Daniel 8

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Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,304
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#81
Wipe out Islam? 1.8 Billion people spread throughout the whole world.
Yes, can't you see why sister? Pause and think a bit here, if you were in charge of STRATEGY for a One World Gov. {this is way fun:cool:} what would be your very first move? REMEMBER, you can be more ruthless than Hitler, Lenin or Mao, you can be as cold as ice, a pure barbarian, what is your first move IF you are going to demand that ALL MEN [women] Worship you as the ONLY God? Cue Jeopardy tune, ..........................................:coffee:..................................................:coffee:

The very first move by a Brilliant tactician, which this man will be because he understands DARK SENTENCES {Dan. 8:25/Riddles} and thus he understands the very first move he needs to make is to WIPE OUT Islam, they blow people up today for believing in Jesus Christ, they are not going to ever worship a man as a diety !! So his first move, AFTER the Rapture of the Christian Church, where we all die, and our Spirit men go to heaven, will be to deceive the Muslim Nations VIA Peace like Dan. 8:25 says, then he will Conquer them and slay the ones who refuse to worship him as God. This is THE HARLOT {All False Religion of All Time equals the Harlot} that gets Destroyed by the 10 Kings in Rev. 17:16, NOTICE, in verse 17 it says they did the will of God. This is God's Judgment of the Great Harlot, she has to DIE OFF in order for there to be a ONE WORLD Religion that all men are ordered to worship, there can't be any Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Witchcraft, he even chases the Jews who become Messianic Jews into the Wilderness trying to kill them, and he slays the Remnant Church {Gentiles who come to Christ AFTER the Rapture, many were the 5 foolish virgins who tarried}. So the Genius move is to break their backs before they understand what is going on and to come in hard and heave in them because they will fight to the death.

There is a Beast man yes. There is also a beast empire. Surely you haven't overlooked that?

That is clear in all the prophets and in Revelation.
Daniel and Revelation spell it out with specifics.
This is very true sister in all cases EXCEPT the last Beast. God expressly wants us to know the Last Beast is not a Kingdom, but ONE MAN who arises and then falls. That is why the Beast is described as a MAN in Daniel 7:11 and Rev. 19:20. The most important clue comes to us from Rev. 17. God REDUCES the Kingdoms from Seven Kingdoms to 7 Kings who Arise and then FALL. He says 5 Have already fallen, ONE IS........and one is YET TO COME. So why does God SWITCH it from Kingdoms to Kings who FALL? Because He wants us to know that the LAST BEAST is not a Kingdom per se, but ONE MAN, who is the only Beast who both ARISES {Mountain} and FALLS, none of the other Beasts did this, they were all indeed Kings who AROSE like/as Mountains above the plains, but they then passed their Kingdoms on to others and thus all the other Beasts were indeed Kingdoms, THIS MAN, will not pass his Kingdom on, He Conquers Israel and the MANY [Nations] in the Mediterranean Sea Region, then he rules for only 42 Monts but never passes his Kingdom on to another, so he both ARISES and FALLS unlike any of the Other Beasts thus this LAST BEAST is a Man, the Beast is thus described unto us in Rev. 13 as a MAN...........Thus it is the Number of a man, and that number is 666 (I don't think the man has a name that matches the Number, I think the 666 Represents him being a MAN as in 666 = MANKIND and 777 = God.)

While I agree, all the others were Empires, God calls this MAN the Beast in Rev. 19:20 and Daniel 7:11. And in Rev. 13 he gets the moniker of 666. Finally, in Rev. 17 God reduces the 7 Kingdoms to 7 Kings for a reason, to let us know the Last Beast is a MAN.

The EU, however horrible, is a political union made up of 27 26 :) member states. All Christian nations. It simply doesn't fit.
None of those Nations are of God sister, don't kid yourself. The USA is under Satan's control. Look at Luke 4, Satan showed Jesus all of the Kingdoms of the whole world and stated they were his to do with as he pleased. The E,U. are far more ungodly than the USA, think East Coast and West Coast, that is how Europe is in actuality. Israel was also a Jewish nation, but they killed Jesus and couldn't see he was God come in the flesh. As per the number of Nations, 10 is used as a COMPLETE NUMBER {fill in the blank} of things being spoken of via God's Prophecies. So 10 can mean and often does mean ALL THAT'S BEING SPOKEN OF.......So the 27 or 26 nations can be represented by the number 10. This is well known in Prophecy's sister.

7 heads and ten horns is what you should be looking for.
Well, I could, but I already know what that means. The Seven Heads are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, then Rome received the MORTAL WOUND, and God thus locked up Apollyon for the duration of the Church Age, in the Bottomless Pit. Once Israel became a Nation again the countdown began, the Beast can now LIVE AGAIN, but only after the Church has been Raptured, because that starts the 70th week, and during that 70gth week Israel must REPENT, then Gid will protect the 1/3 of the Jews who repent AND Flee Judea unto Petra. The 2/3 who do not repent will perish. Once the 10 Kings give their power unto the Anti-Christ he Conquers Jerusalem and THE MANY to become the Mediterranean Sea Beast once again.

Rev. 12 is the Dragon...........Rev. 13 is The Anti-Christ.........Rev. 17 is about Apollyon, the Scarlet Colored Beast. The CROWNS tells the story in each case. In Rev. 12 the SEVEN CROWNS are on the Seven Heads. In Rev, 13 the 10 Horns have the CROWNS on them, they are ruled by the Anti-Christ Beast. In Rev. 17 there are NO CROWNS at all because his Kingdom is not of this world, but he's the King of the Bottomless Pit. This he {Apollyon} was OF THE SEVEN.........but is an 8th.

The Bible isn't a Eurocentric book. It isn't about the USA or Europe. It's a thoroughly Mid-East focused story. Israel and the surrounding nations.
And this Gentile King born in Greece and running the E.U. being over the Mediterranean Sea Region is NO DIFFERENT from Babylon, Persia, Greece or Rome being a BEAST over the Region before the Anti-Christ is a Beast over the Region. This MANS Land Mass will be the exact same Land Mass as the Roman Empires Land Mass, thus he arises out of the Fourth Kingdoms HEAD....He looks like Papa !!

The beast you are looking for is an empire ridden by an anti-christ religion that is drunk on the blood of the saints.
The Harlot RIDES the Beast, not the other way around. She is ALL FASE RELIGIONS of All Time, she is REPLACED by the False Prophet who BEASTS over Religions whilst THE BEAST {Anti-Christ} rules over the World Governments !! The Harlot FALSE RELIGIONS have been co-mingled with the Government Beasts for time immemorial, False Religion RIDES the Gov. Beasts back !! Co-mingled until there comes a time when the LAST BEAST doesn't want many religions, he wants to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! Thus he must DESTROY the Harlot False Religions, thus Islam has to go, as does Hinduism and Buddhism. The Harlot is thus KILLED OFF, Islam is WIPED OUT and thus Judged by God, see Rev. 17:1, God JUDGES the Harlot !! If people had obeyed God, they wouldn't have killed his Prophets and Saints !! But instead, they worshiped false gods!

