Daniel 11:37, The Future Antichrist Will Be A Jew/Hebrew In Decent

GodMyFortress · May 22, 2021

Really, to be honest, I just don't know anything about churches or denominations. I was raised in a Presbyterian church, learned doctrine of free willism, discovered that wasn't biblical, and never went back. I tried a Lutheran church after that which seemed "luke warm," and had a giant life-sized modernist wood carving of a man hanging on a cross that I found very offensive. I don't like graven images. I sat in that church for about a year and little memory of it other than that offensive modern artistic graven image of Jesus on the cross.

After that, I have stuck to very strict solo scriptura study and am at a real disadvantage discussing churches and denominations because I don't know any of them and don't have the inclination to study them or their histories. Although in the past I have looked at the Mormons and their claim to have new prophesies, angelic tablets, blah, blah. I investigated them a little bit at the time Mit Romney was running against President Obama to determine what kind of man a Mormon might be as a president. I voted for Romney, though he is rather despicable to me these days. How church denominations are organized, their doctrines, their theologies, I just couldn't care less about them nowadays.

God commanded that graven images be made and placed on the arc of the covenant. God wouldn’t of asked his followers to do something that is forbidden. God is no hypocrite. It’s not the image of something in heaven God has a problem with, he doesn’t want idolatry.

TheDivineWatermark · May 22, 2021

OrphanedRepublican said:

I don't see where the text of Daniel 12:1-4 states that Michael *does* the *performing of prophecies*... I see where it says he is the one "which standeth for the children of thy [Daniel's] people" and who "at that time" being referenced "shall stand up"... but it doesn't go on to say he "resurrects" people [from the dead].

Verses 1-4 are about the nation of Israel "coming up out of the graveyard of nations," where scattered... (see my related post at LINK below)... and the passage just says "at that time" being referenced "thy [Daniel's] people will be delivered"... but the text doesn't connect this in such a way that it says "Michael" did it (or the other things there), does it? I'm not really seeing that, so much...

(not saying he's not involved whatsoever "at that time," just that he's not "raising ppl from the dead," or the like.

)

Post #1129 - https://christianchat.com/threads/support-israel-yes-or-no-and-why.198879/post-4564065 [LIKENING this UNTO 'a resurrection' just as in other passages regarding Israel's "FUTURE" - Ezek37:12-14,20-23; Hos5:14-6:3; Isa26:15-21; Rom11:15[25]; Dan12:1-4,10 ^ ; etc]

OrphanedRepublican · May 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

The clue that reveals this is in the subsequent verse. You have to study the Scriptures for clues to shed light and understanding. God hides truth and conceals matters in his word to his glory and to our honor to seek them out. Not everything is spelled out in a straight forward way. If you resist certain doctrines because they aren't spelled out for you to understand, then you are not investigating the clues.

Now, keep in mind, we are taught by the spirit. Many people are very dogmatic with church doctrines and creeds and the like. The things that I say come completely out from left field to many people. That means one of two things:

Either I'm damned because God refuses to shed light and teach me his doctrines though I study it diligently,

or

I'm rightly taught and I'm sharing Godly learning with others who are under incorrect dogmas.

For myself, I hope the latter.

Keep in mind, when Jesus spoke in synagogues, people were "astonished" at his doctrine. What does that tell you? It tells you that they have not been hearing the truth in a very long time.

TheDivineWatermark · May 22, 2021

When you say "the clue is in the subsequent verse," I assume you mean vv.5-8, or thereabouts, right?

What make you "connect" the personages under discussion? Just wondering...

posthuman · May 22, 2021

GodMyFortress said:

not "an" -- it says The Angel of the LORD -- the Hebrew has a definite article here that it doesn't have when we're talking about an ordinary angel.

OrphanedRepublican · May 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Well, no, actually.

What I mean by "clues" or "investigate clues" is to examine words and study words.

So, I'll break my thought process down. I read a paragraph and I ask questions about "what's this?" "Who's that?" "What's going on here?" Probably not unlike everyone else who studies.

