Concerning the gift of tongues

[Lamar]

Your position is based on a logical fallacy. It is your claim that the manifestations seen today are not the same thing as in the early Church. It's your responsibility to prove your case, which you have completely failed to do. Don't try to reverse the burden of proof. Calling Blain "arrogant" is just a personal attack, not a rational argument.

Your line of argumentation is no better than that of ignorant Moslems, who demand a verse where Jesus says, "I am God" and refuse to consider the abundant evidence supporting the belief that He is.

Read the post again, it is CS1 that is making the claim not Blain.

It is the Pentecostals and their ilk that are making the claim. It is their claim that what they are doing today is akin to the manifestations of the 1st Century. It's their responsibility to prove their case, which they have completely failed to do. Don't try to reverse the burden of proof. He who claims proves.

Their line of argumentation is one based on a surmised view of what the experience of tongues was like during the 1st century.

A understanding based on speculation and not evidence.

 

[ocean]

Saying I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow Peter, or even I follow Christ promotes factions. When Paul said imitate me as I imitate Christ he didn't mean start a faction in my name, he just meant imitate his good conduct; which clearly wouldn't include promoting factions.

Exactly. However we should all follow Christ and that was what Paul was actually saying; but without bragging about it

 

[ocean]

That is the hate of those who think we are okay with the foolishness of those who abuse the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They don't know how many we have corrected, and in America, if you ask them to leave, they can go to a different fellowship or start their own and continue the foolishness. Paul addressed that very thing and even mentioned them by name in the epistles.

Well maybe not hate, but they think they have something to latch on to. It's boorish behavior and the cycle of rinse and repeat seems to be their latent position

 

[ocean]

People are well aware that not just churches with the label "Pentecostal" speak in tongues, we do not need you or CS1 to point this out.

Regardless, those who claim to speak in supernatural tongues are of the same ilk.

Well you don't seem to be. I would not expect you to be civil in your responses at this point. You don't disappoint

 

[ocean]

I think we should both follow Jesus as Lord and follow Paul as His primary apostle following Christ’s resurrection.

I have no problem studying and understanding what Paul writes and the how and the why of how he became the apostle to the Gentiles. In fact, I would greatly encourage it.

However that does not change the fact he said do not follow him. (again, personally. Paul did not have a divided mind, so he would not say follow me in one instance and then do not follow me follow Christ in another. He followed Christ and that is how he meant follow me) (shrugs)

BTW, it is not stated in scripture that Paul was the 'primary' apostle. Paul calls himself “the apostle to the Gentiles” in Romans 11:13.

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

He certainly preached to the Jews as well, but God's specific purpose for him, was to go the Gentiles. And here we are

 

[ocean]

Thanks. As you might realize, I choose both-and when possible, as in 1Cor.11:1.

Understood

 

[ocean]

.. some are so worried about getting the gift of the Holy Spirit, and speaking in tougnes that the things that really matter become unvalued.
For example ... what is more important?
Receiving the Holy Spirit into your heart to help you surrender bad habits and sin. Or receiving the Spirit so you can speak in tougnes? ????

No one said that anywhere so why do think to instruct us all regarding this notion? The op is about the gift of tongues so surprise! that is what is being discussed. There are other spiritual gifts. BTW, it is Christ we receive when we accept God's gift of salvation. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit at such a time.

Tougnes was given for the reason above...
PRACTICAL reasons.

You need to brush up on your biblical knowledge regarding tongues and the rest of the gifts. The gifts have not ceased.

Tougnes are always related to languages in the bible.

Not true. Again, brush up on the gifts.

No language barriers ment no reason to give the gift of tougnes.

A time honored position for cessationists but not found in scripture.

 

[Blain]

It is rather common for someone to proclaim that they "have won the debate" when wishing to not continue a subject.

No one has "won the debate".

If you no longer wish to continue this exchange simply stop responding but please do not simply claim victory.

I could easily do the same.

oh I am fine continuing the debate the issue is you have nothing to offer no scripture no points that can refute the verse @Dino246 provided and even cs1 can see that all you do is attack and accuse that is why I say you have lost the debate not because I no longer wish to debate it

 

[Blain]

Read the post again, it is CS1 that is making the claim not Blain.