An empire that is a geographical composite of Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Persia, & Ancient Greece. The Islamic Caliphate is the ONLY empire controlled by a religious-law system that has dominated the region and heavily persecuted Israel and Christians. You can't change that fact. It's 1400 years of Middle Eastern history. The head of the Caliphate was removed in 1924. All seven heads of the beast are encompassed by the Islamic empire. Put the round peg in the round hole. It's not off-kilter. Nothing else fits scripture like it. EVERY nation mentioned prophetically in judgement BY NAME is today Islamic.
Islam will be WIPED OUT Sister. You have the Islamic angle all wrong, just like the other side has the RCC angle all wrong Satan is very good at head fakes. There has been NO BEAST fir 2000 some odd years, God saw Israel as DEAD MEN'S BONES, thus they were dead unto Gd, thus they could not be BEASTED over by anyone until 1948, and as you can see, no one has been able to Conquer them yet because God has fought for them. They will not get Conquered until AFTER the Rapture of the Church. Then the BEAST Arises again, his Wound is healed !! I have been doing this 35 years sister, it's my calling.

God Bless, chat with you later, maybe tomorrow, God willing.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#82
No use in me even trying with you. You do not answer anything, I guess you can't rebut my replies so you just pretend I didn't inform you of things that totally disprove your concept brother. If you aren't, going to answer why bother replying?

And yes, Daniel 11 goes hand in hand with Dan. 7 and 8. The Anti-Christ comes out of both the Fourth Beast and one of the Four Generals Kingdom {Greece} at the same time. Ever wonder why do we get such a DETAILED RUNDOWN of the Greek Kings in Daniel 11 ? Because the Anti-Christ's LINEAGE is of Greece !! He's born in Greece. So in summary, he's born in Greece, comes to power in the E.U. centric Kingdom, and he is an Assyrian [Turk], Greece has a common border with Turkey, so a lot of Turks live in Greece.

The goat has NOTHING to do with the Prophecy past verse 8, it's all about the Anti-Christ after that. The Goat was Alexander the Great, again, just ignoring all the facts I posted about why Dan. 8's stern king can't be Antiochus, doesn't change the facts brother. Who cares who is right? We all just see darkly, until God reveals truth unto us.

God Bless......sleep well brother.
I rebutted yur replies multiple times

you going to daniel 11. Daniel 11 is a whole different passage speaking of different things

the topic of this thread is daniel 8. The ram and the goat. I have explained who they are, and explained in great detail where I came up with that conclusion

you want to make something about rome when it has to do with greece, and the 4 kings who took over when Alexander the Great died, and little one of those 4 kings who happened to recieve the promised land as his kingdom.

its still the goat, it did not change, it’s not rome or the future kingdom
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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136
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#83
Introduction to the vision in the Kingdom of Babylon:
Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.​

The Vision Begins:

Dan 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.​

The First Beast seen in the Vision is the Ram with Two Horns, pushing in three directions, West, North and South, and it becomes "great":
Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.​
Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.​

The Second Beast seen in the Vision is the He-Goat, coming from the West, with a notable horn, and it attacks the Ram, defeats it, and becomes "very great":

Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.​
Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.​
Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.​
Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: ...​

The notable horn in the He-Goat becomes broken, and four notable ones replace it, facing the four cardinal directions (North, South, East and West):
Dan 8:8 ... and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.​

Let's pause here and make sure we've understood up to this point.

We now turn to the explanation as given by Gabriel, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost/Spirit to Daniel, and Gabriel begins:

Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.​
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.​
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.​
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.​
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.​

What is the Ram, and what are the two horns upon it? Gabriel says:

Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.​

What is the He-goat, and what is the great horn thereon? Gabriel says:

Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.​

What happens to the great horn, and what are the four notable ones that take its place on the He-Goat?

Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.​

Does anyone disagree, with what has just been presented? In other words, are we all agreed in the symbols used in the Vision, as recorded, and in their interpretation, as given by Gabriel, as also recorded?

In Daniel 2 we find the same key elements:

Gold - Babylon (*)
Silver - Medo-Persia (**)
Brass - Greece (which becomes divided, thighs) (***)

In Daniel 7 we find the same key elements:

Lion with Eagles Wings - Babylon
Bear raised up with 3 ribs in mouth - Medo-Persia
Leopard with 4 heads and 4 wings of fowl - Greece (with division seen in the 4 heads)

In Daniel 9-12 we find the same key elements

Belshazzar - Babylon (Daniel 9)
Darius the Mede/Cyrus the Persian (etc) - Medo-Persia (Daniel 10-11)
A mighty king - Greece (with division seen towards the four winds) (Daniel 11)
This same ordering is found in Isaiah & Jeremiah, 2 Chronicles 36; Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther:

Gold and Lion and Eagle - Babylon - 2 Chronicles 36:6-21; Isaiah 13:19, 14:4; Jeremiah 4:7, 49:19-22, 50:17​
Medo-Persia, Persia-Media - 2 Chronicles 23:22-23; Ezra 1:1, 6:14, 7:1-28 (whole); Nehemiah (whole); Esther (whole); Isaiah 13:17, 21:2, 44:27-28, 45:1-3, 51:8-11,28-29; Daniel 5:25-31, 6:8, 9:1, 10:1, 11:1; 2 Chronicles 36​
Greece/Javan/Isles of the Sea - Esther 10:1; Daniel 10:20, 11:2-4; Ezekiel 27:13​
This same ordering is found (in reverse, looking back) in Revelation 13:2 (more on this connection later),

Leopard
Bear
Lion
Notations:
(*) Nebuchadnezzar, EvilMerodach, NergalSharezer, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, Belshazzar
(**) Darius the Mede, Cyrus II (East), Cambyses II, False Smerdis, Darius I Hystaspes, Xerxes I, ArtaXerxesI, Xerxes II, Sogdianus, Darius II, ArtaXerxes II Mnemon, ArtaXerxes III, ArtaXerxes IV Arses, Darius III Codomannus
(***) Alexander III the Great (West) (Alexander IV Aegus, Philip III of Macedon/'Arrihidaeus'), Diadochi - eventually down to four major (Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy (South), Seleucus (North) dynasties (while Antigonus lasted a some time, but eventually defeated))
Does anyone disagree, with what has just been presented? In other words, are we all agreed in the symbols used in the Vision, as recorded, and in their interpretation, as given by Gabriel, as also recorded, and so also elsewhere identified in that same order, and in some instances with the same symbolism, as with Babylon/Nebuchadnezzar?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#84
I agree

the little horn is one of those 4 hours, gabriel focuses on that horn because that horn actually concerns jerusalem.

if we look at all prophecy it either concerns the coming of the lord, where? Jerusalem

the destruction and trampling of a certain parcel of land, where? jerusalem

and the coming and goings, the sin and the redemption and the restoration of a people.. where? Jerusalem.

the little horn of Dan 8 is a precursor or symbolic of the little horn mentioned later, who is a little horn who comes out of a ten beast or ten horn system (see also revelation) who will do the same thing and cut off or put an end to sacrifice by the abomination that makes desolate,
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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#85
Are you agreeing with my post? If you might reply to it, and say, as it will help me to know whom is speaking to whom. :)

the little horn is one of those 4 hours ...
I have not directly covered anything beyond the breaking of the notable horn into the four horns, as of yet. So the "little horn" is not yet covered or discussed in my post (vss 8 (very end), 9-14, and vss 23-27). We need to move slowly, and consider the text carefully. I do not desire to rush, and I do not desire anyone to be confused as to what we all are agreeing or disagreeing on. If we may move one step at a time. Let's see if there are any who disagree with my last post, before we move on together.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#86
Are you agreeing with my post? If you might reply to it, and say, as it will help me to know whom is speaking to whom. :)