So, I'll take 2 verses and put my question in parentheses next to it in a different color:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time (what time?) shall Michael (who?) stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people (who is this prince?): and there shall be a time of trouble, (what trouble?) such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, (Jesus is the deliverer?) every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, (upon Jesus return?) some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Then I will seek out the answers to my questions by examining the words and where they are found in the scriptures. I am very methodical about it. You can already see from my questions that I'm beginning to connect Jesus with Michael. But the description of "prince" is confusing because we read that Jesus is King of Kings of Israel. So, I'll examine prince in the scriptures. What I'll do after that is compare scriptures and when I get the answers, I connect dots and learn truth with the constant prayer in mind:

Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

posthuman · May 22, 2021

GodMyFortress said:

have a look at Genesis 22. verse 1 says it is God who tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac to Him.

But The Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”

So he said, “Here I am.”

And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

(Genesis 22:11-12)

here it is The Angel of the LORD who says Abraham has not withheld his only son from "Me"
The Angel of the LORD identifies Himself as God -- He doesn't say, 'the LORD says..' like a prophet would - He speaks as though He himself is God, thinking it not robbery!

who is He? what does the scripture indicate?

randyk · May 22, 2021

OrphanedRepublican said:

I agree with your political opinion, apparently, and also with your religious opinion about Lutherans, Mormons, etc. I do have a friend who is a Lutheran pastor, and he's actually really good. You can't judge all fish by a school of sick ones. Mormonism is a heretical Christian cult. They are externally Christian and biblical. But they interpret the Christian Scriptures differently, and with a different, exclusivistic spirit. Don't be fooled by them--apparently you're not.

I don't like the idea of "try it to see how good it is," instead of studying things against the Scripture first. Apparently you're good at beginning with Scripture only to start with? So I agree with much of what you say.

I don't really think Michael was Jesus. But I don't have a problem with Christians who may think so.

I do think you would do well to keep reading in these forums, and do independent research when a subject comes up that concerns you. I fell into a Christian cult many years ago, even though I was pretty well-established in the faith. But I was not particularly educated.

Fortunately, I moved to a city where one of the most effective apologists for the Christian faith in the US taught, and was particularly adept at dealing with cults. His name was Dr. Walter Martin. He wrote "Kingdom of the Cults," a classic work on the Christian cults in America. But he was capable of answering any question from a knowledgeable pov. His style, in particularly, spoke to me. On radio he was pretty strong. On Sunday mornings he was one of the funniest guys I ever heard!

Thanks for your input!

TheDivineWatermark · May 22, 2021

OrphanedRepublican said:

... how about comparing these with it?

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Daniel 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

[...whereas vv.5-6,16a,18,19,20,21,11:1,2a seems to be describing the one speaking to Daniel, here (and in this context)... who is that? That same particular "description" (esp as found in v.6) hadn't really seemed to accompany the parts about Gabriel in 8:15-19 / 9:21-23, but who knows... What do you think?]

DeanM · May 22, 2021

In Mathew 4:10 Jesus rebukes Satan. In Jude 9 Michael dares not do so.

GodMyFortress · May 22, 2021

posthuman said:

You can definitely see that God is speaking through the angel because the angel is speaking in the first-person.

In Verse 16 the Angel switches back to talking in the second-person saying “says the Lord”, so that Abraham knows what is being said by the angel is coming from God instead of the angel.

TheDivineWatermark · May 22, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

... well, I'm thinking perhaps a couple of those verses I listed might be referring to someone distinct from the other verses listed... but just a couple, it seems...

____________

As for verse 6 especially, (as I pointed out)... Gaebelein has this to say (and I fairly agree):

"This chapter [chpt 10] contains the preface to the final great prophecies as found in the last two chapters of this book. The certain man who appeared unto Daniel at the banks of the river Hiddekel (Tigris) was the Lord. Compare with Revelation 1:1-20, where John [...] beheld Him in a vision of glory. Daniel’s vision is a pre-incarnation vision of the same One whom John beheld after His resurrection and in His glorified humanity."