It is the Pentecostals and their ilk that are making the claim. It is their claim that what they are doing today is akin to the manifestations of the 1st Century. It's their responsibility to prove their case, which they have completely failed to do. Don't try to reverse the burden of proof. He who claims proves.

Their line of argumentation is one based on a surmised view of what the experience of tongues was like during the 1st century.

A understanding based on speculation and not evidence.

Actually I am with cs1 on this so if you attack him your attacking me as well because we both agree on this. I find it odd that you say a understanding based on speculation is not evidence as you have yet to show any evidence just speculation while we have shown many times with scripture mind you that the gifts have not ceased. your issue with pentecostals is your weakness in this it blinds you to the truth and you group all pentecostals together as if they all share the same faults you accuse others on this thread you attack when backed up in a corner this is not the spirit of God you are showing but of the enemy is he not the accuser? does he not attack?

Please stop this nonsese and show us evidence with scripture if you cannot or will not we can only assume your out of ammo here

 

[GWH]

I have no problem studying and understanding what Paul writes and the how and the why of how he became the apostle to the Gentiles. In fact, I would greatly encourage it.

However that does not change the fact he said do not follow him. (again, personally. Paul did not have a divided mind, so he would not say follow me in one instance and then do not follow me follow Christ in another. He followed Christ and that is how he meant follow me) (shrugs)

BTW, it is not stated in scripture that Paul was the 'primary' apostle. Paul calls himself “the apostle to the Gentiles” in Romans 11:13.

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

He certainly preached to the Jews as well, but God's specific purpose for him, was to go the Gentiles. And here we are

Yes, accepting Jesus as Lord means that we should not follow Paul if he contradicts what Jesus taught, although it might be noted that the epistles were written before the gospels, and Paul's assistants Mark and Luke wrote two of those.

Yes, Paul refers to himself as the least of the apostles, possibly playing on the meaning of Paul, which is little.

 

[TrustandObey]

Sigh.
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Romans 3

Paul meant follow Christ when he said imitate. BECAUSE HE FOLLOWED CHRIST. Context is, once again, king.

"Paul meant"?

Paul wrote what he meant.

Here is the verse:


1 Corinthians 11:1
New International Version
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.


Paul certainly could have taken himself out of the verse but chose not to.

Paul expected Christians to use him as an example of how to behave spiritually toward God.

There is nothing in the context that implies otherwise.

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

1st Corinthians 3:4 and 1st Corinthians 11:1 are two different subjects.

 

[TrustandObey]

Actually I am with cs1 on this so if you attack him your attacking me as well because we both agree on this. I find it odd that you say a understanding based on speculation is not evidence as you have yet to show any evidence just speculation while we have shown many times with scripture mind you that the gifts have not ceased. your issue with pentecostals is your weakness in this it blinds you to the truth and you group all pentecostals together as if they all share the same faults you accuse others on this thread you attack when backed up in a corner this is not the spirit of God you are showing but of the enemy is he not the accuser? does he not attack?

Please stop this nonsese and show us evidence with scripture if you cannot or will not we can only assume your out of ammo here

Demanding that someone prove something does not exist is absurd.

Can you prove that Bigfoot does not exist?

You believe that people are currenting manifesting supernatural gifts akin to those exhibited in the 1st century then where is its prima facie?

Presenting verses that describe these gifts happening 2000 years ago is not proof they are currently happening.

I believe that the law of gravity is currently active. I do not need a physics book for someone to prove it.
If the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit were currently active as during the 1st century I would not need you to point it out from the Bible.

You are simply fighting the obvious and making Christianity look like a confederacy of dunces.

 

[GWH]

"Paul meant"?

Paul wrote what he meant.

Here is the verse:


1 Corinthians 11:1
New International Version
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.


Paul certainly could have taken himself out of the verse but chose not to.

Paul expected Christians to use him as an example of how to behave spiritually toward God.

There is nothing in the context that implies otherwise.