I have not directly covered anything beyond the breaking of the notable horn into the four horns, as of yet. So the "little horn" is not yet covered or discussed in my post (vss 8 (very end), 9-14, and vss 23-27). We need to move slowly, and consider the text carefully. I do not desire to rush, and I do not desire anyone to be confused as to what we all are agreeing or disagreeing on. If we may move one step at a time. Let's see if there are any who disagree with my last post, before we move on together.
Yes I was agreeing with you

and we have slowly been over the rest of the passage many times already in this thread. That’s why I mentioned it as a warning, if your going to say it is something else I will not and can not agree with you, even the part you already covered has been discussed numerous times.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,304
183
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#87
I rebutted yur replies multiple times

you going to daniel 11. Daniel 11 is a whole different passage speaking of different things

the topic of this thread is daniel 8. The ram and the goat. I have explained who they are, and explained in great detail where I came up with that conclusion

you want to make something about rome when it has to do with greece, and the 4 kings who took over when Alexander the Great died, and little one of those 4 kings who happened to recieve the promised land as his kingdom.

its still the goat, it did not change, it’s not rome or the future kingdom
The Bible is written by the Holy Spirit via man men....its a continuous book, there were no chapters and verses. God tells us we have to look at the whole bible, that is why people confuse and conflate scriptures, they take polaroid shots but don't see the Mosaic. Here a little, there a little. precept upon precept, law upon law.

Daniel 11 has EVERYTHING to do with why the Daniel 8:9............ON verses are speaking about the End Time AntiChrist. And you have yet to rebut the facts I cited, you just made a claim you were right, well anyone can do that. I pointed out step by step why he can't be Antiochus. It's about Greece AND the Fourth Beast.........Both chapters {7 and 8} call him the EXACT SAME THING, the Little Horn. Its the SAME MAN !!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#88
The Bible is written by the Holy Spirit via man men....its a continuous book, there were no chapters and verses. God tells us we have to look at the whole bible, that is why people confuse and conflate scriptures, they take polaroid shots but don't see the Mosaic. Here a little, there a little. precept upon precept, law upon law.

Daniel 11 has EVERYTHING to do with why the Daniel 8:9............ON verses are speaking about the End Time AntiChrist. And you have yet to rebut the facts I cited, you just made a claim you were right, well anyone can do that. I pointed out step by step why he can't be Antiochus. It's about Greece AND the Fourth Beast.........Both chapters {7 and 8} call him the EXACT SAME THING, the Little Horn. Its the SAME MAN !!
It’s about the goat and the ram

its about media-persia and Greece

he did not call out another beast, that’s your twist,

good day sir,
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,304
183
63
#89
It’s about the goat and the ram
AND who came out of them in the LATTER TIME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AS IT STATES CLEARLY.

its about media-persia and Greece
Same as ABOVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he did not call out another beast, that’s your twist,
The Litte Hoen is called A BEAST..........Read Dan. 7:11..........is it not there ?

I don't have a twist, I am a preacher who has spent 35 years on Prophecy Specified endeavors. We have way too many people in the church who are feet or arms trying to be legs.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
43
#90
Introduction to the vision in the Kingdom of Babylon:
...​

Does anyone disagree, with what has just been presented? In other words, are we all agreed in the symbols used in the Vision, as recorded, and in their interpretation, as given by Gabriel, as also recorded?

In Daniel 2 we find the same key elements:

Gold - Babylon (*)
Silver - Medo-Persia (**)
Brass - Greece (which becomes divided, thighs) (***)

In Daniel 7 we find the same key elements:

Lion with Eagles Wings - Babylon
Bear raised up with 3 ribs in mouth - Medo-Persia
Leopard with 4 heads and 4 wings of fowl - Greece (with division seen in the 4 heads)

In Daniel 9-12 we find the same key elements

Belshazzar - Babylon (Daniel 9)
Darius the Mede/Cyrus the Persian (etc) - Medo-Persia (Daniel 10-11)
A mighty king - Greece (with division seen towards the four winds) (Daniel 11)
This same ordering is found in Isaiah & Jeremiah, 2 Chronicles 36; Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther:

Gold and Lion and Eagle - Babylon - 2 Chronicles 36:6-21; Isaiah 13:19, 14:4; Jeremiah 4:7, 49:19-22, 50:17​
Medo-Persia, Persia-Media - 2 Chronicles 23:22-23; Ezra 1:1, 6:14, 7:1-28 (whole); Nehemiah (whole); Esther (whole); Isaiah 13:17, 21:2, 44:27-28, 45:1-3, 51:8-11,28-29; Daniel 5:25-31, 6:8, 9:1, 10:1, 11:1; 2 Chronicles 36​
Greece/Javan/Isles of the Sea - Esther 10:1; Daniel 10:20, 11:2-4; Ezekiel 27:13​
This same ordering is found (in reverse, looking back) in Revelation 13:2 (more on this connection later),

Leopard
Bear
Lion
Notations:
(*) Nebuchadnezzar, EvilMerodach, NergalSharezer, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, Belshazzar
(**) Darius the Mede, Cyrus II (East), Cambyses II, False Smerdis, Darius I Hystaspes, Xerxes I, ArtaXerxesI, Xerxes II, Sogdianus, Darius II, ArtaXerxes II Mnemon, ArtaXerxes III, ArtaXerxes IV Arses, Darius III Codomannus
(***) Alexander III the Great (West) (Alexander IV Aegus, Philip III of Macedon/'Arrihidaeus'), Diadochi - eventually down to four major (Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy (South), Seleucus (North) dynasties (while Antigonus lasted a some time, but eventually defeated))
Does anyone disagree, with what has just been presented? In other words, are we all agreed in the symbols used in the Vision, as recorded, and in their interpretation, as given by Gabriel, as also recorded, and so also elsewhere identified in that same order, and in some instances with the same symbolism, as with Babylon/Nebuchadnezzar?
So, having covered up to verse 8 of the vision, we can now take a look at two things that follow after.

It seems all are basically agreed on the points given previously (quoted), but disagreement enters at vs. 9 and after of the vision.

So we need to carefully consider vs 9:
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.​

The first thing we notice in vs 9, is a plural 'pronoun' - "them", as in "And out of one of them ..."

A 'pronoun' always refers back to a previous 'noun' (person, place or thing).

The immediate context of vs 9, is the previous verse, vs 8:

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.​

The plural pronoun shows that it cannot refer back to a singular noun, which eliminates the (singular) "he goat", and "the great horn" as options.

In looking at vs 8, there are two options (and possibly three) that the plural pronoun "them" can be referring to. Here they are:

[1] "four notable ones" (ie the lesser horns)​
[2] "four winds of heaven" (ie four cardinal directions, north, south, east and west)​
[3] both (four notable ones) and (four winds of heaven)​

"ones" (ie lesser horns) is plural, and so is "winds".

Let's consider these options in context, and in linguistics and see which option is true. This we shall look at in the next reply.

Another item to consider is found in vs 13:

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?​

We notice the specific question, of "How long shall be the vision ..."

