Closing the Gap in Dispensationalism
- Thread starter Dave-L
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Its not evil. Its calamity of disaster.
2 reasons:
1. "That which fills the heart proceeds out of the mouth". If God spoke evil, then there would be evil in His heart. Good luck defending that.
2. God commands us to not speak evil toward anyone. His commandments are a reflection of His character. He wouldn't tell us to do something if it wasn't something He would do.
That being said....we know that רָעָה (rā·ʿā(h) cannot be translated "evil" because it would contradict Scripture.
Even if God did in some sort of way "speak evil"....it would only be Him declaring what they brought upon themselves, not God's doing.
2 reasons:
1. "That which fills the heart proceeds out of the mouth". If God spoke evil, then there would be evil in His heart. Good luck defending that.
2. God commands us to not speak evil toward anyone. His commandments are a reflection of His character. He wouldn't tell us to do something if it wasn't something He would do.
That being said....we know that רָעָה (rā·ʿā(h) cannot be translated "evil" because it would contradict Scripture.
Even if God did in some sort of way "speak evil"....it would only be Him declaring what they brought upon themselves, not God's doing.
"Here we see God’s usage of a lying spirit to accomplish his purposes. Similarly, God’s anger “stirred up” David (2Sm 24:1) to sin by permitting Satan to incite David to sin (1Ch 21:1). Without pretending to answer all the questions about this issue, we can say that God, at the least, permitted a lying spirit to mislead Ahab for a time. Note too that the deceit was given to prophets who were already presenting false witness. In the end, the true prophet told Ahab the truth—he would die if he went to battle."
-Bowling, A. C. (2017). 1 Kings. In E. A. Blum & T. Wax (Eds.), CSB Study Bible: Notes (p. 549). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
"Jehoshaphat was not satisfied with the prophets at Ahab’s court and insisted on hearing from the prophet of the LORD. Micaiah, brought from Ahab’s prison, predicted that Ahab would be killed in defeat. Ahab ridiculed his prophecy. But Micaiah told him how in a vision he had seen God send a deceiving spirit to mislead Ahab’s counselors (22:1–28).
This vision does not mean that Micaiah believed God was a liar. This vision was a pictorial way to explain that God had permitted the false prophets to mislead Ahab to effect His divine judgment."
-Dockery, D. S. (Ed.). (1992). Holman Bible Handbook (p. 257). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
"Ahab realizes Micaiah has not spoken the word of the Lord and calls for the truth. Micaiah complies. Israel will be scattered like sheep without a shepherd (i.e., Ahab will be gone). Though Ahab protests, Micaiah continues. The Lord has sent a lying spirit to Ahab’s prophets to lure him to Ramoth-Gilead and his death. The Lord has decreed disaster for Ahab and Israel. When challenged by Zedekiah the false prophet, Micaiah declares that when the prophets go into hiding they will know he spoke the truth. Ahab responds by imprisoning Micaiah; he thus demonstrates his rejection of the counsel of the Lord"
-Van Groningen, G. (1995). 1-2 Kings. In Evangelical Commentary on the Bible (Vol. 3, p. 250). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.
-Bowling, A. C. (2017). 1 Kings. In E. A. Blum & T. Wax (Eds.), CSB Study Bible: Notes (p. 549). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
"Jehoshaphat was not satisfied with the prophets at Ahab’s court and insisted on hearing from the prophet of the LORD. Micaiah, brought from Ahab’s prison, predicted that Ahab would be killed in defeat. Ahab ridiculed his prophecy. But Micaiah told him how in a vision he had seen God send a deceiving spirit to mislead Ahab’s counselors (22:1–28).
This vision does not mean that Micaiah believed God was a liar. This vision was a pictorial way to explain that God had permitted the false prophets to mislead Ahab to effect His divine judgment."
