Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
- Thread starter ronair
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Whatever Grizzly Adams, you won't be here long. Not gonna waste more breath. We've seen your kind come and go.
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Sounds like you both are talking past each other. While the Christian's focus must always be on righteousness, it is also evident that believers can and do sin and must deal with present sins (not choose to sin habitually which would mean that they are not even saved). However, when the focus is on spiritual gifts, then it deflects from the matter at hand. Spiritual gifts should simply be exercised without fanfare. But tongues are undoubtedly disruptive and cause divisions. And modern tongues are not even biblical tongues.
God giving us opportunities to work that enable us to make money seems to be one of the main means or provision, at least in a modern cash economy. But it seems like God may also provide through gifts when there is a need and one has been doing a lot of ministry work for free, not asking anything in return from man or when people work hard and are compensated little for their work and pray for help.
Your example is prejudice. Your judgement is in error.
I live in the western world, and I most certainly believe that the pagan supernatural is real, but I also know that it is from the demonic. Knowing this I don't seek for "christian" miracles because I know they can also be from the demonic.
You assume wrongly. If people are willing to place their faith in false pagan miracles then they will also be willing to place their faith in false christian miracles too.
Bottom Line: I don't need those miracles that you advocate for to believe in God.
Why should I place my faith in something I don't need?
I live in the western world, and I most certainly believe that the pagan supernatural is real, but I also know that it is from the demonic. Knowing this I don't seek for "christian" miracles because I know they can also be from the demonic.
You assume wrongly. If people are willing to place their faith in false pagan miracles then they will also be willing to place their faith in false christian miracles too.
Bottom Line: I don't need those miracles that you advocate for to believe in God.
Why should I place my faith in something I don't need?
Couldn't such miracles have been demonic in the first century? Do you think the apostles were wrong to pray to God to do signs and wonders? Why did miracles occur after their prayer?
Who is saying that someone needs to have miracles to believe in God? If you do not need them to believe in God, does that mean that the body of Christ does not need them? You seem to hold to a strange false dichotomy, the idea that we either need to have miracles so that we can believe in God or else we do not need them at all. This type of thinking does not line up with scripture.
In i Corinthians 12, Paul mentions different kinds of spiritual gifts, describing different individuals with different gifts as members of the body of Christ. One part of our body does not say to another part, "I have no need of thee." The implication is that we should not say this to one another. You should not say to those gifted to work miracles, "I have no need of thee."
If you can believe in God without seeing a miracle, that is a good thing, of course, but that does not mean that you do not need the grace of God manifested through the gift of the working of miracles or the members of the body of Christ who exercise those gifts.
Who is saying that someone needs to have miracles to believe in God? If you do not need them to believe in God, does that mean that the body of Christ does not need them? You seem to hold to a strange false dichotomy, the idea that we either need to have miracles so that we can believe in God or else we do not need them at all. This type of thinking does not line up with scripture.
In i Corinthians 12, Paul mentions different kinds of spiritual gifts, describing different individuals with different gifts as members of the body of Christ. One part of our body does not say to another part, "I have no need of thee." The implication is that we should not say this to one another. You should not say to those gifted to work miracles, "I have no need of thee."
If you can believe in God without seeing a miracle, that is a good thing, of course, but that does not mean that you do not need the grace of God manifested through the gift of the working of miracles or the members of the body of Christ who exercise those gifts.
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Spiritual gifts are not the cause of divisions. People who cause divisions oppose Biblical teaching or do not live it out in their lives and express it in their attitudes. Disorderly use of tongues can be disruptive and may lead to division, but so can rejecting Biblical teaching in favor of spiritual gifts.
Rejecting Biblical teaching on spiritual gifts is not an appropriate solution to this issue.
Rejecting Biblical teaching on spiritual gifts is not an appropriate solution to this issue.
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As I recall, I posted several posts pointing out the problem with your reasoning, and the fact that you are trying to interpret how the Bible fits with your theory, rather than showing something that the apostles actually taught.
If you say someone got sick, therefore the apostles stopped being able to heal, that is not the same as the Bible actually teaching that apostles lost their gift over time, or that healing through supernatural means is not available today. I also pointed out that Paul had an infirmity early in his ministry, and healed all that came to him on an island late in his ministry that is shown in Acts. If evidence of sickness is proof that healing ceased, then Paul was unable to heal after that, and the later healings in the Bible would not be true.
The problem with your theory is that it is not actual apostolic teaching. You cannot show where the apostles actually taught your theory. You are trying a 'goodness of fit' approach, to borrow a term from statistics...using cherry picked data points and excluding data points that do not fit.
If you say someone got sick, therefore the apostles stopped being able to heal, that is not the same as the Bible actually teaching that apostles lost their gift over time, or that healing through supernatural means is not available today. I also pointed out that Paul had an infirmity early in his ministry, and healed all that came to him on an island late in his ministry that is shown in Acts. If evidence of sickness is proof that healing ceased, then Paul was unable to heal after that, and the later healings in the Bible would not be true.
