of His true reality, is to worship Him more fully.
God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him. How are we fully satisfied in a God we only know partly. Eternal life is knowing God the Father and God the Son.
I can appreciate that people want a God who is only loving, and gracious, and merciful. But this is not the God of the Bible.