[it seems to me that perhaps v.18+ (who says the v.21 words) in Dan10 also is referring to this same One]

posthuman · May 22, 2021

GodMyFortress said:

yes, and 16 comes after 15 -- ((yay, math!)) --
before 15, The Messenger of the LORD speaks as though He Himself is the LORD
after 15, The Messenger of the LORD speaks as though giving the words of the LORD.

so why is verse 15 in the Bible -- "a second time" The Angel of the LORD speaks to Abraham?

what's important about it being "a second time" ? what is it telling us?
what happens in-between the 1st and 2nd time?
what is happening while He speaks the 1st time, & the 2nd time?
why does The Messenger of the LORD switch His grammar the 2nd time?
are we supposed to pick one and forget the other, or recognize both?

who else in the Bible speaks both as if He Himself is God, and as if He is The Servant, revealing the sayings of God?
who is this?

Hevosmies · May 22, 2021

crossnote said:

That the future antichrist will be Jewish.

Has to be cause: "God of your fathers"
Only Jews are waiting for the messiah since they dont believe in Jesus, and they'll get one, THE FALSE messiah. Until of course the remnant will be saved.
Jews would never accept anyone as the messiah who isnt a Jew.

OldSage · May 22, 2021

Rondonmon said:

Yes, AND he will be born in Greece AND he will come to power in the European Union.

In other words, he has to be a Turk or from the Iraqi/Turkish/Syrian area, but most of the Assyrian empire was in Northern Iraq and Southern Turkey. He only has to have that bloodline. He has to be born in Greece according to Daniel 8:9, there is no other argument, and it's not debatable, period. The bible tells us where he WAXES GREAT TOWARDS. In other words, God gives us a sorta four winds directional box, then he gives us Four Generals that represent those four corners, the main players are Seleucus(modern-day Turkey), Egypt, and Cassander (Greece). Then in the end times to says he WAXES GREAT TOWARDS, the East and TOWARDS the south, thus it can only be a King that coms out of the Northwest thus it can only be Greece. In Daniel 11:40-43 we see he conquers Israel and all of North Africa. Seleucus can't conquer the East unless he goes to war with Iran and Russia, besides this is supposed to be an INTER EMPIRE STRUGGLE for all of Daniel 11. Egypt gets conquered by the Anti-Christ, so says Dan. 11:40-43.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
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Lastly, this Anti-Christ also has to arise out of the Fourth Beasts Head, amongst the 10 Horns, and for nigh 2000 years or 1800 or 1600, (I think its nigh 2000, the Church delivered the Mortal Wound to the Beast Rome) so for nigh 2000 years IMHO, the 10 (which means COMPLETE Europe) were divided and could not reunite no matter what they tried, even via the seed of men (Royal Marriage) they failed to reunite, until Israel became a nation again, then within 10 years, you had the Council of Rome creating the European Union, which has Greece in it !! That is very important because this man is an Assyrian Turk and Turks have a common border with Greece and many Turks have migrated to Greece and vice versa, of course, thus this Assyrian can (was) be born in Greece, like Dan. 8:9 says, and he can then become the European President like Daniel chapter 7 says he will be.

Daniel 11 gives us his FORERUNNER in Antiochus, and he had a False Prophet FORERUNNER under him named Jason (real name Yeshua) who bribed Antiochus to be named the Hogh Priest, thus having his pious High Priest brother, Onias III killed. He then tried to Hellenize the Jews, leading to the Maccabean Revolt. And he also openly welcomed Antiochus into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus. The end times False Prophet will be a Jewish High Priest, the Anti-Christ little Horn has an Assyrian bloodline, he born in Greece (like Antiochus) and comes to power in the E.U.
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QUESTION GUYS: I saw something new last night in my studies of the 10 that were BROKEN APART and thus DIVIDED. When I thought about how I now think of the 10 as a Complete Europe DIVIDED, suddenly this verse could maybe be seen in a different light. Could this (I haven't studied it in-depth at all yet) BROKEN I PIECES actually be referencing the Iron and Clay portion of Daniel 2, where the Kingdom becomes broken up? Andis thus DIVIDED for many years !!

Dan. 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the FEET of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

So, as I looked, I wondered if it could mean this, Rome was exceedingly STRONG, then BROKE INTO PIECES (Iron and lay), and in the End Times, it STAMPED with its Feet (10 toes). Just the way my mind works, a lot of the times I will discount things after an in-depth study, but a lot of times I find hidden nuggets this way. What made me think, maybe it's not meaning that was right afterward it spoke about the 10 horns, which come from the head, not the feet of course.