A question we need to ask, is, what did "the vision" of Daniel 8, begin with?, and we can then get an idea of the time or length of the vision, from its beginning, unto its ending.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
43
#92
So, having covered up to verse 8 of the vision, we can now take a look at two things that follow after.

It seems all are basically agreed on the points given previously (quoted), but disagreement enters at vs. 9 and after of the vision.

So we need to carefully consider vs 9:
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.​

The first thing we notice in vs 9, is a plural 'pronoun' - "them", as in "And out of one of them ..."

A 'pronoun' always refers back to a previous 'noun' (person, place or thing).

The immediate context of vs 9, is the previous verse, vs 8:

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.​

The plural pronoun shows that it cannot refer back to a singular noun, which eliminates the (singular) "he goat", and "the great horn" as options.

In looking at vs 8, there are two options (and possibly three) that the plural pronoun "them" can be referring to. Here they are:

[1] "four notable ones" (ie the lesser horns)​
[2] "four winds of heaven" (ie four cardinal directions, north, south, east and west)​
[3] both (four notable ones) and (four winds of heaven)​

"ones" (ie lesser horns) is plural, and so is "winds".

Let's consider these options in context, and in linguistics and see which option is true. This we shall look at in the next reply.

Another item to consider is found in vs 13:

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?​

We notice the specific question, of "How long shall be the vision ..."

A question we need to ask, is, what did "the vision" of Daniel 8, begin with?, and we can then get an idea of the time or length of the vision, from its beginning, unto its ending.
We have seen that there are 2-3 options in regards "them" of Daniel 8:9. Now here is the linguistic study:

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.​
Dan 8:8 וצפיר העזים הגדיל עד־מאד וכעצמו נשׁברה הקרן הגדולה ותעלנה חזות ארבע תחתיה לארבע רוחות השׁמים׃​
Dan 8:8 ûtz'fiyr häiZiym hig'Diyl ad-m'od ûkh'ätz'mô nish'B'räh haQeren haG'dôläh waTaálenäh chäzût ar'Ba Tach'Teyhä l'ar'Ba rûchôt haSHämäyim
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.​
Dan 8:9 ומן־האחת מהם יצא קרן־אחת מצעירה ותגדל־יתר אל־הנגב ואל־המזרח ואל־הצבי׃​
Dan 8:9 ûmin-häachat mëhem yätzä qeren-achat miTZ'iyräh waTig'Dal-yeter el-haNegev w'el-haMiz'räch w'el-haTZeviy​
The word "winds" (רוחות)(rûchôt) is feminine but attached to "of Heaven" (השׁמים)(haSHämäyim) which is masculine. The words "notable ones" (חזות)(chäzût) is purely feminine, without any masculine associated words. The word "them" (הם)(hem) is purely masculine. This may be seen here - http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/daniel/8.html#9

"Winds" - "from H7306; TWOT - 2131a; n(oun) f(eminine)" - http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/7307.html
"of Heaven" - "from an unused root meaning to be lofty; TWOT - 2407a; n(oun) m(asculine)" - http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/8064.html
"notable ones" - "from H2372; TWOT - 633d; n(oun) f(eminine)" - http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/2380.html
"one of" - "a numeral from H0258; TWOT - 61; adj" - http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/0259.html
"them" - "from H1931; TWOT - pron(oun) 3p (3rd person) m(asculine) p(lural)" - http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/1992.html

This alone, would lead us to the conclusion that the "them" (vs 9) refers back one of the four directions (winds) of "Heaven" (vs 8).

The question may be asked, How can a "little horn" arise out of one of the four winds of Heaven? A "horn" is attached to a beast isn't it?

Not always. A four directional wind, or storm, such as an cyclone, tornado, or hurricane, when seen from the top, has 'arms' that break off from its central point, and trail out, and look sometimes like four 'horns', as for instance:

Bible - Daniel - Four Winds - Four Horns - Primary-Circulation.jpg
Tornado Vector Graphics four directions.jpg
four arm hurricane.jpg
 

WithinReason

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Feb 21, 2020
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#93
...

This alone, would lead us to the conclusion that the "them" (vs 9) refers back one of the four directions (winds) of "Heaven" (vs 8).

The question may be asked, How can a "little horn" arise out of one of the four winds of Heaven? A "horn" is attached to a beast isn't it?

Not always. A four directional wind, or storm, such as an cyclone, tornado, or hurricane, when seen from the top, has 'arms' that break off from its central point, and trail out, and look sometimes like four 'horns', as for instance:

View attachment 212836
View attachment 212837
View attachment 212838
Thus, out of one of the four cardinal directions (N, S, E, W - Daniel 8:8, 11:4; Jeremiah 49:36; Zechariah 2:6, 6:5; Ezra 37:9; Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27 KJB) would come this additional "little horn" (some have understood this in connection with the previous chapters of Daniel, namely chapters 2, 7, 9 and 11 & Revelation 13). This parallels Daniel 11:4

Dan 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.​

Others, in spite of this, still choose to go with a "little horn" out of one of the previous four "horns" (notable ones) and identify that Rome had some connection to Greece [Language [of the NT even; Acts 21:37 KJB, etc], philosophy, etc], and consider the "brass" claws of the Dreadful terrible beast [Daniel 7:19 KJB] and make the connection to from Babylon to Pergamum to Rome [such as this author does [see page 21 PDF] - http://secretsunsealed.org/content/PDF_downloads/All of Pastor Bohr's Study Notes/BSIR7T.pdf ]

Others, like Newton also understood this, and identified the "little horn" as Pagan Rome, which having connection with Asia Minor, Pergamum and even Pella, "... Bp. Newton contends that it is the Roman government that is intended; and although very great at its zenith, yet very little in its rising." (Adam Clarke's commentary).

The Head of the He-Goat was more than likely Pella [Capital city] in Macedon, which is where Rome assaulted:
"... In 168 BC, it [Pella] was sacked by the Romans, and its treasury transported to Rome, and Livy reported how the city looked in 167 BC to Lucius Aemilius Paulus Macedonicus, the Roman who defeated Perseus at the battle of Pydna: ..." - Pella - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella#History

Others still also made the connection to Pagan Rome and its Greco-Roman ties - Link

For instance, that which is cited as historical, in the apocryphal 1 Maccabees 8:9-10 [Bishops Bible 1568]:
1 Maccabees 8:9 Bishops Bible 1568 - Againe, how they perceauing that the Grekes were comming to vexe them,​
1 Maccabees 8:10 Bishops Bible 1568 - Sent against them a captayne of an hoast, which gaue them battaile, slue many of them, led away their wyues and children captiue, spoyled them, toke possession of their lande, and destroyed their strong holdes, and subdued them to be their bondmen, vnto this day.​

While some still attempt to equate the little horn to "Antiochus Ephiphanes IV", we have already seen why that cannot be the case by several concrete and irrefutable points (Link), and it may be now added here, that "Antiochus Epiphanes IV" would be represented by one of the four previous horns, out of the Greek Seleucid/Antiochan dynasty, and would not therefore, be again represented by another 'little horn' out of that dynasty, since he represented at that time the whole of that dynasty.

