Christ kept the Law of Moses, so....

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TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#21
Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
#21
Papermonkey said:
Some say the 10 no longer apply. That is not true. God wrote his laws in our hearts so we're not far from them.
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Some say they ALL apply so that they can say that non apply, and Some say 9 apply, some say only the 2 love priciples apply.

The word "Law" is what most dissagrements are over. What the law means.

i could go through them all but,.... the Law Of God,.... The Law of the Lord,.... The Law Of Moses,.... the law of Liberty,... the law of commandments contained in ordinances; Are just a few.

God is a resonable God and a God of Order. Sin is the enemy and SIN is the transgression of the law. But which law?

The law of love is what all other laws and principles hang on.

Gen 13 tells us that "the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord." Since sin is violating God's law, the people of Sodom could not have been punished for being wicked and sinful if no law condemned what they were doing. We must conclude, therefore, that God had already made available the knowledge of what is sinful.
Gen 20:3-9 and 39:7-9 describe adultery as "a great sin" and a "sin against God." Adultery breaks the Seventh Commandment.
In Gen 3:6-17, God punishes Adam and Eve for their coveting and stealing—breaking the Tenth and Eighth Commandments. They also dishonored Him as their parent, violating the Fifth Commandment.
In Gen 4:9-12, God punishes Cain for murder and lying—violations of the Sixth and Ninth Commandments.

Do you think God has changed what sin is?
Do you think God wants us to keep the law today?

Which law is Paul talking about in Romans 3:31?
 
P

Papermonkey

Active member
#22
Dec 2, 2022
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#22
GaryA said:
I know what I believe. (I have already made that effort.)

I am asking it of you because you are the one who made the statement.

I am simply asking you to further explain the answer from your original statement as to what range of time you meant when you said 'many decades'.

If you don't know what you meant, why did you make the statement in the first place?

For you to [actually] avoid answering this simple question does not reflect well on you.

Please don't play games - and, just answer the question. Otherwise, I will have to assume that you do not have the stability and certainty of knowing what you believe on the subject and will disregard your contribution to this thread...
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Oh, my.
It isn't a matter of belief. It is a matter of historic fact.

I'll let you believe what you wish about me. Your tone doesn't example cordiality.
 
GaryA

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
#23
Aug 10, 2019
9,881
4,344
113
mywebsite.us
#23
Papermonkey said:
Oh, my.
It isn't a matter of belief. It is a matter of historic fact.

I'll let you believe what you wish about me. Your tone doesn't example cordiality.
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I am very cordial when people do not play games with me.

Let history show that you are too afraid to expound a simple little detail concerning a statement that you boldly made that you are not willing to further explain even the smallest detail of.

Are you willing to expound any detail at all concerning your "matter of historic fact" statement above? (probably not)

Did you copy that list you posted from somewhere?

You need to stop digging and throw the shovel away... ;)
 
HealthAndHappiness

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
#24
Jul 7, 2022
10,602
4,522
113
Almost Heaven West Virginia
#24
ServantoftheMostHigh said:
I've heard other sincere believers say that since Jesus kept the Laws of Moses we should keep them or at least try and somehow that is following Him. Is this what Jesus was talking about in these passages?



Mathew 5:17-20 Jesus said, Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. No , I have not come to destroy them , but to fulfil them... whoever breaks the least of these commandment , and teaches men so, he will be called the least in the kingdom....

Mathew 5 verse 20 For I(JESUS) say to you, unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 17, Jesus said we're teach and do the law of Moses to be great in the kingdom and in verse 20 Jesus said unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the Law you'll in no case enter the kingdom of heaven.
Are we to do both, keep the Law of Moses like Jesus, and keep Jesus words in red . Would that be exceeding the scribes and pharisees rightousness?
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First you have to look at this group and ask exactly Who it was who's righteousness exceeded that of the scribes and the Pharisees.
Once you determine that, you should seek His righteousness.
 
P

Papermonkey

Active member
#25
Dec 2, 2022
724
257
43
#25
TMS said:
Some say they ALL apply so that they can say that non apply, and Some say 9 apply, some say only the 2 love priciples apply.

The word "Law" is what most dissagrements are over. What the law means.

i could go through them all but,.... the Law Of God,.... The Law of the Lord,.... The Law Of Moses,.... the law of Liberty,... the law of commandments contained in ordinances; Are just a few.

God is a resonable God and a God of Order. Sin is the enemy and SIN is the transgression of the law. But which law?

The law of love is what all other laws and principles hang on.