Its interesting to me that Revelation focuses on what is modern Turkey, and that a city with 7 hills - e. g. Constantinople - features in the text. Erdogan really hates Israel. Just saying

OldSage · May 22, 2021

Michael

OrphanedRepublican said:

I follow a strict solo scriptura path.

I believe Jesus is referred to as Michael, the arch angel simply because of the meaning of arch angel: It's the chief messenger. There is no more messenger in chief than the Lord Jesus himself. He is the word. That's my rationale for my understanding that Michael the arch angel is our "Messenger in Chief," the Lord Jesus. Further, because God refers to Jesus as "David" in some instances, it is not a stretch of the imagination to understand that Jesus goes by many names as how God teaches by them.

Paul says in Colossians 1:15 that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Therefore, the Angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ.

In Judges Chapter 13, Manoah and his wife realized they saw God when the Angel of the Lord accepted and did "wondrously" their offering.

In Exodus 3, the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in a flame of fire (Exodus 3:2) and identifies himself as God calling out to Moses from the midst of the bush (Exodus 3:4) and in his conversation with Moses, identified himself as "the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Exodus 3:6)

In Genesis Chapter 16, when Hagar fled from Sarai, the Angel of the Lord spoke with her in the wilderness and "And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude." (Genesis 16:10) Further, she recognized that she had been visited by God and called the name of the Lord that spoke to her "Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 16:13) Further, the well is called Beerlahairoi which is "well of the Living One seeing me" (Genesis 16:14) Further, Kadesh and Bered mean (Kadesh = holy) and Bered = hail. The whole place is described by God in this event with Hagar and the Angel of the Lord as God seeing Hagar and saving her son and blessing him. Angels bring tidings, not blessings.

In Genesis Chapter 22:11-12, The Angel of the Lord calls out to stop Abraham from slaying Isaac and declares himself to be God when he says, "... seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

It is notable that the Angel of the Lord no longer appears after the birth of Jesus.

For these reasons and others I may not have thought to cite here, I believe the Angel of the Lord is our Lord Jesus Christ.

Michael could just be the Church.

posthuman · May 22, 2021

Hevosmies said:

'God of your fathers' could be any pagan god anyone's fathers worshipped. it was pointed out earlier in the thread that the God of Abraham's fathers wasn't the LORD -- because Abraham was raised pagan by a long line of pagans, but the true God called him out of it.
so it's not proof

the antichrist will deceive the whole world, not just Jews. not everyone is looking for the Jewish Messiah - Islam is waiting for the 12th imam, the LDS is waiting for the mormon on the white horse, Hindus are looking for an incarnation of Shiva or Vishnu, Buddhism is looking for, well, a buddah. but the antichrist will raise himself up above all gods, declaring himself god over them

the Jews have accepted all kinds of non-messianic gods. kinda the reason God gave the kingdom to Gentiles

interestingly tho Judas tried to make himself appear as Messiah. he led the disciples and tried to cast doubt on Jesus's authority, when He was anointed by Mary. Judas/Satan cast the 30 pieces of silver, which, reading Zechariah it looks like it's the Good Shepherd who does that. he & Satan ingratiate himself to the priesthood and lead a small army to deliver Jesus to them. Judas is setting himself up to take power.

crossnote · May 22, 2021

Hevosmies said:

Daniel 11:37 ESV
[37] He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.

How will he gain the approval of the Jews if he has no regard for any other god?
what makes more sense to me is his number associated with man being 666, perhaps a humanistic, socialistic like mentality.

OrphanedRepublican · May 22, 2021

OldSage said:

That is an interesting idea. But, then the logical question is, does the church possess the power and glory of the word? I think we all know the power, cause and effect of the word belongs to the chief messenger who will not share praise or glory with anyone. He empowers his angels to spread his word and perform miracles.

The empowerment of the word, is it in the church and its leadership or does it remain with the chief messenger who is the power behind it?

crossnote · May 22, 2021

OrphanedRepublican said:

The Chief Messenger, Jesus Christ, is the ORIGIN of the Message, angels and the Church just pass it on (they 'message' it).

Daniel 11:37, The Future Antichrist Will Be A Jew/Hebrew In Decent

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