Daniel 8

eternally-gratefull · Feb 27, 2020

Its actually 5 Gentile Kingdoms or Kings who start Kingdoms which rule over the Mediterranean Sea Region AND Israel, even when Israel was in Egypt they were Beasted over by Egypt who was the first head of the 7 Headed Revelation Beast. The Little Horn arises out of the Fourth Beasts Head, which only means he has the exact same footprint as the Fourth Beast or he looks like his Papa, Rome. So the Little Hoen ARISES 2000 years after the Beast System has disappeared, there could be no Beast with no Israel, and God saw Israel as Dead Men's Bones, this is why England/Brits and the Ottoman Empire are not Beasts. In 1948, Israel once again became a united people, God REVIVED THEM, and placed them back in their land, now, and ONLY NOW, can there be a Beast again, once the Church is Raptured or as 2 Thess. 2 says once we DEPART before the DOTL. Then the European President will Conquer Israel AND the MANY as seen in Daniel 11:40-43. It means MANY Nations, not just Israel, you can't be a Beast without being over the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.

Until we get to verse 8, then just like Daniel 11:36 is SWITCHES to the end time Kings (Anti-Christ/Little Horn) as I showed you in the other post. There are identifiers that match ONLY the end-time Beast.

The Prince of princes he battles is Capitalized, so its about Jesus, and only Jesus fights his battles WITHOUT HANDS just as Dan. 2 we see that God destroys the Beast System and the Beast WITHOUT HANDS: SE Verses 34 and 45. And 2 Thess. 2:8 also shows this !!

Dan. 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

2 Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So Jesus DESTROYS the Beast by his mere COMING......WITHOUT HANDS !! That is what the Without Hands also means in Dan. 8 brother. Then in verse 25 he also destroys MANY BY PEACE, and we see the same reference to MANY in Daniel 9:27 and Dan. 11:40-43.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant WITH MANY for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north(1) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries (2), and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land (3), AND MANY countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon(4).

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps(5).

So, in Daniel 8:25 he DESTROYS MANY by Peace and in Rev. 6 at the 2nd Seal he takes away Peace from the earth !! In Dan. 9:27 we see he signs Peace Treaties with not only Israel but WITH MANY [Nations]. We can see this pattern picked up in Dan. chapter 11 where the writer SPECIFICALLY NAMES the Many hes been taling about.

We see the King of the South, which I assume will be a Conglomorete of Nations or maybe Turkey, he PUSHES at the E.U. President (1) {Anti-Christ} and then the A.C. comes at him hard, he then rolls into the Countries (2) as verse 40 also says, which I assume are Syria and Lebanon since he comes out of the Northwest as Dan 8:9 says. Then he Conquers Israel (3) AND MANY Countries are overthrown !!

We then see that the region of Petra/Bozrah ESCAPES out of his hand(4), meaning God does not allow him to Conquer this region, because this is where Israel flees unto and are protected by God during this 70th week period of tribulstion. We also know that Edom, Moab, and Ammon are in Central/Southern Jordan.

Finally we see that all of North Africa is Conquered by the Anti-Christ (5), the lands of Egypt, Libya and the Ethiopians will not escape from this mans vicious tyranical plans. Thus THE MANY are not just Israel, they are the Nations that make up the Mediterranean Sea Region as a wholre.

P.S., the E.U. already has 7 year Agreements {Covenant means Agreement in Hebrew} with all of these Nations who represent THE MANY, its called the European Nieghborhood Policy. {Google it, there is a Wiki page on it}. HERE....The countries covered include Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Palestine, Syria, Tunisia in the South.....The EU offers financial assistance to countries within the European Neighbourhood, so long as they meet the strict conditions of government reform, economic reform and other issues surrounding positive transformation. (Carrot and the Stick approach).......

Funding the policy: from ENPI to ENI
Giving incentives and rewarding best performers, as well as offering funds in a faster and more flexible manner, are the two main principles underlying the European Neighbourhood Instrument (ENI) that came into force in 2014. It has a budget of €15.4 billion and provides the bulk of funding through a number of programmes. The ENI, effective from 2014 to 2020(1), replaces the European Neighbourhood and Partnership Instrument – known as the ENPI. This cooperation instrument continues to be managed by DG Development and Cooperation - EuropeAid, which turns decisions taken on a political level into actions on the ground. ENPI funding approved for the period 2007-2013 was €11.2 billion(2).

Kazakhstan's Foreign Ministry has expressed interest in the ENP[4] and some MEPs have also discussed Kazakhstan's inclusion in the ENP.[5] The EU Neighbourhood Info Centre was launched in January 2009 by the European Commission to make more known the relationship between the EU and its Neighbours.

So the E.U. has "AGREEMENTS" or Entanglements with THE MANY as we speak, and they entice them with incentives {Money} and lay down strict rules, Israel plays football {Soccer} in the European Leagues as we speak. Their "AGREEMENTS/Treaties run in 7 year cycles as we see above (1 and 2). The Anti-Christ has a READY MADE INSTRUMENT to impose his credos onto these Nations as soon as he comes to power. And he will have many entangled via the monetary policies, they are used to the SUGAR TREAT, and he also promises a possible entrance into the E.U. down the road. This his how the Beast/A.C. Destroys MANY by PEACE !!

Believe what you want. I have shown in detail everything that it said, whivh is supported in the history books.

If you want to continue to think otherwise, Thats fine. But I can not follow what is plainly not there

WithinReason · Feb 27, 2020

WithinReason said:

Let's consider a specific word in Daniel 8:14, and then look at the broader context:

Daniel 8:14 KJB - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The word “cleansed” [Daniel 8:14 KJB] is found tied to the following words, in relationship to the sanctuary and of judgment:

Consider that in Job 25:4 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “justified”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 4, as meaning, “be clean”, and even vs 5, refers to “pure”, referring to a case to be judged, as Job's.

Consider that in Job 15:14 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “righteous”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 14, as meaning, “be clean”, and even in vs 15, refers to “saints” [holy], and “clean” again.

Consider also that Psalms 51:4 KJB, utilizing the same word in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “justified”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 4, as meaning, “be clear when thou judgest” [ie. day of atonement, Leviticus 16 & 23:27-32 KJB, see also Revelation 9:13-15, 14:6-7 KJB], then read further in vs 7, of “clean” and “wash”.