Gen 13 tells us that "the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord." Since sin is violating God's law, the people of Sodom could not have been punished for being wicked and sinful if no law condemned what they were doing. We must conclude, therefore, that God had already made available the knowledge of what is sinful.
Gen 20:3-9 and 39:7-9 describe adultery as "a great sin" and a "sin against God." Adultery breaks the Seventh Commandment.
In Gen 3:6-17, God punishes Adam and Eve for their coveting and stealing—breaking the Tenth and Eighth Commandments. They also dishonored Him as their parent, violating the Fifth Commandment.
In Gen 4:9-12, God punishes Cain for murder and lying—violations of the Sixth and Ninth Commandments.

Do you think God has changed what sin is?
Do you think God wants us to keep the law today?

Which law is Paul talking about in Romans 3:31?
Click to expand...
The law of righteousness.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#26
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#26
Papermonkey said:
Jesus didn't come to abolish the law. That's key I think. He came to fulfill the law. In other words, he kept the law perfectly.
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When something is fulfilled it is abolished for all intents and purposes. And that is exactly what happened to the Law of Moses: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: (2 Cor 3:13)
 
Artios1

Artios1

Born again to serve
#27
Dec 11, 2020
678
420
63
#27
GaryA said:
Please explain more specifically your use of the phrase "historical and internal evidence" - and, particularly, what 'internal' is referring to...?
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I am not an historian, my field of biblical research lies elsewhere. But in my research, I have read several documents regarding the writings of the Word of God. There are, as I stated, many historical documentations regarding the writings dating as far back as the first and second century regarding the New Testament …. On some epistles there is a plus or minis range of 3-5 years…. depending on some specifics …. “inclusion”.

Inclusion is basically using linguistics, events, and a few other things (can’t remember off hand) that are included within the epistles to help develop a more accurate timeline.

To me the gospels would be more difficult using inclusion than the epistles would for dating …I may have read about it, but it’s been a while and like I stated …not my field.
 
P

Papermonkey

Active member
#28
Dec 2, 2022
724
257
43
#28
Nehemiah6 said:
When something is fulfilled it is abolished for all intents and purposes. And that is exactly what happened to the Law of Moses: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: (2 Cor 3:13)
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In this instance that is incorrect and would contradict what Jesus stated in Matthew 5:17 when he stated he did not come to abolish the law.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#29
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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113
#29
Papermonkey said:
In this instance that is incorrect and would contradict what Jesus stated in Matthew 5:17 when he stated he did not come to abolish the law.
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The Bible does not contradict itself. Christ said that He came to fulfil the Law. After it was fulfilled by Him it was also abolished by Him. But not before. Since Scripture itslef uses the word "abolished" that is the end if the story.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#30
Sep 23, 2014
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#30
Jesus kept the law to an above and beyond degree. No other than He neither could, can, nor will do this, until His return....er no, not even then because, even then, no one can die for the sins of the world at that point even though being made righteous, it is after that death is destroyed.... anyway, I think 1Corinthians 11:26 tells us what the essential thing that we "keep" is.
-For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#31
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
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#31
Nehemiah6 said:
The Bible does not contradict itself. Christ said that He came to fulfil the Law. After it was fulfilled by Him it was also abolished by Him. But not before. Since Scripture itslef uses the word "abolished" that is the end if the story.
Click to expand...
Actually, I see that Jesus fulfilled the law in that, as He is both God and Man, He also received all "fulfillments" of the Law, death, because He laid upon Him our sins, and eternal life because He is righteous. And so we, both, die in Him as well as gain eternal life, now the promise as it is so and then, indeed, when we are raised again.

That is, our death is the law fulfilled in Him, and His resurrection is our righteousness fulfilled in us...if I'm not mixing the grammar of my idea up too much. :p
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#32
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#32
Mem said:
Actually, I see that Jesus fulfilled the law in that, as He is both God and Man, He also received all "fulfillments" of the Law, death, because He laid upon Him our sins, and eternal life because He is righteous.
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This is true in broad general terms. But every animal sacrifice in the OT represented Christ, and after He was crucified "there is no more sacrifice for sins". Therefore the entire sacrificial system of the Law of Moses was set aside, including the Levitical priesthood, all the feasts, festivals, and holy days, etc. Eventually the temple was "abolished" in AD 70.

It is also critical to understand that "Christ our Passover [Lamb] was sacrificed for us". Jesus of Nazareth, the King of Jews, was crucified on the 14th of Nisan AD 30. That was the feast of Passover, and not a bone of His was broken. Almost all the feasts were fulfilled by Christ. So when the Bible says that the Law of Moses was abolished, that is true. The New Covenant went into effect the day Christ died. Therefore the veil in the temple was supernaturally torn from top to bottom. Fifty days after Passover, the Feast of Pentecost was also fulfilled.

