Christ kept the Law of Moses, so....

[ServantoftheMostHigh]

I've heard other sincere believers say that since Jesus kept the Laws of Moses we should keep them or at least try and somehow that is following Him. Is this what Jesus was talking about in these passages?



Mathew 5:17-20 Jesus said, Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. No , I have not come to destroy them , but to fulfil them... whoever breaks the least of these commandment , and teaches men so, he will be called the least in the kingdom....

Mathew 5 verse 20 For I(JESUS) say to you, unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 17, Jesus said we're teach and do the law of Moses to be great in the kingdom and in verse 20 Jesus said unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the Law you'll in no case enter the kingdom of heaven.
Are we to do both, keep the Law of Moses like Jesus, and keep Jesus words in red . Would that be exceeding the scribes and pharisees rightousness?

 

[Artios1]

Sincerity is no guarantee for Truth.

There are some who like to put themselves under the law for the feeling of self-righteousness…our righteousness was made unto us through Christ

The gospels (the law), was written for Israel …

Romans 1-8 is a doctrinal epistle written directly to us… the Church of God, and goes through what was made unto us by Jesus Christ.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I've heard other sincere believers say that since Jesus kept the Laws of Moses we should keep them or at least try and somehow that is following Him.

Jesus of Nazareth was STRICTLY under the Law of Moses. Then He NULLIFIED it at the cross. The New Covenant went into effect the day Christ died. End of story.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The Law brought the awareness of sin. Sin was crucified on the cross with Him and that put an end to the Law. Christ rose from the dead. Now we follow Him in Spirit and Truth.

 

[Papermonkey]

I've heard other sincere believers say that since Jesus kept the Laws of Moses we should keep them or at least try and somehow that is following Him. Is this what Jesus was talking about in these passages?



Mathew 5:17-20 Jesus said, Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. No , I have not come to destroy them , but to fulfil them... whoever breaks the least of these commandment , and teaches men so, he will be called the least in the kingdom....

Mathew 5 verse 20 For I(JESUS) say to you, unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 17, Jesus said we're teach and do the law of Moses to be great in the kingdom and in verse 20 Jesus said unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the Law you'll in no case enter the kingdom of heaven.
Are we to do both, keep the Law of Moses like Jesus, and keep Jesus words in red . Would that be exceeding the scribes and pharisees rightousness?

There are seeming contradictions all through scripture.

However, I think it helpful to remember scribes were not in Jesus' company as he walked in ancient Palestine.

The New Testament books were written many decades after Jesus. His ministry spread by word of mouth after he departed this world.

In the New Testament you'll note he did reiterate 9 of the 10 commandments. Being Sabbath was made for us as he knew there was no need to reiterate that.

Jesus didn't come to abolish the law. That's key I think.

He came to fulfill the law. In other words, he kept the law perfectly.

The 9 commandments Jesus reiterated were encompassed by the two he also described. Love God with all your heart and mind, and your neighbor as your self. Upon those two commands hang all the laws and the prophets.

The 10 commandments especially reflected those two loves.

Some day the 10 no longer apply. That is not true. God wrote his laws in our hearts so we're not far from them.

Imagine, thou shalt not murder no longer applied. Though shalt not steal.

No. They matter. And are relevant today. Because Christians don't steal, or murder.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello @ServantoftheMostHigh, first and foremost, we cannot keep the Law of Moses "like Jesus did". If such a thing was/is possible, then neither the Incarnation nor the Cross would have happened (because they would not have been needed).

I like how theologian Dr. Leon Morris puts it (in one of his commentaries). Here is an excerpt concerning v20 from that commentary concerning this matter.

Matthew 5
20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

​

20. "For" links the following on and is possibly explanatory, “for, as you see.” I tell you puts some emphasis on the surprising statement that follows: Jesus calls for his followers to have a "righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees". ​

​

He is surely using the term righteousness in a sense different from that which the scribes and Pharisees attached to it. They looked for strict legal correctness, whereas Jesus looked for love. They stressed the keeping of the law, and from the standpoint of the lawkeeper it is not easy to see how anyone could exceed their righteousness. Along the lines of lawkeeping who could possibly exceed the righteousness of those who tithed mint, dill, and cummin (Matthew 23:23)? ​

​

But Jesus has already spoken of a different kind of righteousness (Matthew 3:15), and it is central to the Christian gospel that Jesus would fulfil all that Scripture means in making a new way, a way in which he would bring those who believe in Him to salvation. This does not mean cheap grace, for the words of this verse bring out the truth that those who have been touched by Jesus live on a new plane, a plane in which the keeping of God’s commandments is important. ​

​

Their righteousness is a given righteousness. ​

​

Nowhere do we get the idea that the servant of God achieves in his own strength the kind of living that gives him right standing before God. But when he is given that standing, Jesus looks to him to live in accordance with that standing. ​

​

Later in this sermon Jesus will emphasize the spirit rather than the letter of the law. The Pharisees put a tremendous emphasis on the letter of the law, but Jesus was looking for something very different from the Pharisaic standard. For them it was a matter of observing regulations (and softening them where possible), but for Him it was keeping the commandments in depth; He taught a radical obedience.​

​

~Morris, L. (1992). The Gospel according to Matthew (pp. 110–111). W.B. Eerdmans; Inter-Varsity Press.​

I remember reading about a popular 1st Century rabbinic teaching concerning the "keeping" of Torah. Since every (honest) Jew back then realized that keeping/obeying the Law perfectly (or even close to perfectly) was impossible, the idea was put forth that if a person could obey just ~one~ of the 613 Laws perfectly, from adulthood to the grave, God would be ok with that.