Let's look at the context a little more, and see that Pagan Rome is the answer, and fits all of the context.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.​
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.​
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.​

Again, "Antiochus Epiphnaes IV" never waxed "exceeding great" "toward the pleasant land". Notice, the whole of the area (land), not merely holding onto Jerusalem (city) and the temple for a brief period.

This "little horn", and both it's phases ([1] "waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land" and [2] "Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down" ) is identified by the angel Gabriel in the following verse:
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.​

Daniel 8:23 is the parallel to Daniel 8:9-11.

We know this, as Daniel 8:12 is immediately parallel to Daniel 8:24, as it uses the same language:

Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.​
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.​

A "king" is not merely a single individual in Daniel, but is also identified in Daniel 7 as "beasts" (political kingdoms, nation states):

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.​
Thus in Daniel 2, we have:

[1] Babylon​
[2] Medo-Persia​
[3] Greece​
[4] Pagan Rome​

Thus in Daniel 7, we have:

[1] Babylon​
[2] Medo-Persia​
[3] Greece​
[4] Pagan Rome​

Thus in Daniel 8, we have:

[1] Babylon (Daniel 8:1)​
[2] Medo-Persia​
[3] Greece​
[4] Pagan Rome​

as we also do in Daniel 10-11:
[1] Babylon (conquered by Darius the mede and Cyrus II)​
[2] Medo-Persia (11:1-2)​
[3] Greece (11:3-19))​
[4] Pagan Rome (Daniel 11:20; tax, broken to pieces and the second phase in Daniel 11:21, "vile person")​

as we also have in Revelation 13 (in reverse):

[1] Pagan Rome​
[2] Greece​
[3] Medo-Persia​
[4] Babylon​
 

WithinReason

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Feb 21, 2020
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#94
Thus, out of one of the four cardinal directions (N, S, E, W - Daniel 8:8, 11:4; Jeremiah 49:36; Zechariah 2:6, 6:5; Ezra 37:9; Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27 KJB) would come this additional "little horn" (some have understood this in connection with the previous chapters of Daniel, namely chapters 2, 7, 9 and 11 & Revelation 13). This parallels Daniel 11:4

...

Let's look at the context a little more, and see that Pagan Rome is the answer, and fits all of the context.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.​
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.​
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.​

Again, "Antiochus Epiphnaes IV" never waxed "exceeding great" "toward the pleasant land". Notice, the whole of the area (land), not merely holding onto Jerusalem (city) and the temple for a brief period.

This "little horn", and both it's phases ([1] "waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land" and [2] "Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down" ) is identified by the angel Gabriel in the following verse:
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.​

Daniel 8:23 is the parallel to Daniel 8:9-11.

We know this, as Daniel 8:12 is immediately parallel to Daniel 8:24, as it uses the same language:

Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.​
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.​

A "king" is not merely a single individual in Daniel, but is also identified in Daniel 7 as "beasts" (political kingdoms, nation states):

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.​
Thus in Daniel 2, we have:

[1] Babylon​
[2] Medo-Persia​
[3] Greece​
[4] Pagan Rome​

Thus in Daniel 7, we have:

[1] Babylon​
[2] Medo-Persia​
[3] Greece​
[4] Pagan Rome​

Thus in Daniel 8, we have:

[1] Babylon (Daniel 8:1)​
[2] Medo-Persia​
[3] Greece​
[4] Pagan Rome​

as we also do in Daniel 10-11:
[1] Babylon (conquered by Darius the mede and Cyrus II)​
[2] Medo-Persia (11:1-2)​
[3] Greece (11:3-19))​
[4] Pagan Rome (Daniel 11:20; tax, broken to pieces and the second phase in Daniel 11:21, "vile person")​

as we also have in Revelation 13 (in reverse):

[1] Pagan Rome​
[2] Greece​
[3] Medo-Persia​
[4] Babylon​
Finally, the words themselves of Daniel 8:23, in parallel to Daniel 8:9-11, are taken from several places. The first phase of the "little horn" is one with "of fierce countenance", which is directly cited from Deuteronomy, and linked to Daniel 7's "terrible and dreadful" (Daniel 7:7) and "strong exceedingly" (Daniel 7:7; "exceeding dreadful" - Daniel 7:19; "exceeding great" - Daniel 8:9), which is Pagan Rome:

Deu 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee (Daniel 9:26, the Romans), in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron (symbol of the Fourth Kingdom, legs of "iron" (Daniel 2:33,40), and teeth of "iron" (Daniel 7:7,19)) upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.​
Deu 28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth (a symbol of Rome; Matthew 24:28; Luke 17:37, 21:20); a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;​
Deu 28:50 A nation of fierce countenance (Daniel 8:23), which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:​
Deu 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee (Rome; Matthew 24:2; Mark 13:2; Luke 19:44, 21:6).​
Deu 28:52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land ("land" - Daniel 8:9): and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.​
Deu 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:​
Deu 28:54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:​
Deu 28:55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.​
Deu 28:56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,​
Deu 28:57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.​
The second phase of this "king" is stated as, "understanding dark sentences". This is tied to understanding of scripture, and parables, a religio-political power of the same nation:

Psa. 49:4, 78:2; Pro. 1:6; Eze. 17:2; Matt. 13:34; Mark 4:13,34,​
see also “mystery[ies]” Matt. 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10; Rom. 11:25, 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:7, 4:1, 13:2, 14:2, 15:51; Eph. 1:9, 3:3,4,5,9, 5:32, 6:19; Col. 1:26,27, 2:2, 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:7; 1 Tim. 3:9,16; Rev. 1:20, 10:7, 17:5,7.​
See also “riddle” in Num. 12:8; Judg. 14:12-19.​
See also “hard questions” in 1 Ki. 10:1; 2 Chron. 9:1.​
See also “...take up a parable … a taunting proverb...” Hab. 2:6;p.​
To speak in proverbs is to speak in symbols, John 16:29 “His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.”, thus, as it is written, Prov. 25:2 “[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.”

Thus, we tie the second phase of the "little horn" of Daniel 8, right back to the several phases of the 4th beast, and specifically to its "little horn" thereof.
 

WithinReason

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#95
...Let's consider these options in context, and in linguistics and see which option is true. This we shall look at in the next reply.

Another item to consider is found in vs 13:

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?​

We notice the specific question, of "How long shall be the vision ..."

A question we need to ask, is, what did "the vision" of Daniel 8, begin with?, and we can then get an idea of the time or length of the vision, from its beginning, unto its ending.
Now we need to move back and consider the other verses also, such as:

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?​

"How long the vision ..."

This question is extremely important to understanding vs 14. Vs 13, asks "How long the vision ...", and the vision itself, begins with the "Ram" (Daniel 8:3), which we all agreed was Medio-Persian (Daniel 8:20). Thus the "How long" includes some timeframe in this kingdom, and last through the He-goat (Daniel 8:5), which we all agreed was Greecia (Daniel 8:21), through unto Greecia's division into 4 (Daniel 8:8,22; Daniel 11:3-19), and beyond into this "little horn['s]" phases.

The answer that the 2,300 is merely normal days is absolutely removed as an option. The "daily" of the Temple was restored in the Medo-Persian Kingdom, see Ezra 6:14; Daniel 9:25, not the Greecian, and the "daily" was not taken away in the Greecian, but was completely removed in the Roman period.

Type and antitype must match.