Every Jew should have repented and been converted on that day of Pentecost. But that was not the case. Three thousand were saved on that day, and several thousands after that. But the nation of Israel went into exile because of general unbelief. Unbelieving Jews today continue to delude themselves that they are observing the Law of Moses, but that is not strictly true. And in any event that is unacceptable to God. He wants every Jew to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#33
Jun 30, 2015
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#33
Artios1 said:
…you are the one who doesn’t believe it … so show me your proof.
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That’s called a ‘burden of proof reversal’. The one who first makes a claim bears the responsibility for proving it. ;)
 
Seeker47

Seeker47

Well-known member
#34
Aug 7, 2018
1,140
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#34
Just a little clarification...

I believe "The Law" Jesus spoke about were the laws God gave visually, audibly and physically to all his people gathered below him. In thunder, earthquake and lightning he gave 10 laws that are inviolate. This must be the basis for all Christian faith.

Through Moses, God further clarified and refined what those laws meant and how his pagan, ignorant and unbelieving people were to understand and apply those laws. This was necessary for Him to teach and use His chosen people in order to accomplish His will.

At the right point in history YHWH sent his son to again refine and clarify His law, once again to accomplish His righteous will.

Are we required to follow a strict dietary regimen; or are we required to be willing to deny ourselves for His will? Are we required to sacrifice animal blood to obtain forgiveness or accept the efficacy of Yeshua's sacrifice? Are we required to kill other human beings who violate God's law, or are we now required to pray for their forgiveness.

I must be too simple because I just don't understand the controversy.

Sent with love and humble respect to everyone who has posted on this issue.
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#35
Sep 2, 2020
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#35
ServantoftheMostHigh said:
I've heard other sincere believers say that since Jesus kept the Laws of Moses we should keep them or at least try and somehow that is following Him. Is this what Jesus was talking about in these passages?



Mathew 5:17-20 Jesus said, Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. No , I have not come to destroy them , but to fulfil them... whoever breaks the least of these commandment , and teaches men so, he will be called the least in the kingdom....

Mathew 5 verse 20 For I(JESUS) say to you, unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 17, Jesus said we're teach and do the law of Moses to be great in the kingdom and in verse 20 Jesus said unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the Law you'll in no case enter the kingdom of heaven.
Are we to do both, keep the Law of Moses like Jesus, and keep Jesus words in red . Would that be exceeding the scribes and pharisees rightousness?
Click to expand...
Jesus said what he meant there after he rose

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is saying nothing can change until all is fulfilled then after he rose he explains

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,( Old Testament law and prophets was the only scripture at this point ) and said unto them,

Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

jesus was saying “ until the law and prophets are fulfilled nothing will change but I came to fulfill them “

one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil

a see Jesus wasn’t saying “ the le will
Never change or pass way “ he was saying “ until it’s fulfilled it won’t change but I have come to fulfill it “ then after he died and rose he explained everything that he had fulfilled it and sent them out with the gospel to the world

As far as is the law of Moses being Christian doctrine just look at acts chapter 15 when the apostles came together to decide the matter

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

…. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. ( four elements of Moses law )

forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; that ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-6, 10-11, 19-20, 24, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all Christian’s need to worry about is learning and following the gospel it’s a new and better covenant
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
#36
#36
Romans 5
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life. 19 For as through the one man’s(Adam) disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One(the Son) , many will be made righteous. 20 The law came in that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly, 21 that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Yeshua the Messiah our Adonai.

The Son was saved from death by His obedience to the law in giving His life to save us. He was being obedient to the commands to love His Father with all His heart, mind and soul and to love His neighbor as Himself. We could not save ourselves so He had to suffer death to save us. We are saved through faith in Him for forgiveness of sin, by grace.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
#37
#37
The commands to love His Father with all His heart, mind and soul and to love His neighbor as Himself are always righteous and just. we constantly fall short. He completely obeyed by offering His life on the cross to save us as the Father asked of Him. He was saved by His obedience to the law. We are saved by His obedience to the law by believing in Him. the law is holy and just and good and was life to the Son because of His obedience in giving His life to save us which the law required of Him. the law was His path to life as He tells us in the Psalms.
 
E

evyaniy

Guest
#38
#38
the promise of life in the law in Leviticus 18 was to One Man, the Son, Who was saved from death by His obedience to the law in offering HimSelf as a Sacrifice to save us.

4 You shall do My ordinances. You shall keep My statutes and walk in them. I am YHVH Your Elohim. 5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My ordinances, which if a Man does, He shall live by them. I am YHVH.

It is singular and a promise of life to the Man, Who is the Son, Who fully obeyed the law and fulfilled the sacrifices and feasts and ordinances and testimonies that pointed to Him.
 
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