Consider that in Job 22:3 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “righteous”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in vs 3, as meaning, “perfect”, and even in vs 4, refers to “judgment”

Consider that in Psalms 19:7-9 KJB, utilizing the same word found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, for “cleansed”, is given as “righteous”, but in parallel [Isaiah 28:10 KJB, the ways of the Lord being “equal” [Ezekiel 18:25,29 KJB]] in [vs7]: “perfect”, [vs 8]: “right”, “pure”, [vs 9]: “clean”, “judgments”, “righteous”.

Etc, etc. for every time the underlying word, as found in Daniel 8:14 KJB, is used in scripture, it almost inevitably is connected with the same words in context, if not in the very same text itself, see [H6663], “צדק”, “tsâdaq” in the King James Concordance.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 27, 2020

Rondonmon said:

he matches everything in Daniel 8
he matches one of the 4 kings. Who comes from the ram which is Greece. Not rome
He matches the one who rules over Jerusalem and
he matches the one who commits an abomination of desolation
once again it’s in the history books

Lucy-Pevensie · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

But he is still only a shadow of the greater fulfilment to come.

Lucy-Pevensie · Feb 27, 2020

Rondonmon said:

Its actually 5 Gentile Kingdoms or Kings who start Kingdoms which rule over the Mediterranean Sea Region AND Israel, even when Israel was in Egypt they were Beasted over by Egypt who was the first head of the 7 Headed Revelation Beast. The Little Horn arises out of the Fourth Beasts Head, which only means he has the exact same footprint as the Fourth Beast or he looks like his Papa, Rome. So the Little Hoen ARISES 2000 years after the Beast System has disappeared, there could be no Beast with no Israel, and God saw Israel as Dead Men's Bones, this is why England/Brits and the Ottoman Empire are not Beasts. In 1948, Israel once again became a united people, God REVIVED THEM, and placed them back in their land, now, and ONLY NOW, can there be a Beast again, once the Church is Raptured or as 2 Thess. 2 says once we DEPART before the DOTL. Then the European President will Conquer Israel AND the MANY as seen in Daniel 11:40-43. It means MANY Nations, not just Israel, you can't be a Beast without being over the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.

Until we get to verse 8, then just like Daniel 11:36 is SWITCHES to the end time Kings (Anti-Christ/Little Horn) as I showed you in the other post. There are identifiers that match ONLY the end-time Beast.

The Prince of princes he battles is Capitalized, so its about Jesus, and only Jesus fights his battles WITHOUT HANDS just as Dan. 2 we see that God destroys the Beast System and the Beast WITHOUT HANDS: SE Verses 34 and 45. And 2 Thess. 2:8 also shows this !!

Dan. 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

2 Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So Jesus DESTROYS the Beast by his mere COMING......WITHOUT HANDS !! That is what the Without Hands also means in Dan. 8 brother. Then in verse 25 he also destroys MANY BY PEACE, and we see the same reference to MANY in Daniel 9:27 and Dan. 11:40-43.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant WITH MANY for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north(1) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries (2), and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land (3), AND MANY countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon(4).

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps(5).

So, in Daniel 8:25 he DESTROYS MANY by Peace and in Rev. 6 at the 2nd Seal he takes away Peace from the earth !! In Dan. 9:27 we see he signs Peace Treaties with not only Israel but WITH MANY [Nations]. We can see this pattern picked up in Dan. chapter 11 where the writer SPECIFICALLY NAMES the Many hes been taling about.

We see the King of the South, which I assume will be a Conglomorete of Nations or maybe Turkey, he PUSHES at the E.U. President (1) {Anti-Christ} and then the A.C. comes at him hard, he then rolls into the Countries (2) as verse 40 also says, which I assume are Syria and Lebanon since he comes out of the Northwest as Dan 8:9 says. Then he Conquers Israel (3) AND MANY Countries are overthrown !!

We then see that the region of Petra/Bozrah ESCAPES out of his hand(4), meaning God does not allow him to Conquer this region, because this is where Israel flees unto and are protected by God during this 70th week period of tribulstion. We also know that Edom, Moab, and Ammon are in Central/Southern Jordan.

Finally we see that all of North Africa is Conquered by the Anti-Christ (5), the lands of Egypt, Libya and the Ethiopians will not escape from this mans vicious tyranical plans. Thus THE MANY are not just Israel, they are the Nations that make up the Mediterranean Sea Region as a wholre.

P.S., the E.U. already has 7 year Agreements {Covenant means Agreement in Hebrew} with all of these Nations who represent THE MANY, its called the European Nieghborhood Policy. {Google it, there is a Wiki page on it}. HERE....The countries covered include Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Palestine, Syria, Tunisia in the South.....The EU offers financial assistance to countries within the European Neighbourhood, so long as they meet the strict conditions of government reform, economic reform and other issues surrounding positive transformation. (Carrot and the Stick approach).......

Funding the policy: from ENPI to ENI
Giving incentives and rewarding best performers, as well as offering funds in a faster and more flexible manner, are the two main principles underlying the European Neighbourhood Instrument (ENI) that came into force in 2014. It has a budget of €15.4 billion and provides the bulk of funding through a number of programmes. The ENI, effective from 2014 to 2020(1), replaces the European Neighbourhood and Partnership Instrument – known as the ENPI. This cooperation instrument continues to be managed by DG Development and Cooperation - EuropeAid, which turns decisions taken on a political level into actions on the ground. ENPI funding approved for the period 2007-2013 was €11.2 billion(2).

Kazakhstan's Foreign Ministry has expressed interest in the ENP[4] and some MEPs have also discussed Kazakhstan's inclusion in the ENP.[5] The EU Neighbourhood Info Centre was launched in January 2009 by the European Commission to make more known the relationship between the EU and its Neighbours.

So the E.U. has "AGREEMENTS" or Entanglements with THE MANY as we speak, and they entice them with incentives {Money} and lay down strict rules, Israel plays football {Soccer} in the European Leagues as we speak. Their "AGREEMENTS/Treaties run in 7 year cycles as we see above (1 and 2). The Anti-Christ has a READY MADE INSTRUMENT to impose his credos onto these Nations as soon as he comes to power. And he will have many entangled via the monetary policies, they are used to the SUGAR TREAT, and he also promises a possible entrance into the E.U. down the road. This his how the Beast/A.C. Destroys MANY by PEACE !!