Natural Israel (after the flesh), in Natural Jerusalem, with the Natural "daily" is "taken away" completely by Natural Babylon.

Spiritual Israel (after the Spirit), in spiritual Jerusalem (above, names written in Heaven, and there by faith), with the spiritual "daily" is completely "taken away" by spiritual Babylon, it is replaced with the "in the place of" (anti) system.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#96
Yes, can't you see why sister? Pause and think a bit here, if you were in charge of STRATEGY for a One World Gov. {this is way fun:cool:} what would be your very first move? REMEMBER, you can be more ruthless than Hitler, Lenin or Mao, you can be as cold as ice, a pure barbarian, what is your first move IF you are going to demand that ALL MEN [women] Worship you as the ONLY God? Cue Jeopardy tune, ..........................................:coffee:..................................................:coffee:

The very first move by a Brilliant tactician, which this man will be because he understands DARK SENTENCES {Dan. 8:25/Riddles} and thus he understands the very first move he needs to make is to WIPE OUT Islam, they blow people up today for believing in Jesus Christ, they are not going to ever worship a man as a diety !! So his first move, AFTER the Rapture of the Christian Church, where we all die, and our Spirit men go to heaven, will be to deceive the Muslim Nations VIA Peace like Dan. 8:25 says, then he will Conquer them and slay the ones who refuse to worship him as God. This is THE HARLOT {All False Religion of All Time equals the Harlot} that gets Destroyed by the 10 Kings in Rev. 17:16, NOTICE, in verse 17 it says they did the will of God. This is God's Judgment of the Great Harlot, she has to DIE OFF in order for there to be a ONE WORLD Religion that all men are ordered to worship, there can't be any Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Witchcraft, he even chases the Jews who become Messianic Jews into the Wilderness trying to kill them, and he slays the Remnant Church {Gentiles who come to Christ AFTER the Rapture, many were the 5 foolish virgins who tarried}. So the Genius move is to break their backs before they understand what is going on and to come in hard and heave in them because they will fight to the death.



This is very true sister in all cases EXCEPT the last Beast. God expressly wants us to know the Last Beast is not a Kingdom, but ONE MAN who arises and then falls. That is why the Beast is described as a MAN in Daniel 7:11 and Rev. 19:20. The most important clue comes to us from Rev. 17. God REDUCES the Kingdoms from Seven Kingdoms to 7 Kings who Arise and then FALL. He says 5 Have already fallen, ONE IS........and one is YET TO COME. So why does God SWITCH it from Kingdoms to Kings who FALL? Because He wants us to know that the LAST BEAST is not a Kingdom per se, but ONE MAN, who is the only Beast who both ARISES {Mountain} and FALLS, none of the other Beasts did this, they were all indeed Kings who AROSE like/as Mountains above the plains, but they then passed their Kingdoms on to others and thus all the other Beasts were indeed Kingdoms, THIS MAN, will not pass his Kingdom on, He Conquers Israel and the MANY [Nations] in the Mediterranean Sea Region, then he rules for only 42 Monts but never passes his Kingdom on to another, so he both ARISES and FALLS unlike any of the Other Beasts thus this LAST BEAST is a Man, the Beast is thus described unto us in Rev. 13 as a MAN...........Thus it is the Number of a man, and that number is 666 (I don't think the man has a name that matches the Number, I think the 666 Represents him being a MAN as in 666 = MANKIND and 777 = God.)

While I agree, all the others were Empires, God calls this MAN the Beast in Rev. 19:20 and Daniel 7:11. And in Rev. 13 he gets the moniker of 666. Finally, in Rev. 17 God reduces the 7 Kingdoms to 7 Kings for a reason, to let us know the Last Beast is a MAN.



None of those Nations are of God sister, don't kid yourself. The USA is under Satan's control. Look at Luke 4, Satan showed Jesus all of the Kingdoms of the whole world and stated they were his to do with as he pleased. The E,U. are far more ungodly than the USA, think East Coast and West Coast, that is how Europe is in actuality. Israel was also a Jewish nation, but they killed Jesus and couldn't see he was God come in the flesh. As per the number of Nations, 10 is used as a COMPLETE NUMBER {fill in the blank} of things being spoken of via God's Prophecies. So 10 can mean and often does mean ALL THAT'S BEING SPOKEN OF.......So the 27 or 26 nations can be represented by the number 10. This is well known in Prophecy's sister.


Well, I could, but I already know what that means. The Seven Heads are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, then Rome received the MORTAL WOUND, and God thus locked up Apollyon for the duration of the Church Age, in the Bottomless Pit. Once Israel became a Nation again the countdown began, the Beast can now LIVE AGAIN, but only after the Church has been Raptured, because that starts the 70th week, and during that 70gth week Israel must REPENT, then Gid will protect the 1/3 of the Jews who repent AND Flee Judea unto Petra. The 2/3 who do not repent will perish. Once the 10 Kings give their power unto the Anti-Christ he Conquers Jerusalem and THE MANY to become the Mediterranean Sea Beast once again.

Rev. 12 is the Dragon...........Rev. 13 is The Anti-Christ.........Rev. 17 is about Apollyon, the Scarlet Colored Beast. The CROWNS tells the story in each case. In Rev. 12 the SEVEN CROWNS are on the Seven Heads. In Rev, 13 the 10 Horns have the CROWNS on them, they are ruled by the Anti-Christ Beast. In Rev. 17 there are NO CROWNS at all because his Kingdom is not of this world, but he's the King of the Bottomless Pit. This he {Apollyon} was OF THE SEVEN.........but is an 8th.


And this Gentile King born in Greece and running the E.U. being over the Mediterranean Sea Region is NO DIFFERENT from Babylon, Persia, Greece or Rome being a BEAST over the Region before the Anti-Christ is a Beast over the Region. This MANS Land Mass will be the exact same Land Mass as the Roman Empires Land Mass, thus he arises out of the Fourth Kingdoms HEAD....He looks like Papa !!



The Harlot RIDES the Beast, not the other way around. She is ALL FASE RELIGIONS of All Time, she is REPLACED by the False Prophet who BEASTS over Religions whilst THE BEAST {Anti-Christ} rules over the World Governments !! The Harlot FALSE RELIGIONS have been co-mingled with the Government Beasts for time immemorial, False Religion RIDES the Gov. Beasts back !! Co-mingled until there comes a time when the LAST BEAST doesn't want many religions, he wants to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! Thus he must DESTROY the Harlot False Religions, thus Islam has to go, as does Hinduism and Buddhism. The Harlot is thus KILLED OFF, Islam is WIPED OUT and thus Judged by God, see Rev. 17:1, God JUDGES the Harlot !! If people had obeyed God, they wouldn't have killed his Prophets and Saints !! But instead, they worshiped false gods!



Islam will be WIPED OUT Sister. You have the Islamic angle all wrong, just like the other side has the RCC angle all wrong Satan is very good at head fakes. There has been NO BEAST fir 2000 some odd years, God saw Israel as DEAD MEN'S BONES, thus they were dead unto Gd, thus they could not be BEASTED over by anyone until 1948, and as you can see, no one has been able to Conquer them yet because God has fought for them. They will not get Conquered until AFTER the Rapture of the Church. Then the BEAST Arises again, his Wound is healed !! I have been doing this 35 years sister, it's my calling.

