Did Jesus and Paul teach differnt gospels?

Marcelo · Oct 5, 2019

So let's stick to the terminology used in the O.P.: Jesus and Paul

Jesus - Words of the Lord during His walk on earth (including the period after the resurrection and before the ascension)

Paul - Words of risen Jesus (relayed to us by Paul)

Jesus said: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone rich to enter heaven.

Paul said: Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

Melach · Oct 5, 2019

FollowtheShepherd said:

Here is a little info, the historical stuff comes from Ebonite writings and may or may not be accurate, however there is more than one instance in the word that is shown below that talks about this same type of thing and upon inspection it seems like the same incident to me.

Well as Peter said in the Ephesus trial of Paul recorded in history by an Ebionite writing, we can not comfirm or deny if Jesus appeared to him" Now no matter if that is even fully accurate or not, this does matter:

If people knew and applied the word it would help, one can not testify on their own behalf to SETTLE a case or prove a fact. 2 or more witnesses are needed.

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

Paul is the only one that calls himself an apostle/disciple, 2 Peter calls him a brother and is in line with what the Ebionite writings say about Paul's trial in Ephesusand he himself eludes to:

2 Timothy 4:14-17,14 Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will pay him back for what he did."15 You, too, must watch out for him, for he violently opposed our message."16 At my first trial no one came to my defense. Everyone abandoned me. May it not be held against them!"17 However, the Lord stood by me and gave me strength so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the gentiles could hear it. I was rescued out of a lion’s mouth."

2 Timothy 1:15-18,15 You know that everyone in Asia has abandoned me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes."16 May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus, for he often took care of me and was not ashamed that I was a prisoner."17 Instead, when he arrived in Rome he searched diligently for me and found me."18 May the Lord grant that he finds mercy on the day he comes again. You know very well how much he assisted me in Ephesus."

Interesting this Ephesus is in Asia.

Revelation 1:10-11, " 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

"which are in Asia; unto Ephesus"

Acts 19:1,8-9, “1, It was while Apollos was in Corinth that Paul passed through the inland districts and came to Ephesus. He found a few disciples there 8, "He went into the synagogue and spoke there boldly for three months, holding discussions and persuading those who heard him about the kingdom of God. 9, "But when some people became stubborn, refused to believe, and slandered the Way in front of the people, Paul left them, taking his disciples away with him, and held daily discussions in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.”

"came to Ephesus...But when some people became stubborn, refused to believe, and slandered the Way in front of the people, Paul left them"

Revelation 2:1-3, " 1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary.

To me it is worth investigation when people are telling me Jesus words are no more and another speaks in Jesus place now.

how can i find this ebionite writing where trial is recoded?

Nehemiah6 · Oct 5, 2019

Marcelo said:

Instead of saying that Paul did *wrong* why should we not believe that the leading apostle of Christ (who wrote more than half the New Testament) was led by the Holy Spirit to circumcise Timothy?

1. Timothy was Paul's son in the faith, and Paul was his mentor and constant companion. In fact Timothy was like a son to him.

2. Timothy was half-Jewish already (having a Jewish mother and grandmother), and had been raised on the Hebrew Tanakh (*the Holy Scriptures*). We know nothing about his father as such (other than the fact that he was a Greek, which could also mean a Hellenistic Jew).

3. In all his missionary journeys, Paul went first to the Jewish synagogues in every city he visited. Even though he was the apostle to the Gentiles, this was always his first order of business. So to enter the synagogues legitimately, one needed to be a Jew.

4. To the Jews Paul became a Jew in order to win them to Christ. Thus he was led to present Timothy as a circumcised Hebrew Christian (just like himself).

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law (1 Cor 9:19,20)

Him [Timothy] would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek. (Acts 16:3)

5. Paul's teaching on the value of circumcision for the sake of salvation (as in Romans and Galatians) is a separate issue altogether. The Judaizers insisted on this false teaching, which had to be refuted. It has no connection to the above.

FollowtheShepherd · Oct 5, 2019

Melach said:

Also in the Dead Sea Scrolls thre is a Habbakuk commentary that places Paul as the subject and a recording of Paul speaking very badly about James, I do not find this to be impossible since Paul speaks badly of James, Peter and John in Galatians 2;

when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars

seemed G1380 δοκέω dokeo (d̮o-ke'-ō) v., 1. to suppose, consider, imagine., 2. (by implication) to seem (truthfully or uncertainly)., 3. (by inference) to presume., 4. (also) to repute or estimate., 5. (by extension) to be of reputation, estimable. {(used only in an alternate in certain tenses)} [a prolonged form of a primary verb, δόκω dốkō of the same meaning],

their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel

Galatians 2:4-14, " 4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

There is also more to the trial and historical evidence that agrees with Biblical evidence.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 5, 2019

Melach said:

Keep in mind (as you read that also, if you do), what Jesus had also stated just before His death (not to mention the Matt22:7[70ad] -v.8[THEN SAITH HE] SEQUENCE

). I wrote this on Thursday (Post #168 of another thread):

Also, when he'd said "you are the seal of mine apostleship" (1Cor9:2) what that means (and that those were "plural" people

)... and pretty much the entire epistle of 2Cor is Paul vindicating his apostleship (in chpt 13:5, the passage many people misapply, Paul is essentially saying to them, if you are "in the faith" [and he knows their internal response is "YES, WE ARE!"] then this is the proof... THEY [PLURAL] are the PROOF!). And besides all this, many do not grasp what Paul is conveying to Timothy in 2Tim2:2-9[10],7... but that's the topic for another thread.