The EU is not the beast system.

WithinReason · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

Let's see if this holds true, according to scripture, and historical sources, and then judge accordingly, and let us not deny the evidence before us.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes, is ultimately Jesuit 'formulated' Preterism (though existed in various unfinished forms until they polished it). - http://www.biblelight.net/antichrist.htm

Looking at Antiochus IV Epiphanes [Epimanes, the mad one], and the failure of this person to fulfil the prophecies of Daniel 8's 'little horn':

"... He was not deficient in capacity or vigour of mind to make a figure in war; but [31] such perversity and indiscretion prevailed in his whole conduct and behaviour, that they soon changed the surname which they had given him, and instead of Epiphanes, called him Epimanes, or madman; for many were the acts of folly ar madness which he committed. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

"... Wherefore to many he appeared not to know what he was doing; some said that he acted from a silly sportive temper; others, that he was evidently mad. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XX [20] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

There are some who attempt, from the apocryphal books of Maccabees, to demonstrate that Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfills the prophecies of Daniel 8's 'little horn', but now let us examine that source and see for ourselves that the claim cannot be defended.

For instance in, we see that Epiphanes had 'ben a pledge at Rome' [1 Maccabees 1:11, Bishop's Bible 1568] [ie Hostage in youth at Rome, against his Father Antiochus III].

"... About this time, Antiochus, son to Antiochus the Great, who had been for a long time a hostage at Rome, came into possession of the kingdom of Syria, on the death of his brother Seleucus. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

It only gets worse from here on out... as even according to history he [Antiochus IV] did not wax “exceeding great” by any standards, in Egypt [South], Jerusalem [Pleasant Land] or East [Medo-Persia], as his Father Antiochus III had, etc.

A lone Roman ambassador [Gaius Popillius Laenas from the Roman Senate] and some guards put him to flight in Egypt [ca. 168 BC], rescuing Egypt completely out of his hands:

"... XI. In the mean time, Antiochus, after a fruitless attempt against the walls of Alexandria, had retired; and being now master of all the rest of Egypt, he left, at Memphis, the elder Ptolemy, whose settlement on the throne was the pretended object of his armament, though, in reality, he meant to attack him, as soon as he should have vanquished his competitors; and, then, he led back his army into Syria. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XI [11] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

"... XII. When the time fixed for the suspension of hostilities, was elapsed, Antiochus ordered the commanders of his fleet to sail up the mouth of the Nile to Pelusium, while he himself entered Egypt, through the deserts of Arabia. He was amicably received by the people about Memphis, as he was, afterwards, by the rest of the Egyptians; some being led by inclination, others by fear; and he proceeded thus, by short marches, down to Alexandria. He had just crossed the river at Eleusine, four miles from that city, when he was met by [249] the Roman ambassadors. At their coming, he saluted them, and held out his right hand to Popillius; but Popillius putting into his hand a written tablet, desired him first to peruse that. On reading it, he said, that he would call his friends together, and consult what was to be done; on which Popillius, with that roughness which generally marked his character, drew a line round the King, with a wand which he held in his hand, and said, “Before you go out of that circle, give such an answer as I may report to the senate.” Astonished at such a peremptory injunction, the King hesitated for some time; but, at last, replied, “I will do as the senate directs.” Popillius then thought proper to stretch out his right hand to him; as to a friend and ally. Antiochus having retired out of Egypt, on a day prefixed, the ambassadors employed their influence in establishing concord among the royal family, on a more firm basis than it had yet acquired; and then sailed to Cyprus, from whence they sent home the ships of Antiochus, and which had fought and defeated an Egyptian fleet. This embassy attracted a great share of respect from all nations; having manifestly rescued Egypt out of the hands of the Syrian, when he had it within his grasp, and restored to the race of Ptolemy, the kingdom of their forefathers. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XII [12] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

Even the Jews [Judas Maccabees, etal. according to the apocryphal books of [1-4] Maccabees] threw him [his armies] out of Jerusalem, in the Maccabean revolt. And nowhere could it be said that he waxed exceeding great in the east [Media-Persian, area], dying there in great heaviness [sorrow/sadness] and dishonour [1 Maccabees 6:3-6, Bishop's Bible 1568]:

1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,

1 Maccabees 6:6 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And how that Lysias went foorth first with a great power, and was dryuen away of the Iewes, how that they had wonne the victory, and gotten great goodes out of the hoastes that perished,

Further more:

1 Maccabees 6:8 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So it chaunced, that when the king heard these wordes, he was afrayde, & greeued very sore: Wherefore he layde him downe vpon his bed, and fell sicke for very sorowe, and all because it had not happened as he had deuised.

1 Maccabees 6:9 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And there continued he long: for his griefe was euer more and more, so that he sawe he must needes dye.

1 Maccabees 6:10 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore he sent for all his friendes, & saide vnto them: The sleepe is gone fro myne eyes for the very sorowe and vexation of heart that I haue.

2 Maccabees 9:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - At the same time came Antiochus againe with dishonour out of Persia.

2 Maccabees 9:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For when he came to Persepolis, and vndertoke to robbe the temple, and to subdue the citie, the people ranne together and defended them selues, insomuch that he and his were faine to flee with shame: and so after that flight it happened that Antiochus came againe with dishonour.

and, by his own words, as given in 1 Maccabees, he dies, a miserable failure, in a “straunge lande” of the “east”, or just outside of Persia [and apparently, whose body, did Phillip bring down into Egypt, 2 Maccabees 9:29 Bishop's Bible 1568]:

1 Maccabees 6:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - I know that these troubles are come vpon me for the same cause: and behold, I must dye with great sorowe in a straunge lande.

1 Maccabees 6:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So the king Antiochus died there, in the hundred fourtie and nine yere.

2 Maccabees 9:28 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Thus that murtherer and blasphemer of God was sore smitten: and like as he had intreated other men, so he died a miserable death in a straunge countrey vpon a mountayne.