-Dockery, D. S. (Ed.). (1992). Holman Bible Handbook (p. 257). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
"Ahab realizes Micaiah has not spoken the word of the Lord and calls for the truth. Micaiah complies. Israel will be scattered like sheep without a shepherd (i.e., Ahab will be gone). Though Ahab protests, Micaiah continues. The Lord has sent a lying spirit to Ahab’s prophets to lure him to Ramoth-Gilead and his death. The Lord has decreed disaster for Ahab and Israel. When challenged by Zedekiah the false prophet, Micaiah declares that when the prophets go into hiding they will know he spoke the truth. Ahab responds by imprisoning Micaiah; he thus demonstrates his rejection of the counsel of the Lord"
-Van Groningen, G. (1995). 1-2 Kings. In Evangelical Commentary on the Bible (Vol. 3, p. 250). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.
another "take a dose of your own medicine", Dave-L ... instead of complaining about how you don't want to "read long posts", just read the post and submit your Scriptural support as to why you disagree.
However, to placate you, I will go back ... find the post which reveals why you are mistaken in your interpretation, and resubmit it.
Here you go:
Further, when Ahab imprisoned Micaiah until I come in peace (1 Kings 22:27), Micaiah told Ahab If thou return at all in peace, the Lord hath not spoken by me (1 Kings 22:28).
Michaiah revealed the true prophecy of God, Ahab's prophets lied to Ahab, and Micaiah revealed the lie to Ahab.
So, Dave-L, as you can see, your understanding completely lacks Scriptural support and appears to be the ramblings of one who has been blown about by a wind of doctrine by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).
/
However, to placate you, I will go back ... find the post which reveals why you are mistaken in your interpretation, and resubmit it.
Here you go:
From Post #488
You continue to assert that because, according to you, God put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets (1 Kings 22:23), the prophets lied when they told Ahab to Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king (1 Kings 22:6).
If it was God’s purpose to lie to Ahab (as you claim), God would not have revealed the lie to Ahab in 1 Kings 22:19-23.
God would just have the prophets lie (as you claim He did) and then say nothing ... iow, just let Ahab believe the lie.
But that is not what God did. Here is what God did:
If it was God’s purpose to lie to Ahab (as you claim), God would not have revealed the lie to Ahab in 1 Kings 22:19-23.
God would just have the prophets lie (as you claim He did) and then say nothing ... iow, just let Ahab believe the lie.
But that is not what God did. Here is what God did:
God revealed the lie Ahab's prophets told Ahab (1 Kings 22:19-23), and
God told Ahab that if he went to Ramothgilead, Israel would be scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd … having no master (1 Kings 22:17). In other words, Ahab would die.
Further, when Ahab imprisoned Micaiah until I come in peace (1 Kings 22:27), Micaiah told Ahab If thou return at all in peace, the Lord hath not spoken by me (1 Kings 22:28).
Michaiah revealed the true prophecy of God, Ahab's prophets lied to Ahab, and Micaiah revealed the lie to Ahab.
So, Dave-L, as you can see, your understanding completely lacks Scriptural support and appears to be the ramblings of one who has been blown about by a wind of doctrine by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).
/
And you need to remember, @Dave-L, that when a prophet speaks "presumptuously", that prophet has not spoken what God has spoken:
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Since we know that what Ahab's prophets had said did not come to pass, we know that they spoke "presumptuously" (i.e. not what God has spoken).
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Since we know that what Ahab's prophets had said did not come to pass, we know that they spoke "presumptuously" (i.e. not what God has spoken).
I haven't read the whole thread, but I am Reformed. I will answer this question if possible.
Either we are dead before Christ saves us, and HE makes us new creatures in Christ, or we are what? Half dead? 25% dead? Good people naturally? (Which contradicts Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,") If you are dead in your sins, how can you choose Christ? read this passage:
"1 And although you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the domain of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up together with him and seated us together with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;" Eph 2:1-8
Salvation is so much more than a personal decision changing you from dead to alive. I don't know about you, but I didn't have the power to change my life from dead, to alive in Christ. Only God has the power to make that kind of change.