God Bless, chat with you later, maybe tomorrow, God willing.
You can study prophecy for 1000 years but if you refuse to acknowledge that the whole Bible is Middle East-centric, you will miss things.
Biblical prophecy is not about The USA or Europe. It is primarily about Jerusalem, Israel & the nations directly surrounding them.
It tells the same story again and again.
If you can't acknowledge that fact. There is no need for us to talk any further. We will always disagree.

Jesus the warrior king wipes out Islam. The whole bible is about that very thing.

There are two beasts in Revelation.
Chapter 13
1. The beast out of the sea. Empire.
2. The beast out of the earth. Man

Babylon The Great, The prostitute rides the sea-beast.
The sea-beast is the people. The waters where the prostitute sits.
The prophecy is interpreted for us in Revelation 17. The religion rides the empire

Mystery Babylon who she is and where she is explained in explicit detail in Isaiah.

So much detail is provided there can be no doubt Mystery Babylon as defined BY THE BIBLE has nothing to do with Europe or America.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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#97
...
Type and antitype must match.

Natural Israel (after the flesh), in Natural Jerusalem, with the Natural "daily" is "taken away" completely by Natural Babylon.

Spiritual Israel (after the Spirit), in spiritual Jerusalem (above, names written in Heaven, and there by faith), with the spiritual "daily" is completely "taken away" by spiritual Babylon, it is replaced with the "in the place of" (anti) system.
That the 2,300 of Daniel 8:14 in context of Daniel 8:13's, "How long the vision ..." is many many years, is shown in several ways.

Daniel 9, ties directly to Daniel 8.

Notice the language:

Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.​
Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.​

Thus, though Daniel had understood:
[1] the ram was Medo-Persia​
[2] the He-goat was Greecia​
[3] the four horns was the division of Greecia (just as in Daniel 7, four heads of the leopard, and in Daniel 2 in the division there of waist and thighs), and later in Daniel 11:3-19.​
[4] of the little horn, as tied to Daniel 2, 7, 11, etc.​
What Daniel did not get the complete explanation of, was the 2,300 and its significance.

Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.​
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.​
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.​
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.​
Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.​

Thus, 13 or so years later, in Daniel 9, Gabriel is sent back in answer to Daniel's prayer, and from his studying the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah (2 Chronicles 36:21; Zechariah 1:12, 7:5; Jeremiah 25:11-12, 29:10; Daniel 9:2). Notice the connection of language:

Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Type to be followed by Antitype:

Dan 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.​

More on understanding:

Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.​
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.​
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.​

Daniel was to be given further "understanding" regarding "the vision" of Daniel 8, even while he was seeking understanding of it through Jeremiah's prophecy.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.​
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.​
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.​
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​
 

WithinReason

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That the 2,300 of Daniel 8:14 in context of Daniel 8:13's, "How long the vision ..." is many many years, is shown in several ways.

Daniel 9, ties directly to Daniel 8.

...

Daniel was to be given further "understanding" regarding "the vision" of Daniel 8, even while he was seeking understanding of it through Jeremiah's prophecy.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.​
...
The word "determined" ( https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2852 ) (Strong's #02852 - חָתַךְ - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon) (נחתך Pesachim 74a *) in Daniel 9:24 (see also Acts 17:26) is key to understanding the 2,300 for what is the 70 weeks "determined" (cut off, section, apportioned) from? The only context is the 2,300 of Daniel 8.

*
חָתַךְ (b. h.) 1) to cut, dissect; to sever. Ḥull. 33ᵃ חוֹתֵךְ כזית וכ׳ cuts out flesh of the size of an olive. Ib. 32ᵃ ח׳ דלעת וכ׳ if in slaughtering he cut a pumpkin at the same time. Ib. 48ᵇ a. e. חוֹתְכָהּ מכאן וכ׳ he amputates on one place and the animal survives &c. Bets. 32ᵇ חוֹתְכָהּ באיר he may sever the wick over the light. Y. Meg. IV, 75ᵃ חותך the reader cuts one verse into two (reading Gen. I, 5, a. I, 8 as two verses severally); a. fr.—[Lev. R. s. 10 לחתוך את אביו וכ׳, v. חָתַר.]—Part. pass. חָתוּךְ cut into, having the incisions of limbs &c., outlined. Nidd. 24ᵇ גוף שאינו ח׳ a shapeless body (not articulated); ראש שאינו ח׳ a shapeless head (without indications of the nose &c.) Ib. 24ᵃ יד חֲתוּכָה a well-shaped hand (of an embryo); a. fr. —2) (cmp. פָּסַק, גָּזַר) to decide, sentence. Lev. R. s. 4, beg. (ref. to התוך, Jer. XXXIX, 3) ששם חוֹתְכִין את ההלכה for there they decide the practice. Ib. וחוֹתֶכֶת דיניהם וכ׳ and decides the cases &c. Shebu. 30ᵇ bot. אֶחְתְּכֶנּוּ I will decide the case (in accordance with the testimony).—Part. pass. as ab. Y. Snh. IV, beg. 22ᵃ אילו … התורה חתוכה if the Law had been given in the form of clear decisions (leaving no room for differences of opinion, discretion &c.)​
Nif. - נֶחְתַּךְ 1) to be cut off, severed; to be cut into. Ḥull. IV, 6 שנֶחְתְּכוּ רגליה whose feet have been amputated. Ib. 32ᵃ נֶחְתְּכָה דלעת וכ׳ if by accident a pumpkin has been cut simultaneously with the animal (opp. to חָתַךְ, v. supra); a. fr. —2) to be decided, decreed. Meg. 15ᵃ (play on ה̇ת̇ך̇, Esth. IV, 5) שכל … נֶחְ֗תָּ֗כִ֗ין על יפיו all the government affairs were decided upon his opinion.​
Pi. - חִיתֵּךְ 1) to cut. Ḥull. IV, 2 מְחַתֵּךְ אבר אבר he may cut off limb after limb. Ib. 98ᵇ מחתך לה וכ׳ he carves the foreleg and then boils it.—Part. pass. מְחוּתָּךְ piecemeal, limbwise. Y. Nidd. III, 50ᶜ יצא מח׳ if the embryo came out by pieces.​
—2) to decide. Snh. 7ᵇ צדק … חַתְּכֵהוּ make the case clear and then decide it. Ber. 61ᵃ לשון מְחַתֵּךְ וכ׳ the tongue forms the sentence, the mouth closes (the case, makes it irreversible). —3) to dig ore (in lumps). Keth. 77ᵃ (expl. מצרף) המְחַתֵּךְ … מעיקרו he who digs copper in the shaft. [Tosef. Ohol. IV, 3 וחיתכו, וחתכו, read: והִתִּיכוֹ or והִיתְּכוֹ, v. נָתַךְ a. התך.]​
חֲתַךְ ch. same. Pa. חַתֵּיךְ to cut off. Ḥull. 11ᵃ ח׳ ליה לגמרי he severed it entirely, v. לוּף.—Part. pass. מְחַתַּךְ in pieces. Targ. Y. Lev. VII, 30 (ed. Amst. מַחְתַּךְ, incorr.). Targ. Y. I Num. XII, 12 כד מח׳ (not מְחַתֵּיךְ).​
Ithpa. - אִתְחַתַּךְ to be cut, to be decided. Targ. Esth. IV, 5 (v. Meg. 15ᵃ, quot. in preced.).​

The 70 years of Jeremiah and the Babylonish captivity, was but a reflection of the greater 70 weeks (subsection of the 2,300), which was to be 70 years times 7, or 490 years. This is made mention by Jesus to Peter in Matthew 18:

Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.​

The Jews and Jerusalem was given seventy times seven years to make things right.
 