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

1st Corinthians 3:4 and 1st Corinthians 11:1 are two different subjects.

Yes, not that he claimed to be perfect, and his desire was for everyone to be a good example (per Phil.3:12-4:1).

 

[studier]

and making Christianity look like a confederacy of dunces.

Sadly, for the most part, on the surface, I'm afraid this says it all.

 

[ocean]

Actually, I am amazed that so many folks think Paul's writings were not inspired by Jesus and thus should not be followed.
I thought only Jude and James were considered problematic by some.

Kindly show us who said Paul's epistles were not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

We're waiting........

Kind of sad dontcha think if you have to make up something?

 

[ocean]

Yes, accepting Jesus as Lord means that we should not follow Paul if he contradicts what Jesus taught, although it might be noted that the epistles were written before the gospels, and Paul's assistants Mark and Luke wrote two of those.

Yes, Paul refers to himself as the least of the apostles, possibly playing on the meaning of Paul, which is little.

Do you teach that unless a person says 'Jesus is Lord' they are not really saved? You know, how would we, in this century, know all that Jesus OR Paul taught? I would also like to remind you that if Paul thought something he was saying was not inspired by the Holy Spirit, he actually said so.

I don't think the order matters as much as you do. Nothing changes if it is the truth.

 

[ocean]

"Paul meant"?

Paul wrote what he meant.

Here is the verse:


1 Corinthians 11:1
New International Version
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.


Paul certainly could have taken himself out of the verse but chose not to.

Paul expected Christians to use him as an example of how to behave spiritually toward God.

There is nothing in the context that implies otherwise.

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

1st Corinthians 3:4 and 1st Corinthians 11:1 are two different subjects.

Do not agree. You cannot take one verse and create a doctrine out of it which is what you would be doing by quoting Paul out of context. I understand why you keep pumping your view here though. Your entire group would be put out to learn that they just might be kind of ... well...not exactly obeying as they thought they were. And you know what I mean.

If Paul did not mean follow Christ (as you seem to say) then he was saying follow me which is in direct opposition to his correction of the Corinthians. Ain't nobody else but you saying that including other Cessationists.

What is really going on, is that YOU don't want to take YOURSELF out of that verse. Your doctrines, for your truth seekers group, are all based on what Paul taught. If you wanted the truth so bad, I am thinking you would see and understand what you have done with regards to following Paul.

Tell you what though, I am not going over this again because the Bible is plain, Paul is plain and the Holy Spirit is also plain when you have eyes to see and ears to hear. Let me translate that for you: I am not responding to anymore of your 'I follow Paul' posts. Follow who and as you will.

 

[Blain]

Demanding that someone prove something does not exist is absurd.

Can you prove that Bigfoot does not exist?

You believe that people are currenting manifesting supernatural gifts akin to those exhibited in the 1st century then where is its prima facie?

Presenting verses that describe these gifts happening 2000 years ago is not proof they are currently happening.

I believe that the law of gravity is currently active. I do not need a physics book for someone to prove it.
If the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit were currently active as during the 1st century I would not need you to point it out from the Bible.

You are simply fighting the obvious and making Christianity look like a confederacy of dunces.

how is it absurd when you have demanded the same for them existing? if I make a claim that the gifts still exist today should I not back up that claim? if one claims they do not then should they not prove they do not? if you cannot prove they no longer exist then all your doing is making a claim with nothing to back it up and for that matter scripture proves they have not ceased but no scripture has shwon they do not as for your remark of me making Christianity look like dunces I don't really care what you think on that all I have done is try to get you guys to stop beating around the bush and either prove your stance or else you have nothing to offer in this discussion and my claim of the gifts still operating today has not been disproven so if this remark of yours is not only unwarrented but is laughable at this point

 

[Mem]

Those that heard the apostles speaking in tongues said, "they must be drunk..." Why would anyone make such a comment, considering that the apostles certainly were not drunk?

 

[Blain]

Those that heard the apostles speaking in tongues said, "they must be drunk..." Why would make such a comment, considering that the apostles certainly were not drunk?

Good question perhaps to some it sounded like giberish but to others they heard their native tongue