FollowtheShepherd · Oct 5, 2019

Melach said:

This and the other stuff I meantioned, and I assue there is more I don't know about can be found in 2 Dead Sea Scroll documents, Josephus, and (this one is not as trustworhty but there is reason I mention it, because the DSS were found recently, but) the Clementine Homilies (were from around the year 200 I think, and support some of what the DSS documents say) This can be validated by comparing what Peter says to how Paul responds in statements we find in Acts chapters 22 and 26. There is more information I have compiled in my search for truth but I have like 120+ pages maybe 150+ pages of related information and I don't know where every note, quote or reference is. Also know that there are things I don;t feel comfortable saying beucase I honeslty do have my view, but I truly seek so i don;t just just on any words I find. Prayer, study and discernment are key.

I don't think this is an accident becasue only Paul calls himself an apostle, and the meat sacrificed to idols Paul says is ok but Jesus says it is not ok.

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

1 Corinthians 8:7-8, "However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do."

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."

FollowtheShepherd · Oct 5, 2019

John 16:12-15,12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you."15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”

What were these “things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now” Were they Paul’s writings or something else? I believe it is the book of Revelation. In every writing since Jesus ascension in Acts the only time Jesus is directly speaking is in the book of Revelation, therefore it would fall directly under this statement “I still have many things to say to you,”. Also the content in the book of Revelation is definitely hard to bear:

Revelation 1:10, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.” 1-3, “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.”

Also remember nothing abolishes the words of Jesus:

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

Following His words are a solid foundation “the rock” Not following His words are a shaky foundation “the sand” Did Deut 18:18-19, Acts 3 and 7 tell us God would send a Prophet and Him we must hear and obey or that another would speak on this Prophets behalf? Did Jesus change after He died? Was there a new doctrine? Many are told yes. The Jesus clearly says no.

John 14:25-26, 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which God will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Jesus) have said to you.”

FollowtheShepherd · Oct 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

That is not a valid seal, Duet 13 and 2 or more witnesses is. None witness to Paul's apostleship other than himself. Not Jesus not the 12. Also it takes a credible witness, testified of by God, Jesus, someone they have chosen or someone verified by GOod. Im am sure thatere are a lot of people that will testify that Joseph Prince is "sent of God."

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

Marcelo · Oct 5, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Instead of saying that Paul did *wrong* why should we not believe that the leading apostle of Christ (who wrote more than half the New Testament) was led by the Holy Spirit to circumcise Timothy?

1. Timothy was Paul's son in the faith, and Paul was his mentor and constant companion. In fact Timothy was like a son to him.

2. Timothy was half-Jewish already (having a Jewish mother and grandmother), and had been raised on the Hebrew Tanakh (*the Holy Scriptures*). We know nothing about his father as such (other than the fact that he was a Greek, which could also mean a Hellenistic Jew).

3. In all his missionary journeys, Paul went first to the Jewish synagogues in every city he visited. Even though he was the apostle to the Gentiles, this was always his first order of business. So to enter the synagogues legitimately, one needed to be a Jew.

4. To the Jews Paul became a Jew in order to win them to Christ. Thus he was led to present Timothy as a circumcised Hebrew Christian (just like himself).

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law (1 Cor 9:19,20)

Him [Timothy] would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek. (Acts 16:3)

5. Paul's teaching on the value of circumcision for the sake of salvation (as in Romans and Galatians) is a separate issue altogether. The Judaizers insisted on this false teaching, which had to be refuted. It has no connection to the above.

Your perception of Timothy's circumcision is better than mine.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 5, 2019

FollowtheShepherd said:

This is why I put the "Matt22:7[70ad] - v.8[THEN SAITH HE] SEQUENCE" thing. And that the "servants" being spoken of are the [future] "144,000 [of the singular nation Israel]" (the "proleptic 'ye/you'" of the OLIVET DISCOURSE [answering to what He'd ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49,50 re: "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" aka their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, promised TO THEM--Later, "guests [the Gentiles]" WILL BE being "INVITED" ['the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/=MK] all through the [future] trib yrs [FOLLOWING our Rapture], per Matt22:8-14 [notoriously misapplied to NOW]).

I could say more...

But yes, Paul's ministry pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (2Cor11:2 the SINGULAR "A CHASTE VIRGIN" not the PLURAL ones! [10 or 5! of the Olivet Discourse (re: "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" Matt25:10 etc, NOT "the MARRIAGE"!)])