WithinReason · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

Let's see if this holds true, according to scripture, and historical sources, and then judge accordingly, and let us not deny the evidence before us.

Apparently, in 2 Maccabees, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, has a repentant heart, desires to repair all of the wrongs, rebuild the temple and become a Jew himself, and preach to the world, and sends a 'letter' as such [though dies miserably still], which is also not in harmony with the scriptural account of the “little horn”, which never repents:

2 Maccabees 9:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - This wicked person prayed also vnto the Lorde, who nowe woulde haue no mercie vpon him:

2 Maccabees 9:14 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as for the citie that he came vnto so hastyly, to bring it downe to the ground, and to make it a graue for dead men, now he desireth to deliuer it free:

2 Maccabees 9:15 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as touching the Iewes, whom he had iudged not worthy to be buried, but woulde haue cast them out with their children, for to be deuoured of the foules and wilde beastes, [saying that he woulde haue destroyed both olde and young:] now he promysed to make them like the citezins of Athens:

2 Maccabees 9:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And where as he had spoyled the holy temple afore, nowe he maketh promyse to garnishe it with great giftes, to encrease the holy ornamentes, and of his owne rentes to beare the costes & charges belonging to the offringes:

2 Maccabees 9:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Yea and that he would also become a Iewe hym selfe, to go through euery place of the worlde that was inhabyted, and to preache the power of God.

2 Maccabees 9:18 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But when his paynes would not ceasse, (for the ryghteous iudgement of God was come vpon hym) out of a very dispayre he wrote vnto the Iewes a letter of intercession, conteyning these words:

2 Maccabees 9:19 Bishop's Bible 1568 - The king and prince Antiochus, wisheth vnto the vertuous citezins of the Iewes much health and good prosperitie.

2 Maccabees 9:20 Bishop's Bible 1568 - If ye and your children fare well, and if all thinges go after your minde, we geue great thankes.

2 Maccabees 9:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - In my sicknesse also do I remember you louyngly: for as I came out of Persia, & was taken with sore disease, I thought it necessary to care for the common wealth:

2 Maccabees 9:22 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Neither dispaire I in my selfe, but haue a good hope to escape this sickenesse.

2 Maccabees 9:23 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But considering that my father led an hoast somtime in the higher places, and shewed who should raigne after him,

2 Maccabees 9:24 Bishop's Bible 1568 - That if there happened any controuersie, or any hard thing were declared, they in the lande might knowe their chiefe Lorde, that there should be no insurrection.

2 Maccabees 9:25 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Againe, when I ponder with my selfe, how that al the mightie men and neighbours rounde about are laying wayte, & loke but for oportunitie to do harme: I haue ordeined that my sonne Antiochus shall raigne after me, whom I oft commended to many of you, when I was in the higher kingdomes, & haue written vnto him as it foloweth hereafter.

2 Maccabees 9:26 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore I pray you and require you to remember the benefites that I haue done vnto you generally and in especiall, and that euery man wil be faythfull to me and my sonne.

2 Maccabees 9:27 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For I hope that he shalbe of sober and louing behauour, and if he folowe my deuice, he shalbe indifferent vnto you.

Furthermore, many who [incorrectly] proclaim that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a fulfillment of Daniel 8:9's “little horn” seem, also, to not closely consider the context or the exact order of events described therein with actual historical accounts. For instance, we read [KJB; bold red brackets added]

Daniel 8:9 - And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward [1st] the south, and [2nd] toward the east, and [3rd] toward the pleasant [land].

The scripture [KJB] is perfectly given in “order” [1 Corinthians 15:23; Colossians 2:5 KJB], in its proper “courses” [Judges 5:20; 1 Kings 5:14; 2 Chronicles 31:2, 8:14 KJB]. There are numerous Biblical [KJB] examples that may be given upon request.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not wax “exceeding great”, by any known historically comparable standards, in any direction [in the south/Egypt, any territory he might have gained was immediately given up to Rome for fear of their entering into Battle against him, in Judaea, there were some temporary victories, but short-lived if at all, and ultimately humiliated by being utterly defeated by a band of rebellious Jews, and he ends up dying alone in great sadness in the east [at least in one book of Maccabees]], let alone do so in the proper course and order in which the “little horn” would do in [1] the south, [2] the east and [3] the pleasant land as the scripture [KJB] gives in Daniel 8:9. Instead, we read, even from the apocryphal [non-scriptural] source [Maccabees, as elsewhere], that he [Antiochus IV Epiphanes] attempted to gain territory in the [1] south, [2] pleasant land, [3] east, not being the order given in scripture [KJB]. For instance:

[1] south [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

1 Maccabees 1:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So when Antiochus began to be mightie in his kingdome, he went about to obtayne the lande of Egypt also, that he might haue the dominion of two realmes.

[2] pleasant land [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

1 Maccabees 1:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he turned againe in the hundred fourtie and three yere, and went toward Israel,

[3] east [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

1 Maccabees 3:31 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherfore he was heauy in his minde, and thought to go into Persides for to take tributes of the lande, and so to gather much money.

1 Maccabees 6:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Now when king Antiochus trauailed thorough ye hie countries, he heard that Elymas in Persia was a noble and plenteous citie in siluer and golde,

1 Maccabees 6:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And that there was in it a very rich temple, where as were clothes, coate armours, and shieldes of golde, which Alexander the sonne of Philip king of Macedonia that raigned first in Grecia had left behinde him.

1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,

Thus, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, fails in fulfilling the prophecy [Daniel 8:9 KJB] in its specific and plainly given order [one may also consider 2 Maccabees 5:2,5,11, 9:1-28], as well as any claim to “exceeding great”, in any direction, or by any standards.

WithinReason · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

Let's see if this holds true, according to scripture, and historical sources, and then judge accordingly, and let us not deny the evidence before us.

