Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot
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He will set us free in whatever ways He Can set us Free at any given moment in Time. He knows each of us and is Always Working. 
JOHN 5:17
AMP
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now [He has never ceased working], and I too am working.”
AMPC
But Jesus answered them, My Father has worked [even] until now, [He has never ceased working; He is still working] and I, too, must be at [divine] work.
BRG
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
CSB
Jesus responded to them, “My Father is still working, and I am working also.”
CEB
Jesus replied, “My Father is still working, and I am working too.”
CJB
But he answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I too am working.”
CEV
But Jesus said, “My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working.”
DARBY
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto and I work.
DLNT
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working”.
DRA
But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work.
ERV
But he said to them, “My Father never stops working, and so I work too.”
EHV
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working right up to the present time, and I am working too.”
ESV
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
ESVUK
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
EXB
But Jesus ·said to [L answered] them, “My Father ·never stops [is always; is still] working [C even on the Sabbath], and so I keep working, too.”
GNV
But Jesus answered them, My father worketh hitherto, and I work.
GW
Jesus replied to them, “My Father is working right now, and so am I.”
GNT
Jesus answered them, “My Father is always working, and I too must work.”
HCSB
But Jesus responded to them, “My Father is still working, and I am working also.”
ICB
But Jesus said to them, “My Father never stops working. And so I work, too.”
ISV
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I, too, am working.”
PHILLIPS
It was because Jesus did such things on the Sabbath day that the Jews persecuted him. But Jesus’ answer to them was this, “My Father is still at work and therefore I work as well.”
JUB
¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
KJV
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
AKJV
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
LEB
But he answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
TLB
But Jesus replied, “My Father constantly does good, and I’m following his example.”
MSG
But Jesus defended himself. “My Father is working straight through, even on the Sabbath. So am I.”
MEV
Jesus answered them, “My Father is working still, and I am working.”
MOUNCE
But Jesus answered them, · “My Father has been working until now, and I also am working.”
NOG
Yeshua replied to them, “My Father is working right now, and so am I.”
JOHN 5:17
AMP
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now [He has never ceased working], and I too am working.”
AMPC
But Jesus answered them, My Father has worked [even] until now, [He has never ceased working; He is still working] and I, too, must be at [divine] work.
BRG
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
CSB
Jesus responded to them, “My Father is still working, and I am working also.”
CEB
Jesus replied, “My Father is still working, and I am working too.”
CJB
But he answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I too am working.”
CEV
But Jesus said, “My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working.”
DARBY
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto and I work.
DLNT
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working”.
DRA
But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work.
ERV
But he said to them, “My Father never stops working, and so I work too.”
EHV
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working right up to the present time, and I am working too.”
ESV
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
ESVUK
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
EXB
But Jesus ·said to [L answered] them, “My Father ·never stops [is always; is still] working [C even on the Sabbath], and so I keep working, too.”
GNV
But Jesus answered them, My father worketh hitherto, and I work.
GW
Jesus replied to them, “My Father is working right now, and so am I.”
GNT
Jesus answered them, “My Father is always working, and I too must work.”
HCSB
But Jesus responded to them, “My Father is still working, and I am working also.”
ICB
But Jesus said to them, “My Father never stops working. And so I work, too.”
ISV
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I, too, am working.”
PHILLIPS
It was because Jesus did such things on the Sabbath day that the Jews persecuted him. But Jesus’ answer to them was this, “My Father is still at work and therefore I work as well.”
JUB
¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
KJV
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
AKJV
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
LEB
But he answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
TLB
But Jesus replied, “My Father constantly does good, and I’m following his example.”
MSG
But Jesus defended himself. “My Father is working straight through, even on the Sabbath. So am I.”
MEV
Jesus answered them, “My Father is working still, and I am working.”
MOUNCE
But Jesus answered them, · “My Father has been working until now, and I also am working.”
NOG
Yeshua replied to them, “My Father is working right now, and so am I.”
when we believe in him.
until then, we are dead in our sin
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18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Romans 5:18
Does that mean that judgement came only upon the elect men?
Upon some men from all places of the world?
No judgement has come upon “every man” that has ever lived!
Either Jesus died for everyone or not everyone is not under judgement.
You agree with the first part and deny the second.
Romans 5:18
Does that mean that judgement came only upon the elect men?
Upon some men from all places of the world?
No judgement has come upon “every man” that has ever lived!
Either Jesus died for everyone or not everyone is not under judgement.
You agree with the first part and deny the second.
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Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. I Peter 4:8
We can extend forgiveness even when dealing with a person who refuses to see their sin or the fact they offend many. The love of God through Christ covers our sins and we are supposed to forgive as God, in Christ, first forgave us.
Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:32
This does not mean do not judge false doctrine and do not judge false teachers/prophets. However, you cannot do that until you have equated truth with sound reasoning and judgement provided by scripture. Apparently, God thinks love goes a long way even through the believer and exemplifies His forgiveness even on this earth through believers.
I tried to show this some posts back, not posting to anyone in particular and I am not posting to anyone in particular now.