FollowtheShepherd · Oct 5, 2019

PennEd said:

Obey Jesus is not required?

John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”

Matthew 10:37-39, “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 “And he who does not take up his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 “He who has found his life shall lose it, and he that has lost his life for My sake shall find it.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John 14:21, “he who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and manifest Myself to him.”

John 14:23-24, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Matthew 16:24-27, " 24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 25:31-46, " 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Doctrine deviod of what Jesus says formed from Paul is what led me to begin looking into this.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 5, 2019

"The Church which is His body" will not exist on the earth (in our mortal/unchanged bodies) "IN THE LAST DAY" (which is more than a singular 24-hr day); we will have already experienced our "change" at "our Rapture/Departure" PRIOR to its commencing

See my Post #174 in another thread (bottom half of post): https://christianchat.com/threads/w...ed-in-prophecy-see-rev-12.187277/post-4040904

FollowtheShepherd · Oct 5, 2019

PennEd said:

Romans 10:9-10, “If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.”

Mat 7:21, “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.”

PennEd said:

The gospel is more than the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The gospel is also what He taught.

Luke 5:31-32, " 31 And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

2 John 1:9-11, " 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

John 14:23-26, “Jesusanswered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”

John 10:16, “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd.”

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words (teachings) will not pass away.”

Also you never answered my question about Jesus words in John 5:28-29.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

See my Post #174 in another thread (bottom half of post): https://christianchat.com/threads/w...ed-in-prophecy-see-rev-12.187277/post-4040904

...where Heb9:8-9 speaks of "a parable for the present time" (and "NOT YET MANIFEST")

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 5, 2019

...and Ephesians 1:10 is not speaking of "in this present age [singular]" (like the rest of the epistle is), as so many do not grasp.

[and 1Cor15:24's "THEN the end" is NOT using a "then" word that has a time-element attached with it, it is ONLY a "sequence" word (so this is not stating "Then IMMEDIATELY the end," in this context)<--this covers "IN THE LAST DAY"... the same shall judge him IN THE LAST DAY (that TIME PERIOD)]

PennEd · Oct 5, 2019

FollowtheShepherd said:

Romans 10:9-10, “If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.”

Mat 7:21, “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.”

The gospel is more than the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The gospel is also what He taught.

Luke 5:31-32, " 31 And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

2 John 1:9-11, " 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

John 14:23-26, “Jesusanswered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”

John 10:16, “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd.”

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words (teachings) will not pass away.”

Also you never answered my question about Jesus words in John 5:28-29.

There is MORE to the Gospel. For sure.

But the Gospel unto Salvation is SOLELY what HE did. His death and resurrection.

There are 2 elements of Romans 10:9-10. Confession AND belief. We can only see the confession part. We can't see whether a person truly believes.

Those people who hear "I NEVER knew you". Trusted in THEIR works. In THEIR obedience. That's why Jesus says He NEVER knew them. NOT that He knew them, (made them a new creation with a new heart) and that did, or didn't do something to lose what HE gave them. HE NEVER KNEW THEM!

FollowtheShepherd · Oct 5, 2019

PennEd said:

Romans 10:9-10, “If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.”

Jesus says different:

Mat 7:21, “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.”

What about all these verse that deal with entering the kingdom/eternal life? This is the reason why I started this, because people that nearly only quote Paul and ignore all these things Jesus said have a doctrine way different than Jesus:

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:31-46, " 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.......45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”

Matthew 10:37-39, “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 “And he who does not take up his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 “He who has found his life shall lose it, and he that has lost his life for My sake shall find it.”

John 14:23-24, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Matthew 16:24-27, " 24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 25:31-46, " 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Also you never answered my question about Jesus words in John 5:28-29.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 5, 2019

FollowtheShepherd said:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, having been born of a woman, having been born under the Law, that He might redeem those under the Law, so that we might receive 'the divine adoption of sons' [the 'son-placement']." Galatians 4:4-5 (but since you do not believe Paul could have been writing this under God's authority, this is just merely some good advice from Paul to be accepted or rejected as you like, right?? "Still-under-Law" is the rule of the day, according to you, right??)

I believe this is speaking of the "IN THAT DAY"/"the DAY OF THE LORD [TIME PERIOD]" ["IN HIS TIME"] that 2Th2:3-12 refers to... (connecting with other passages I've listed before)

PennEd · Oct 5, 2019

My time here on CC has shown me many truths. An important one is that those who trust in ANYTHING other than what Jesus Christ has done, whether works, obedience, or some type of mixture of Jesus PLUS something, are either unsaved, or immature, baby Christians.

I know how that sounds, but it's the truth. Be Blessed!

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 5, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

^ aka (this falls within the time period known as) "IN THE LAST DAY" (NOT a singular 24-hr day) [again, "the Church which is His body" will not be present on the earth in our mortal/unchanged bodies, during that time period being spoken of!]

Did Jesus and Paul teach differnt gospels?

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