The problem with your theory is that it is not actual apostolic teaching. You cannot show where the apostles actually taught your theory. You are trying a 'goodness of fit' approach, to borrow a term from statistics...using cherry picked data points and excluding data points that do not fit.
Who said we should place our faith in miracles? Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
It all depends on one's definition of "miracles".
The New Birth is a miracle.
Answered prayer is a miracle.
Being able to understand and believe the Gospel is a miracle.
Being healed of a terminal disease is a miracle.
If you say you don't need miracles, then you probably won't need these ones either.
It all depends on one's definition of "miracles".
The New Birth is a miracle.
Answered prayer is a miracle.
Being able to understand and believe the Gospel is a miracle.
Being healed of a terminal disease is a miracle.
If you say you don't need miracles, then you probably won't need these ones either.
The problem is not that cessationism deny
that God is working still with miracles and healings for his gloryfication.
The problem is that since Topeka and Azuza a New teaching arose among Christians which claims that the spiritual gifts (tongues, prophecie, healings) are today the same as in the time of the apostles.
New is, that speaking in tongues is the visible sign, that somebody is baptised with the Holy Spirit. This teaching was not in the churchhistory, nor in the NT taught. Out from Acts 2,8,10 and 19 which can seen as sign for the jews an doctrine was createt which never was taught to the Christians. No Single Letter to the churches mentioned this teaching.
And the fact, that today pentecostals and charismatics cant show that healings and prophecie are in the same quality like in the Apostles time reveals that there is something wrong.
Not only this, if someone has not the gift of speaking in tongues something must be wrong with him, because it is taught that this gift should be for every believer, who wants it.
And if someone is not be healed, then the reason is for shure his sin ore lack of faith,
this causes many suffering among belivers and brings them under pressure.
Because of this false teaching I am against it.
I am not against healing ore miracles ore prophecie as it was in the days of the apostle.
that God is working still with miracles and healings for his gloryfication.
The problem is that since Topeka and Azuza a New teaching arose among Christians which claims that the spiritual gifts (tongues, prophecie, healings) are today the same as in the time of the apostles.
New is, that speaking in tongues is the visible sign, that somebody is baptised with the Holy Spirit. This teaching was not in the churchhistory, nor in the NT taught. Out from Acts 2,8,10 and 19 which can seen as sign for the jews an doctrine was createt which never was taught to the Christians. No Single Letter to the churches mentioned this teaching.
And the fact, that today pentecostals and charismatics cant show that healings and prophecie are in the same quality like in the Apostles time reveals that there is something wrong.
Not only this, if someone has not the gift of speaking in tongues something must be wrong with him, because it is taught that this gift should be for every believer, who wants it.
And if someone is not be healed, then the reason is for shure his sin ore lack of faith,
this causes many suffering among belivers and brings them under pressure.
Because of this false teaching I am against it.
I am not against healing ore miracles ore prophecie as it was in the days of the apostle.
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When it comes to healing, I certainly wish all of these Pentecostal churches start not with their favorite Isaiah passage "By his stripes we are healed", but rather start with Romans 8:18-25.
I always remind them that the apostle Paul never even taught the Body of Christ to utter the Isa passage.
Rather he taught us to view all our sicknesses as light afflictions (2 Corinthians 4:17) and not worth comparing to the glorified body that we are putting our hope in (Romans 8:18).
I always remind them that the apostle Paul never even taught the Body of Christ to utter the Isa passage.
Rather he taught us to view all our sicknesses as light afflictions (2 Corinthians 4:17) and not worth comparing to the glorified body that we are putting our hope in (Romans 8:18).
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Have you ever walked by an occult type store or such and felt/heard the high pitched buzz of the lord of the flies? That is what i get from you continuationests here, downright evil comes through the lines from you guys, scary really (and you will try to twist that into your being on the right side of judgement), i see why you own your own bit of darkness here, your father of this time has given it to you. Your end is going to be so tragic and deserved if you do not turn from your false religions now.....
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Hmm.... That sounds downright mystical. Are you claiming some kind of supernatural experience causes you to not believe what continuationists teach? Do you think it is evil because you get some kind of supernatural feeling or sense, or actually hear flies buzzing? You should be careful about this because the lord of the flies is a deceiver.
You haven't given us one bit of evidence that the parts of the Bible you don't accept as applicable today, like I Corinthians 12, are not for us today.
Again, the issue is you would have us believe some parts of the New Testament are no longer true us and do not apply to the church.
You haven't given us one bit of evidence that the parts of the Bible you don't accept as applicable today, like I Corinthians 12, are not for us today.
Again, the issue is you would have us believe some parts of the New Testament are no longer true us and do not apply to the church.