I think that sometimes people who make a decision for Christ, God has wooed them, and brought them to a point for him to save them. So, did the sinner's prayer save them, or was God using this time to sovereignly save them? I believe it was God. Humans are not given the privilege of saving themselves!
I was involved with counselling and follow up with the Billy Graham Crusade in Vancouver in 1984. I watched thousands go to the front and say a sinner's prayer and sign a card saying they were saved. For follow up, I was on a team of 10 people, where we each had to phone 10 people. The idea was to help them follow up, get them in a church or Bible study.
I was very embarrassed, that none of the 10 people I phoned was interested in follow up. So did their decision save them? I don't think so! But even worse, the 100 people in our group we contacted, not one person wanted to follow up. And the leader of my group told me almost none of those thousands and thousands of people who were willing to sign a card, come to the front, and give out their phone number, followed up by going to church or a Bible study.
IOW, decisional regeneration doesn't work. God was NOT in that place. I have nothing against Billy Graham and his association, but what ever he did in the 1950s and 1960s that succeeded, no longer worked in 1984, and certainly doesn't work now. Decisional regeneration is NOT a Biblical model. We cannot raise ourselves from the dead. Only God can do that. Here are some final verses.
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:17-19
I do not believe someone who believes they saved themselves is necessarily unsaved. God could have saved them at any point. If they are doing works and bearing fruit, that is between them and God.
But how can putting God first, believing he took me from darkness to light, from dead to alive, and believing God is sovereign in justification possible mean I am not saved and going to hell? God controls my life, and I obey. And the more I obey, the more sanctified I become, the more I grow.
And remember, sanctification is synergistic. That means the Holy Spirit leads us, and we cooperate. But even not cooperating doesn't mean we lose our salvation, but rather the rewards of being a good and faithful servant.
Not sure that answers your question, but I hope it helps you make some sense of this soteriological debate!
Either we are dead before Christ saves us, and HE makes us new creatures in Christ, or we are what? Half dead? 25% dead? Good people naturally? (Which contradicts Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,") If you are dead in your sins, how can you choose Christ? read this passage:
"1 And although you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the domain of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up together with him and seated us together with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;" Eph 2:1-8
Salvation is so much more than a personal decision changing you from dead to alive. I don't know about you, but I didn't have the power to change my life from dead, to alive in Christ. Only God has the power to make that kind of change.
I think that sometimes people who make a decision for Christ, God has wooed them, and brought them to a point for him to save them. So, did the sinner's prayer save them, or was God using this time to sovereignly save them? I believe it was God. Humans are not given the privilege of saving themselves!
I was involved with counselling and follow up with the Billy Graham Crusade in Vancouver in 1984. I watched thousands go to the front and say a sinner's prayer and sign a card saying they were saved. For follow up, I was on a team of 10 people, where we each had to phone 10 people. The idea was to help them follow up, get them in a church or Bible study.
I was very embarrassed, that none of the 10 people I phoned was interested in follow up. So did their decision save them? I don't think so! But even worse, the 100 people in our group we contacted, not one person wanted to follow up. And the leader of my group told me almost none of those thousands and thousands of people who were willing to sign a card, come to the front, and give out their phone number, followed up by going to church or a Bible study.
IOW, decisional regeneration doesn't work. God was NOT in that place. I have nothing against Billy Graham and his association, but what ever he did in the 1950s and 1960s that succeeded, no longer worked in 1984, and certainly doesn't work now. Decisional regeneration is NOT a Biblical model. We cannot raise ourselves from the dead. Only God can do that. Here are some final verses.
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:17-19
I do not believe someone who believes they saved themselves is necessarily unsaved. God could have saved them at any point. If they are doing works and bearing fruit, that is between them and God.
But how can putting God first, believing he took me from darkness to light, from dead to alive, and believing God is sovereign in justification possible mean I am not saved and going to hell? God controls my life, and I obey. And the more I obey, the more sanctified I become, the more I grow.