James 2:10-11 is just one of the verses/passages that explains why that rabbinic belief/teaching could not be true, so the Father sent the Lord Jesus here to live a perfectly righteous life before Him on our behalf (the life that we were supposed to live before Him, but could not), and then to die on the Cross in our stead to atone for/save us from both the power of our sins (in this life) and from the penalty of our sins and His wrath in the age to come.

Therefore, Jesus is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement and satisfaction for our sins and His wrath.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

GOD BLESS YOU!!

~Deuteronomy

2 Corinthians 5​

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

​

 

[GaryA]

Jesus was under the Law of Moses in that He was born a Jew and had not yet died on the cross. At the same time, He exercised His perfect right to "bend"/"override" some of those laws in certain situations. (like healing people on the Sabbath)

The ministry of Jesus was an "overlap" of OT and NT 'law' - He "followed" both (at the same time) in proper respect of/to the Father.

 

[notonmywatch]

The New Testament books were written many decades after Jesus.

That's not true.

 

[oyster67]

I've heard other sincere believers say that since Jesus kept the Laws of Moses...

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. His fulfillment of the Old Law changed it to the New Law. The Old Law is still good as a teacher, but we are no longer under bondage to it.

Jesus Himself stated it best...

Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Artios1]

That's not true.

Don't mean to cut in ....but how can you refute that statement by Papermonkey → "The New Testament books were written many decades after Jesus."

Both the gospels and Acts - Revelation were given by revelation of/from Jesus Christ anywhere from 2-6 decades after Christ was taken up.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Much of the law was type and shadow of Christ, that Jesus fulfilled. The moral law as it is called still defines what sin is amd how we should love our neighbor. We however dont stone people for sin anymore because Jesus lead by example and did not allow the stoning of the adultress. Also we are not a worldly nation We are a diaspora living with in the nations of the world. So we suffer the indignation of the perversions of the nations.

 

[notonmywatch]

Don't mean to cut in ....but how can you refute that statement by Papermonkey → "The New Testament books were written many decades after Jesus."

Both the gospels and Acts - Revelation were given by revelation of/from Jesus Christ anywhere from 2-6 decades after Christ was taken up.

First of all, "many" isn't 2.

Second of all, neither you nor Papermonkey have substantiated your claims. You need to prove it. Can you?

 

[Artios1]

First of all, "many" isn't 2.

Second of all, neither you nor Papermonkey have substantiated your claims. You need to prove it. Can you?

I have no problem with the historical and internal evidence on dating …. so it’s not my argument to dispute …you are the one who doesn’t believe it … so show me your proof.

 

[GaryA]

Please explain more specifically your use of the phrase "historical and internal evidence" - and, particularly, what 'internal' is referring to...?

 

[TMS]

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Love for God is what the first 4 commandments are hanging from.
Loving thy neighbour is what the last 6 commandments are hanging from

So why not keep all 10?

the flesh doesn't want to and the flesh will fail at keeping any spiritual law.
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:3, 4.
The word for righteousness is "dikaima," meaning "just requirement" of the law.

By faith in Jesus we can have victory, Both Justification and sanctification

 

[Papermonkey]

That's not true.

It is true.

 

[Papermonkey]

There are seeming contradictions all through scripture.

However, I think it helpful to remember scribes were not in Jesus' company as he walked in ancient Palestine.

The New Testament books were written many decades after Jesus. His ministry spread by word of mouth after he departed this world.

In the New Testament you'll note he did reiterate 9 of the 10 commandments. Being Sabbath was made for us as he knew there was no need to reiterate that.

Jesus didn't come to abolish the law. That's key I think.

He came to fulfill the law. In other words, he kept the law perfectly.

The 9 commandments Jesus reiterated were encompassed by the two he also described. Love God with all your heart and mind, and your neighbor as your self. Upon those two commands hang all the laws and the prophets.

The 10 commandments especially reflected those two loves.

Some say the 10 no longer apply. That is not true. God wrote his laws in our hearts so we're not far from them.

Imagine, thou shalt not murder no longer applied. Thou shalt not steal.

No. They matter. And are relevant today. Because Christians don't steal, or murder.

Now I can fix those typos. 🙃😆
One day my auto correct will correct when I'm right there. Not after I moved on. And one day it will learn Biblical phrases like thou . But not not today.😜

 

[GaryA]

The New Testament books were written many decades after Jesus.

Both the gospels and Acts - Revelation were given by revelation of/from Jesus Christ anywhere from 2-6 decades after Christ was taken up.

@Papermonkey - what MIN-MAX range of time do you suggest - how many decades is 'many' decades as used in this statement by you?

 

[Papermonkey]

@Papermonkey - what MIN-MAX range of time do you suggest - how many decades is 'many' decades as used in this statement by you?

Rather than ask that of me, why not invest your time in seeking the answer yourself?

In my view another beneficial search for students of the Bible is the chronology of the books of the Bible. Both Old and New Testaments.

 

[GaryA]

Rather than ask that of me, why not invest your time in seeking the answer yourself?

I know what I believe. (I have already made that effort.)

I am asking it of you because you are the one who made the statement.

I am simply asking you to further explain the answer from your original statement as to what range of time you meant when you said 'many decades'.

If you don't know what you meant, why did you make the statement in the first place?

For you to [actually] avoid answering this simple question does not reflect well on you.

Please don't play games - and, just answer the question. Otherwise, I will have to assume that you do not have the stability and certainty of knowing what you believe on the subject and will disregard your contribution to this thread...