Looking further, in Daniel 8:23 KJB, we read of further identification, which cannot possibly be fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes IV:

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

For [1], Antiochus IV Epiphanes, was not in the “latter time”, but in the very early midst of it, being about the 7th King [175-164 BC], among many more [unto Antiochus XIII Asiaticus, 69-64 BC, some 100 years later], see “The House of Seleucus” image:

And [2], the “transgressors” [of the covenant and Law of God] are the Jews, in the days of Jesus, in the time of the Romans, for He said [KJB]:

Matthew 23:32 KJB - Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Their [nation of Israel] cup of iniquity was not yet full during the era of Greece, but it was soon to be in the era of Rome [and their Temple and city to be destroyed], for their 490 years [Daniel 9, 70 weeks] was almost up [and that generation [AD 31], within 40 years later, would see it, AD 70], some sooner than others [like the Highpriests, etc]. Paul speaks about this further:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 KJB - Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

And [3], the “king of fierce countenance” is a fulfillment of the “Iron” [Daniel 2:33,40, 7:7,19,23 KJB], Roman Empire [whose standard was the 'eagle', and came from afar, from the west, and besieged them in all their lands], as it is given in scripture [KJB] itself:

Deuteronomy 28:48 KJB - Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

Deuteronomy 28:49 KJB - The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

Deuteronomy 28:50 KJB - A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

Deuteronomy 28:51 KJB - And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

Deuteronomy 28:52 KJB - And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Deuteronomy 28:53 KJB - And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

Also [4], the “understanding dark sentences” deals with the second major phase of the Roman element [as per Daniel 8:10 KJB], that of Papal Rome, for it means, according to scripture [KJB], to speak and understand parables, proverbs, ie religious/spiritual matters:

Psalms 49:4 KJB - I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

Psalms 78:2 KJB - I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Proverbs 1:6 KJB - To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

Ezekiel 17:2 KJB - Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

Matthew 13:34 KJB - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:13 KJB - And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

See also “mystery” and “mysteries” in Matthew 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10; Romans 11:25, 16:25; 1 Corinthians 2:7, 4:1, 13:2, 14:2, 15:51; Ephesians 1:9, 3:3,4,9, 5:32, 6:19; Colossians 1:26,27, 2:2, 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Timothy 3:9,16; Revelation 1:20, 10:7, 17:5,7.

See also “riddle” in Numbers 12:8; Judges 14:12-19.

See also “hard questions” in 1 Kings 10:1; 2 Chronicles 9:1.

See also “...take up a parable … a taunting proverb...” Habakkuk 2:6;p.

To speak in proverbs is to speak in symbols,

John 16:29 KJB - His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

Thus, as it is written,

Proverbs 25:2 KJB - [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

We are those “kings”.

WithinReason · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

Let's see if this holds true, according to scripture, and historical sources, and then judge accordingly, and let us not deny the evidence before us.

Just looking at the discrepancies of Maccabees, the apocryphal [non-Scriptural KJB] materials in regards Antiochus IV Epiphanes:

"... The Three Deaths of Antiochus Epiphanes in three locations in as many ways:

1) First death - Antiochus’ first death is found in 1 Maccabees 6:1-16. According to this report he is in Persia and dies while in his own bed due to grief over military losses.

a) Location: Persia - 6:5
b) Place: in bed - 6:8
c) Cause: dies from a broken spirit due to military
reversals - 6:8, 9
d) People involved: friends - 6:10, Philip - 6:14
e) Dies: 6:16
f) Text: 1 Mac. 6:14 - 16

14 Then called he for Philip, one of his friends, whom he made ruler over his realm.

15 And gave him the crown, and his robe, and his signet, to the end he should bring up his son Antiochus, and nourish him up for the kingdom.

16 So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.

2) His second death - The “second” death of Antiochus is found in 2 Maccabees 1:14-17. In this passage he is also in Persia, but is in the temple of a false goddess Nanea during his wedding ceremony. He is supposedly assassinated by the priests of the goddess who drop huge stones down on him from above and then cut his body in pieces.

a) Location: Persia - 1:13
b) Place: the temple of the goddess Nanea during his
wedding - 1:13 - 15
c) Cause: crushed to death by stones hurled down from
the ceiling and then dismembered - 1:16
d) People involved: Antiochus' attendants & the priests
of Nanea who kill him - 1:15
e) Dies: 1:16
f) Text: 2 Mac. 1:14 - 16

14 For Antiochus, as though he would marry her, came into the place, and his friends that were with him, to receive money in the name of a dowery.

15 Which when the priests of Nanea had set forth, and he was entered with a small company into the compass of the temple, they shut the temple as soon as Antiochus was come in:

16 and opening a privy door of the roof, they threw stones like thunderbolts, and struck down the captain, hewed them in pieces, smote off their heads, and cast them to those that were without.

3) His third death - The amazingly durable Antiochus dies his third and final time in 2 Maccabees 9:1-29. This time he is on his way to Jerusalem to wage war on the Jews. According to the text, God curses him and he is eaten by worms. Before he dies he repents of his evil intentions and writes a letter of peace to the Jews.

a) Location: the road to Jerusalem - 9:3 - 7
b) Place: on a mountain road - 9:8, 28
c) Cause:

1. God's curse on him - 9:5

2. He falls from his chariot - 9:7

3. worms eat him & his skin rots off - 9:9, 10

d) People involved: his chariot driver, his army - 9:4, 9

e) Dies: 9:28

f) In this account he repents and becomes a Jew and

then writes a letter of peace to the Jews.

g) Text: 2 Mac. 9:28

28 Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he entreated other men, so died in a miserable death in a strange country in the mountains. ..." - Sam Gipp's 24 Hour Seminar Notes, pages 78-80, reformatted.

We haven't even gotten to 3 and 4 Maccabees yet, but I will leave those for now, and return to Daniel 8 & 11's history as time allows ...

WithinReason · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

Let's see if this holds true, according to scripture, and historical sources, and then judge accordingly, and let us not deny the evidence before us.

Some attempt an '1150' (from 2,300), but this is nowhere found in the text, context or language. It is an imaginary number that denies the text itself.