And remember, sanctification is synergistic. That means the Holy Spirit leads us, and we cooperate. But even not cooperating doesn't mean we lose our salvation, but rather the rewards of being a good and faithful servant.
Not sure that answers your question, but I hope it helps you make some sense of this soteriological debate!
And you also need to remember, @Dave-L, that God does not lie:
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie ...
... just trying to keep my posts short for you Dave-L
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie ...
... just trying to keep my posts short for you Dave-L
No commentary exists which is better than Scripture.
Since we know from the record that the prophecy of Ahab's false prophets did not come to pass, we know that what they spoke was not from God:
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Since we know from the record that the prophecy of Micaiah is what came to pass, we know that Micaiah spoke the word of the Lord.
In exposing the lies of Ahab's prophets (1 Kings 22:19-23) and in prophesying that Israel would be without a king (1 Kings 22:17) and that Ahab would not return in peace (1 Kings 22:28), Micaiah spoke the word of the Lord.
Since we know from the record that the prophecy of Ahab's false prophets did not come to pass, we know that what they spoke was not from God:
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Since we know from the record that the prophecy of Micaiah is what came to pass, we know that Micaiah spoke the word of the Lord.
In exposing the lies of Ahab's prophets (1 Kings 22:19-23) and in prophesying that Israel would be without a king (1 Kings 22:17) and that Ahab would not return in peace (1 Kings 22:28), Micaiah spoke the word of the Lord.
All what people?
You're the only one who has pulled 1 Kings 22:19-23 out of context when it is clear from the passage that God, in fact, sent warning to Ahab:
Ahab chose to believe his false prophets even after God warned Ahab the prophets lied to Ahab ... and even after Micaiah provided God's true prophecy ...
The word spoken by Micaiah was proven to be what God had spoken.
The word spoken by Ahab's false prophets was proven to be not the word of the Lord:
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
You're the only one who has pulled 1 Kings 22:19-23 out of context when it is clear from the passage that God, in fact, sent warning to Ahab:
(1) that Ahab's prophets were lying to Ahab;
(2) that if Ahab went up to Ramothgilead, Israel would be without a king;
(3) that Ahab would not return in peace.
Ahab chose to believe his false prophets even after God warned Ahab the prophets lied to Ahab ... and even after Micaiah provided God's true prophecy ...
The word spoken by Micaiah was proven to be what God had spoken.
The word spoken by Ahab's false prophets was proven to be not the word of the Lord:
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
"Here we see God’s usage of a lying spirit to accomplish his purposes. Similarly, God’s anger “stirred up” David (2Sm 24:1) to sin by permitting Satan to incite David to sin (1Ch 21:1). Without pretending to answer all the questions about this issue, we can say that God, at the least, permitted a lying spirit to mislead Ahab for a time. Note too that the deceit was given to prophets who were already presenting false witness. In the end, the true prophet told Ahab the truth—he would die if he went to battle."
-Bowling, A. C. (2017). 1 Kings. In E. A. Blum & T. Wax (Eds.), CSB Study Bible: Notes (p. 549). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
"Jehoshaphat was not satisfied with the prophets at Ahab’s court and insisted on hearing from the prophet of the LORD. Micaiah, brought from Ahab’s prison, predicted that Ahab would be killed in defeat. Ahab ridiculed his prophecy. But Micaiah told him how in a vision he had seen God send a deceiving spirit to mislead Ahab’s counselors (22:1–28).
This vision does not mean that Micaiah believed God was a liar. This vision was a pictorial way to explain that God had permitted the false prophets to mislead Ahab to effect His divine judgment."