WithinReason

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Feb 21, 2020
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#99
The word "determined" ( https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h2852 ) (Strong's #02852 - חָתַךְ - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon) (נחתך Pesachim 74a *) in Daniel 9:24 (see also Acts 17:26) is key to understanding the 2,300 for what is the 70 weeks "determined" (cut off, section, apportioned) from? The only context is the 2,300 of Daniel 8.
...

The 70 years of Jeremiah and the Babylonish captivity, was but a reflection of the greater 70 weeks (subsection of the 2,300), which was to be 70 years times 7, or 490 years. This is made mention by Jesus to Peter in Matthew 18:

Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.​

The Jews and Jerusalem was given seventy times seven years to make things right.
Brown's Drivers and Briggs Lexicon,

"... Properly passive participle of H7650 as a denominative of H7651; [exactly as TWOT says] literally sevened, that is, a week (specifically of years):—seven, week. ..." - Strong's Number 7620 Hebrew Dictionary of the Old Testament Online Bible with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon, Etymology, Translations Definitions Meanings & Key Word Studies - Lexiconcordance.com

Albert Barnes, noted commentator, more than Keil or Kliefoth, states:

"... “The form which is used here,” says he, “which is a regular masculine plural, is no doubt purposely chosen to designate the plural of seven; and with great propriety here, inasmuch as there are many sevens which are to be joined together in one common sum. Daniel had been meditating on the close of the seventy “years” of Hebrew exile, and the angel now discloses to him a new period of “seventy times seven,” in which still more important events are to take place. Seventy sevens, or (to use the Greek phraseology), “seventy heptades,” are determined upon thy people.​
Heptades of what? Of days, or of years? No one can doubt what the answer is. Daniel had been making diligent search respecting the seventy “years;” and, in such a connection, nothing but seventy heptades of years could be reasonably supposed to be meant by the angel.” The inquiry about the “gender” of the word, of which so much has been said (Hengstenberg, “Chris.” ii. 297), does not seem to be very important, since the same result is reached whether it be rendered “seventy sevens,” or “seventy weeks.” In the former case, as proposed by Prof. Stuart, it means seventy sevens of “years,” or 490 years; in the other, seventy “weeks” of years; that is, as a “week of years” is seven years, seventy such weeks, or as before, 490 years. The usual and proper meaning of the word used here, however - שׁבוּע shâbûa‛a is a “seven,” ἐβδομάς hebdomas, i. e., a week. - Gesenius, “Lexicon” From the “examples” where the word occurs it would seem that the masculine or the feminine forms were used indiscriminately. ..."​

Joseph Benson, another noted commentator still used to this day:
"... Seventy weeks, &c. — Weeks not of days, but of years, or, seventy times seven years, that is, four hundred and ninety years, each day being accounted a year according to the prophetic way of reckoning, (see note on Dan_7:25,) a way often used in Scripture, especially in reckoning the years of jubilee, which correspond with these numbers in Daniel: see Lev_25:8. See also Gen_29:27, where, to fulfil her week, is explained by performing another seven years’ service for Rachel; and Num_14:34, where we read, that according to the number of the days which the spies employed in searching out the land of Canaan, even forty days, the Israelites were condemned to bear their iniquities, even forty years. Thus God says likewise to Ezekiel, contemporary with Daniel, I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days three hundred and ninety days. I have appointed thee EACH DAY FOR A YEAR. ..."​

Genevan Bible translators:

"... (p) He alludes to Jeremiah's prophecy, who prophesied that their captivity would be seventy years: but now God's mercy would exceed his judgment seven times as much, which would be 490 years, even until the coming of Christ, and so then it would continue forever. ..."​

Adam Clarke:
"... Seventy weeks are determined - The Jews had Sabbatic years, Lev_25:8, by which their years were divided into weeks of years, as in this important prophecy, each week containing seven years. The seventy weeks therefore here spoken of amount to four hundred and ninety years. ..."​

John Gill:

"... and this space of "seventy" weeks is not to be understood of weeks of days; which is too short a time for the fulfilment of so many events as are mentioned; nor were they fulfilled within such a space of time; but of weeks of years, and make up four hundred and ninety years; within which time, beginning from a date after mentioned, all the things prophesied of were accomplished; and this way of reckoning of years by days is not unusual in the sacred writings; see Gen_29:27. The verb used is singular, and, joined with the noun plural, shows that every week was cut out and appointed for some event or another; and the word, as it signifies "to cut", aptly expresses the division, or section of these weeks into distinct periods, as seven, sixty two, and one. ..."​

John Wesley:

"... Seventy weeks - These weeks are weeks of days, and these days are so many years. ..."​

and many, many others, as I can still cite.
 

WithinReason

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Brown's Drivers and Briggs Lexicon,

"... Properly passive participle of H7650 as a denominative of H7651; [exactly as TWOT says] literally sevened, that is, a week (specifically of years):—seven, week. ..." - Strong's Number 7620 Hebrew Dictionary of the Old Testament Online Bible with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon, Etymology, Translations Definitions Meanings & Key Word Studies - Lexiconcordance.com
...

and many, many others, as I can still cite.
Even historically, we can go to the so called 'ECF' and see a general agreement of 'years':

200AD Hippolytus of Rome (70 weeks):

"16. That transgressions, therefore, are blotted out, and that reconciliation is made for sins, is shown by this. But who are they who have reconciliation made for their sins, but they who believe on His name, and propitiate His countenance by good works? And that after the return of the people from Babylon there was a space of 434 years, until the time of the birth of Christ, may be easily understood." - Philip Schaff: ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

225AD Origen:

"The weeks of years, also, which the prophet Daniel had predicted, extending to the leadership of Christ, have been fulfilled" (Principles, 4:1:5). (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel) - Origen ON THE PRINCIPLES (PERI ARCHON - DE PRINCIPIIS) - III : Full text, in English - 1

403AD Sulpcius Severus (On Daniel's Seventy Weeks):

"But from the restoration of the temple to its destruction, which was completed by Titus under Vespasian, when Augustus was consul, there was a period of four hundred and eighty-three years. That was formerly predicted by Daniel, who announced that from the restoration of the temple to its overthrow there would elapse seventy and nine weeks. Now, from the date of the captivity of the Jews until the time of the restoration of the city, there were two hundred and sixty years." (p. 254, ch. 11, Sacred History) - Philip Schaff: NPNF-211. Sulpitius Severus, Vincent of Lerins, John Cassian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

420 AD Cyril of Alexandria:

"Now three score and nine weeks of years contain four hundred and eighty-three years. He said, therefore, that after the building of Jerusalem, four hundred and eighty-three years having passed, and the rulers having failed, then cometh a certain king of another race, in whose time the Christ is to be born." (Cyril of Alexandria, 420 AD) - CHURCH FATHERS: Catechetical Lecture 12 (Cyril of Jerusalem)

Others - The Early Church Fathers and the Last Days of the Jewish Age