In eisigesis (1150), this cannot but fail in its [scripture's, KJB] specificity also, for Antiochus' 3 years time or 3 ½ [Josephus, a traitor, turncoat, to the Jews, and one who did not accept Jesus Christ as Messiah, thus cannot understand the fulfillment of prophecy in relation to Him, as Daniel 8 and 9, etc is] does not specifically come to 2,300 nor 1,150 [physical days, for it comes to 3 years and slightly over 2 months [70 days]] either. There is no rational mathematical process that will ever make the history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes to fit either of those physical times, not even according to Maccabees:

1 Maccabees 4:41-43, 1 Maccabees 1:54 [early Dec 167 BC], 1 Maccabees 5:52-54 [so-called '1150', Dec. 14th 164 BC, St. Joseph's [Roman Catholic] Edition of New American Bible with Apocrypha, notation], Bishops' Bible:

1 Maccabees 1:54 Commaunding al the cities of Iuda to do sacrifice vnto idols.

1 Maccabees 4:41 Then Iudas appoynted certayne men to fight against those which were in the castle, till they had clensed the sanctuarie.

1 Maccabees 4:42 So he chose priestes that were vndefiled, such as had pleasure in the lawe of God:

1 Maccabees 4:43 And they clensed the sanctuarie, and bare out the defiled stones into an vncleane place.

1 Maccabees 5:52 Then went they ouer Iordane into the playne fielde before Bethsam.

1 Maccabees 5:53 And Iudas helped those forward that came behinde, and gaue the people good exhortation al the way through, til they were come into the lande of Iuda.

1 Maccabees 5:54 Thus they went vp vnto the mount Sion, where they offered burnt offeringes with mirth and thankesgeuing, because there were none of them slaine, but came home againe peaceably.

Notice the two given notation dates, which do not make up more than 3 years, and especially not 3 years and a little over 2 months [70 days]. Therefore, according to the historical records, Antiochus IV Epiphanes fails in this also.

Furthermore, we can compare what Antiochus IV Epiphanes [Greek king] did in the approximate 3 years [167 BC – 164 BC] in Judaea, with the specific amount of time given in the 2,300 “days” [Daniel 8:14], for the “vision” of the “evening and morning” [Daniel 8:26], [if we bypass the fact that the “vision” of the “daily” begins in the Persian empire, when the Temple itself was restored to full use] and see clearly it does not fit at all, for 2,300 [physical days] is 6 years and somewhat over 4 months [140 days] [where some get the information that it equals 6 years, three months and 18 days seems to be based upon the commentary of John Gill [Calvinistic] at Daniel 8:14, and his non-scriptural two conclusions [“... from the fifteenth day of the month Cisleu, in the year 145 of the Selucidae ...” and/or “... others begin from the defection of the people from the pure religion by Menelaus, Anno 141 …”, which do you subscribe to specifically, so we may test it historically?], yet scripturally [KJB] and especially in prophecy, a month is 30 days, and a year 360 days, see the section below, [A Month Is 30 Days]].

30 days = 1 month, 12 months [360 days] = 1 year:

360 days = 1 year

---------------

2160 days = 6 years

2300 – 2160 = 140 days left

30 days = 1 month

----------------------

120 days = 4 months

140 – 120 = 20 days left.

Thus physically, 6 years, 4 months and 20 days, according to the scriptural 30 day month and 360 day year. They will admit that Daniel 8 is prophecy, and yet deny the principle of day for year in the context, and gravitate instead to a solar year of 365.25 of today, which also denies the context and the scriptural use of days, week, months, years.

Even still, brother “Albert Barnes”, himself says in his notes [Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, Daniel 8:14]:

“... The time mentioned by Josephus is three years exactly from the time when “their Divine worship was fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use,” until the time when the lamps were lighted again, and the worship restored, for he says that the one event happened precisely three years after the other, on the same day of the month - Ant. b. xii. ch. vii. Section 6. In his Jewish Wars, however, b. i. ch. i. Section 1, he says that Antiochus “spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months.” ...”

“... The 2,300-day prophecy witnessed an amazing fulfillment during the terrifying reign of Antiochus. According to the Jewish calendar, the 2300 days works out to be six years, three months, and 18 days. This is the time period in which Antiochus took the daily sacrifices away, and at the end of the 2300 days, was eventually defeated. ...”

So those who advocate (1150) may say “2300” but, thy do not really mean 2,300, and yet even given their own timing [as others also borrowed from John Gill] , “... six years, three months, and 18 days ...” does not fit specifically with any given historical timeframe in regards Antiochus IV Epiphanes, in any given historical source [and John Gill's commentary doesn't help either, as he speculates without evidence in the last portion of the time, does not use scripture to explain the scripture at this point, and does not follow the scriptural 30 day months, 360 day years].

Any may look for themselves, and I will be awaiting for such a source to be given in demonstration, and to see the work shown in the time. The word “eventually” is very telling also, for it is clear they presently have a sliding time scale/events and not a precise one.

WithinReason · Feb 27, 2020

Now, we can look at Daniel 8 in some detail and see that the text explains to us what it is referring to. Let's look at the overall structure of Daniel 8 to begin with, as laying a foundation, the bare bones as it were, before we consider the muscle, veins, flesh and skin, down to the very hairs and pores.

Rondonmon · Feb 27, 2020

Lucy-Pevensie said:

The Beast System is WHOEVER Satan allows to Conquer/control the Mediterranean Sea Region WHILST Israel is in the land or as in Egypt's case we together as a Nation. The Anti-Christ will be the LAST BEAST, its a MAN, not a nation per se. Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 tells us its a MAN, because it says The Beast's body is destroyed and cast into hell in Dan. 7:11, and Rev. 19:20 says the False Prophet and Beast are cast into hell.

The Anti-Christ is going to wipe out Islam, those that look toward Islam are just as off-kilter as those who look to the RCC angle.

Rondonmon · Feb 27, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

He matches NOTHING in Daniel 8 brother. Nowhere in Daniel 8 is Antiochus spoken of. I have done a detailed Exegesis of Daniel 11 that shows who every king is and who all the players are, it took me a few months, I did that because no one understood Daniel 11 well enough to follow the whats and whys of the chapter. I learned so much from doing that, even though it took me months to do it. As a preacher I felt obligated when someone asked me a question about Daniel 11, I felt bereft of answers. Now I know who the False Prophet TYPE is {Jason} and who the Anti-Christ TYPE is {Antiochus, which I already knew} so there is a reason you might think its about Antiochus, hes was the TYPE Anti-Christ, but as I showed, he can't be who is spoken of in Daniel chapter 8, it clearly says he stands up against Jesus {Prince of princes} who slays him WITHOUT HANDS.