-Dockery, D. S. (Ed.). (1992). Holman Bible Handbook (p. 257). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
"Ahab realizes Micaiah has not spoken the word of the Lord and calls for the truth. Micaiah complies. Israel will be scattered like sheep without a shepherd (i.e., Ahab will be gone). Though Ahab protests, Micaiah continues. The Lord has sent a lying spirit to Ahab’s prophets to lure him to Ramoth-Gilead and his death. The Lord has decreed disaster for Ahab and Israel. When challenged by Zedekiah the false prophet, Micaiah declares that when the prophets go into hiding they will know he spoke the truth. Ahab responds by imprisoning Micaiah; he thus demonstrates his rejection of the counsel of the Lord"
-Van Groningen, G. (1995). 1-2 Kings. In Evangelical Commentary on the Bible (Vol. 3, p. 250). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.
-Bowling, A. C. (2017). 1 Kings. In E. A. Blum & T. Wax (Eds.), CSB Study Bible: Notes (p. 549). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
"Jehoshaphat was not satisfied with the prophets at Ahab’s court and insisted on hearing from the prophet of the LORD. Micaiah, brought from Ahab’s prison, predicted that Ahab would be killed in defeat. Ahab ridiculed his prophecy. But Micaiah told him how in a vision he had seen God send a deceiving spirit to mislead Ahab’s counselors (22:1–28).
This vision does not mean that Micaiah believed God was a liar. This vision was a pictorial way to explain that God had permitted the false prophets to mislead Ahab to effect His divine judgment."
-Dockery, D. S. (Ed.). (1992). Holman Bible Handbook (p. 257). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
"Ahab realizes Micaiah has not spoken the word of the Lord and calls for the truth. Micaiah complies. Israel will be scattered like sheep without a shepherd (i.e., Ahab will be gone). Though Ahab protests, Micaiah continues. The Lord has sent a lying spirit to Ahab’s prophets to lure him to Ramoth-Gilead and his death. The Lord has decreed disaster for Ahab and Israel. When challenged by Zedekiah the false prophet, Micaiah declares that when the prophets go into hiding they will know he spoke the truth. Ahab responds by imprisoning Micaiah; he thus demonstrates his rejection of the counsel of the Lord"
-Van Groningen, G. (1995). 1-2 Kings. In Evangelical Commentary on the Bible (Vol. 3, p. 250). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.
I trust Scripture over commentary.
When Scripture tells me that when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not follow, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken (Deuteronomy 18:22) ...
When Scripture tells me that Ahab's prophets told Ahab Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king (1 Kings 22:6) ...
When Scripture tells me that Ramothgilead was not "delivered into the hand of the king" as Ahab's prophets had claimed it would be ...
I know that what Ahab's prophets told Ahab was not what the Lord had spoken.
When Scripture tells me that when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not follow, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken (Deuteronomy 18:22) ...
When Scripture tells me that Ahab's prophets told Ahab Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king (1 Kings 22:6) ...
When Scripture tells me that Ramothgilead was not "delivered into the hand of the king" as Ahab's prophets had claimed it would be ...
I know that what Ahab's prophets told Ahab was not what the Lord had spoken.
First of all, Dave-L, there are many believers "of worth" who are members of ChristianChat. I consider the believers here to be very proficient in their study of Scripture. No one has stepped forward to state I am in error. And I submitted my understanding of this passage numerous times in this thread and here in the other thread you started.
If I am in error, believe me Dave-L, my brothers and sisters in Christ would let me know because all who are in Christ Jesus do not want people to be in error when it comes to understanding God's Word.
Even you have not submitted any proof I am in error ... other than your weak argument that I need to go find "other commentaries" because you are unable to prove I am incorrect.
You are engaging in fallacious argument ... which is a poor debate tactic used by those who cannot refute the central point.
If I am in error, believe me Dave-L, my brothers and sisters in Christ would let me know because all who are in Christ Jesus do not want people to be in error when it comes to understanding God's Word.
Even you have not submitted any proof I am in error ... other than your weak argument that I need to go find "other commentaries" because you are unable to prove I am incorrect.
You are engaging in fallacious argument ... which is a poor debate tactic used by those who cannot refute the central point.
-
1
- Show all