I find people are way too entrenched in their own ideas to see what God is trying to tell us much of the time, you know why I find that? Because I asked the holy spirit one night, why there are so many interpretations on who Babylon is, who the Harlot is, who the Beasts are etc. etc. and I got this "You guys already know everything Ron". Then it hit me, God can't unify us and teach us because we are doing what the Pharisees did, we are following MEN'S TRADITIONS instead of asking God to show us, especially on Prophetic Events, the books of Daniel and Revelation, as young Christians we defer to others because those books seem way too complicated, so we get MEN'S IDEAS ingrained into us and God has to OVERCOME those half-truths in order to teach us His truths.

So I put off all of my learned ways and started simply doing what I did in the Gospels 30-35 years ago, I just asked God what does this mean, and this and this......and God smiles {I am sure} realizing He can now teach me His truths without any hindrances from other men's ideas. And we men are too stubborn to be wrong, I on the other hand, have learned, when I am WRONG, that's a good thing, that proves God is teaching me His truths. So now I enjoy being wrong, because I know I am learning God's truths. Its OK to be wrong. But Satan uses the pride of life against us, we can't be wrong !! It is what it is my brother.

eternally-gratefull said:

If you had read my post in full I explain this. Dan 7 and Dan. 8 are BOTH about the Little Horn Anti-Christ, so we have to make BOTH Prophecies match up, the Anti-Christ has to come out of the Fourth Beast and out of one of the Four Generals kingdoms in the LATTER TIME. So if this confused you, it is, after all, a Riddle from God. He has to come out of BOTH at the same time and only Greece can accomplish this feat because out of the Four ONLY Greece is in the E.U. So just saying he has to come out of one of the Four doesn't stop this man from also being able to come out of the Fourth Beast in the LATTER TIMES {Now} because Greece is in the E.U. Just because you never saw that before doesn't make the factoids change brother. We can not see until God is ready to reveal, that is why we should not cling to OLD UNDERSTANDINGS that come from men, but we should rather get them straight from God is in these last days wants to show us His Mysteries/Secrets that have been bottled up until now, if only He can get past our MEN'S TRADITIONS !!

eternally-gratefull said:

Well, he was a TYPE....But in God's Holy Word brother, unless you match the full prophecy, you do not match in ANY WISE, being the ARCH TYPE he is going to match some things, but him not matching ALL THINGS means he matches NOTHING because it's not him. Antiochus was not slain by Jesus {Prince of princes} WITHOUT HAND {By the Sword of the Word}. The Anti-Christ who is born in Greece and comes to Power in the E.U. will become a Beast by Conquering Israel AND the Many Nations in the region. So he rules over Jerusalem in the LATTER TIMES, there is no way Antiochus can rule over Jerusalem in the LATTER TIMES {Now}, its impossible.

eternally-gratefull said:

Again, hes a TYPE Anti-Christ, he can match doing so in the LATTER TIMES !! Nor is he slain by Jesus {Prince of princes} nor does he come to power and destroy many BY PEACE.....That NEVER Happened brother. Of course, he's a TYPE, we all know that, so why wouldn't he do the same things, but he CAN'T MATCH, the timing doesn't match {LATTER TIMES} the interaction with Jesus is NOT THERE etc.

eternally-gratefull said:

And the History books do not cover the coming LATTER TIMES !!

We also can see the False Prophets TYPE in Jason if we study History, the False Prophet is going to be a Jewish High Priest.

Lucy-Pevensie · Feb 27, 2020

Rondonmon said:

Wipe out Islam? 1.8 Billion people spread throughout the whole world.

There is a Beast man yes. There is also a beast empire. Surely you haven't overlooked that?
That is clear in all the prophets and in Revelation.
Daniel and Revelation spell it out with specifics.

The EU, however horrible, is a political union made up of 27 26

member states. All Christian nations. It simply doesn't fit.
7 heads and ten horns is what you should be looking for.
The Bible isn't a Eurocentric book. It isn't about the USA or Europe. It's a thoroughly Mid-East focused story. Israel and the surrounding nations.

The beast you are looking for is an empire ridden by an anti-christ religion that is drunk on the blood of the saints.
An empire that is a geographical composite of Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Persia, & Ancient Greece. The Islamic Caliphate is the ONLY empire controlled by a religious-law system that has dominated the region and heavily persecuted Israel and Christians. You can't change that fact. It's 1400 years of Middle Eastern history. The head of the Caliphate was removed in 1924.
All seven heads of the beast are encompassed by the Islamic empire. Put the round peg in the round hole. It's not off-kilter.
Nothing else fits scripture like it. EVERY nation mentioned prophetically in judgement BY NAME is today Islamic.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 27, 2020

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Yes, I agree!

eternally-gratefull · Feb 27, 2020

The goat is greece, It follows and destroys the ram (media persia)

Its not rome, It looks nothing like rome, About the only thing in common is the little Horn, who like his or a counterpart. Puts and end to sacrifice Nd offering by commiting an abomination of desolation.
;

eternally-gratefull · Feb 27, 2020

Rondonmon said:

He matches NOTHING in Daniel 8 brother. Nowhere in Daniel 8 is Antiochus spoken of. I have done a detailed Exegesis of Daniel 11 that shows who every king is and who all the players are, it took me a few months, I did that because no one understood Daniel 11 well enough to follow the whats and whys of the chapter. I learned so much from doing that, even though it took me months to do it. As a preacher I felt obligated when someone asked me a question about Daniel 11, I felt bereft of answers. Now I know who the False Prophet TYPE is {Jason} and who the Anti-Christ TYPE is {Antiochus, which I already knew} so there is a reason you might think its about Antiochus, hes was the TYPE Anti-Christ, but as I showed, he can't be who is spoken of in Daniel chapter 8, it clearly says he stands up against Jesus {Prince of princes} who slays him WITHOUT HANDS.

I find people are way too entrenched in their own ideas to see what God is trying to tell us much of the time, you know why I find that? Because I asked the holy spirit one night, why there are so many interpretations on who Babylon is, who the Harlot is, who the Beasts are etc. etc. and I got this "You guys already know everything Ron". Then it hit me, God can't unify us and teach us because we are doing what the Pharisees did, we are following MEN'S TRADITIONS instead of asking God to show us, especially on Prophetic Events, the books of Daniel and Revelation, as young Christians we defer to others because those books seem way too complicated, so we get MEN'S IDEAS ingrained into us and God has to OVERCOME those half-truths in order to teach us His truths.

So I put off all of my learned ways and started simply doing what I did in the Gospels 30-35 years ago, I just asked God what does this mean, and this and this......and God smiles {I am sure} realizing He can now teach me His truths without any hindrances from other men's ideas. And we men are too stubborn to be wrong, I on the other hand, have learned, when I am WRONG, that's a good thing, that proves God is teaching me His truths. So now I enjoy being wrong, because I know I am learning God's truths. Its OK to be wrong. But Satan uses the pride of life against us, we can't be wrong !! It is what it is my brother.

If you had read my post in full I explain this. Dan 7 and Dan. 8 are BOTH about the Little Horn Anti-Christ, so we have to make BOTH Prophecies match up, the Anti-Christ has to come out of the Fourth Beast and out of one of the Four Generals kingdoms in the LATTER TIME. So if this confused you, it is, after all, a Riddle from God. He has to come out of BOTH at the same time and only Greece can accomplish this feat because out of the Four ONLY Greece is in the E.U. So just saying he has to come out of one of the Four doesn't stop this man from also being able to come out of the Fourth Beast in the LATTER TIMES {Now} because Greece is in the E.U. Just because you never saw that before doesn't make the factoids change brother. We can not see until God is ready to reveal, that is why we should not cling to OLD UNDERSTANDINGS that come from men, but we should rather get them straight from God is in these last days wants to show us His Mysteries/Secrets that have been bottled up until now, if only He can get past our MEN'S TRADITIONS !!

Well, he was a TYPE....But in God's Holy Word brother, unless you match the full prophecy, you do not match in ANY WISE, being the ARCH TYPE he is going to match some things, but him not matching ALL THINGS means he matches NOTHING because it's not him. Antiochus was not slain by Jesus {Prince of princes} WITHOUT HAND {By the Sword of the Word}. The Anti-Christ who is born in Greece and comes to Power in the E.U. will become a Beast by Conquering Israel AND the Many Nations in the region. So he rules over Jerusalem in the LATTER TIMES, there is no way Antiochus can rule over Jerusalem in the LATTER TIMES {Now}, its impossible.

Again, hes a TYPE Anti-Christ, he can match doing so in the LATTER TIMES !! Nor is he slain by Jesus {Prince of princes} nor does he come to power and destroy many BY PEACE.....That NEVER Happened brother. Of course, he's a TYPE, we all know that, so why wouldn't he do the same things, but he CAN'T MATCH, the timing doesn't match {LATTER TIMES} the interaction with Jesus is NOT THERE etc.

And the History books do not cover the coming LATTER TIMES !!

We also can see the False Prophets TYPE in Jason if we study History, the False Prophet is going to be a Jewish High Priest.

Don’t give me dan 11., we are talking about dan 8

daniel8 is about two kingdoms, the ram and the goat, the only two kimgdoms which they represent are media persia and Greece.

The goat is not both greece and Rome,

it is one nation

WithinReason · Feb 28, 2020

WithinReason said:

Now we can look at Daniel 8's structure, and also briefly compare it to Daniel 11, as Daniel 11, is the repeated parallel to Daniel 8.

For an overall picture of Daniel 8's structure, for instance,

Daniel 8, like Daniel 2 and 7, begins with a Vision, and is followed by the Explanation of that Vision.

Daniel 8's “the vision”- Daniel 8's “the interpretation”

Daniel 8:1 ------------ beginning

Daniel 8:2-4 ---------- Daniel 8:20

Daniel 8:5-7 ---------- Daniel 8:21

Daniel 8:8 ------------ Daniel 8:22

Daniel 8:9 -------------- Daniel 8:23[a.]

Daniel 8:10 ------------ Daniel 8:23[b.]

Daniel 8:11-12------- Daniel 8:24-26

semi - ending ------- Daniel 8:27 [picks up in Daniel 9, more on this later]

Moreover, here is the parallelism of Daniel 8 & 10,11-12

Daniel 8's “the interpretation” ---- Daniel 10/11/12 “the interpretation”

Daniel 8:1 - beginning --- Daniel 10:1-21,11:1

Daniel 8:2-4,20 ------------ Daniel 11:2

Daniel 8:50-7,21 ----------- Daniel 11:3

Daniel 8:8,22 --------------- Daniel 11:4,5-19

Daniel 8:9,23[a.] ------------ Daniel 11:20, [transition], 21-30

Daniel 8:10,23[b.] ---------- Daniel 11:31-39

Daniel 8:11-12,24-26 ----- Daniel 11:40[a] [enlarge] 40-45

Daniel 8:27 - ending ----- Daniel 12:1-3, [enlarge]

WithinReason · Feb 28, 2020

WithinReason said:

Correction, (suddenly lost my edit ability), Daniel 8:5-7,21 ------ Daniel 11:3.

Rondonmon · Feb 28, 2020

eternally-gratefull said:

No use in me even trying with you. You do not answer anything, I guess you can't rebut my replies so you just pretend I didn't inform you of things that totally disprove your concept brother. If you aren't, going to answer why bother replying?

And yes, Daniel 11 goes hand in hand with Dan. 7 and 8. The Anti-Christ comes out of both the Fourth Beast and one of the Four Generals Kingdom {Greece} at the same time. Ever wonder why do we get such a DETAILED RUNDOWN of the Greek Kings in Daniel 11 ? Because the Anti-Christ's LINEAGE is of Greece !! He's born in Greece. So in summary, he's born in Greece, comes to power in the E.U. centric Kingdom, and he is an Assyrian [Turk], Greece has a common border with Turkey, so a lot of Turks live in Greece.

The goat has NOTHING to do with the Prophecy past verse 8, it's all about the Anti-Christ after that. The Goat was Alexander the Great, again, just ignoring all the facts I posted about why Dan. 8's stern king can't be Antiochus, doesn't change the facts brother. Who cares who is right? We all just see darkly, until God reveals truth unto us.

God Bless......sleep well brother.

Daniel 8

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