I don't think Calvinism is salvation personified. No. That, belongs to Christ alone. The reason that the debate on Calvinism vs the Arminius view has gone on for literally centuries, is because people emphasize one view over another while pointing to scripture.
I have settled the question for myself and I pray others do as well but keeping in mind that insults settle nothing and mocking is not a fruit, at least not a good one. Actually, fruit can be good or bad.
We can extend forgiveness even when dealing with a person who refuses to see their sin or the fact they offend many. The love of God through Christ covers our sins and we are supposed to forgive as God, in Christ, first forgave us.
Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:32
This does not mean do not judge false doctrine and do not judge false teachers/prophets. However, you cannot do that until you have equated truth with sound reasoning and judgement provided by scripture. Apparently, God thinks love goes a long way even through the believer and exemplifies His forgiveness even on this earth through believers.
I tried to show this some posts back, not posting to anyone in particular and I am not posting to anyone in particular now.
I don't think Calvinism is salvation personified. No. That, belongs to Christ alone. The reason that the debate on Calvinism vs the Arminius view has gone on for literally centuries, is because people emphasize one view over another while pointing to scripture.
I have settled the question for myself and I pray others do as well but keeping in mind that insults settle nothing and mocking is not a fruit, at least not a good one. Actually, fruit can be good or bad.
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Eternal fire was created for the devil and his angels. If man ends up there, he went to a place never intended for him.
The lake of fire is the second death. It is appointed unto man once to die. If a man goes to the lake of fire, it was not appointed by God. It was man’s choice not God.
The lake of fire is the second death. It is appointed unto man once to die. If a man goes to the lake of fire, it was not appointed by God. It was man’s choice not God.
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I don't share your beliefs on this subject on all points, though I am equally sincere in understanding the subject in light of what I see God's Word to say about it. But the important thing above all is that you and are are sincerely saved and remain diligent and in serving Him in this life. There is nothing so important as making sure one ends up in heaven. This is the central theme in the Bible, that no one can afford to not know and comply with - with all the heart, soul and mind.
Yes, loving God and one's neighbor as oneself, is of top importance, Jesus said! And there are many church denominations. But as long as a Christian has a true relationship with God, and has surrendered their lives to the lordship of God - the most important thing is taken care of - that of their being able to end up in heaven to live with God eternally. There's nothing so important as that!
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No I was saved without making the "my choice", you keep advocating so hard always, which is just weird to me that you have to have some kind of hand in your own salvation, "your choice", giving God "less" glory for it.
When I did it your way, the way you've been describing in this thread, when I heard the gospel, then I went up front, I repeated the prayer, then was declared saved and even baptized for good measure, and guess what? Wasn't saved, was not saved at all and did not know Him. Then after hardship fell and I thought I knew "Christianity" was, and it was doing NOTHING to help, because I was sold a false gospel that sounded a lot like what you're selling here and I rejected it because it had no power to change me in any way then, and definitely had no power to help me now.
THEN..... after doing it the "American Salvation Tradition", finding it lacking, and rejecting it because I found it powerless and pointless. I hit my knees alone without anyone telling me a thing. Guess what? I didn't even cry out "God" or "Jesus", I cried out "I can't do this anymore", I came to the end of my way and without even knowing what was happening God drew me in and granted me repentance right then and there. There is no way you can try to make my testimony fit the strict guidelines your trying to fit it in, nor can you, and more importantly for this discussion, can you say a decision came into play at all. This "free will" you champion is deceptive in ways, and I don't mean you're deceptive at all, but the bible tells us we are slaves. Never does it say we are free. It does also say we have choice and agency no doubt. Understand I don't believe we are robots at all, and the bible clearly teaches we have a choice. Again I have no clue how our will works within Gods sovereignty, but I do know we don't get to claim our salvation for our self, least we boast right? Does God not get all glory? Right?
When I did it your way, the way you've been describing in this thread, when I heard the gospel, then I went up front, I repeated the prayer, then was declared saved and even baptized for good measure, and guess what? Wasn't saved, was not saved at all and did not know Him. Then after hardship fell and I thought I knew "Christianity" was, and it was doing NOTHING to help, because I was sold a false gospel that sounded a lot like what you're selling here and I rejected it because it had no power to change me in any way then, and definitely had no power to help me now.
THEN..... after doing it the "American Salvation Tradition", finding it lacking, and rejecting it because I found it powerless and pointless. I hit my knees alone without anyone telling me a thing. Guess what? I didn't even cry out "God" or "Jesus", I cried out "I can't do this anymore", I came to the end of my way and without even knowing what was happening God drew me in and granted me repentance right then and there. There is no way you can try to make my testimony fit the strict guidelines your trying to fit it in, nor can you, and more importantly for this discussion, can you say a decision came into play at all. This "free will" you champion is deceptive in ways, and I don't mean you're deceptive at all, but the bible tells us we are slaves. Never does it say we are free. It does also say we have choice and agency no doubt. Understand I don't believe we are robots at all, and the bible clearly teaches we have a choice. Again I have no clue how our will works within Gods sovereignty, but I do know we don't get to claim our salvation for our self, least we boast right? Does God not get all glory? Right?
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I agree with this.
However, Calvinists teach that God specifically created some for eternal damnation. That might be the major stumbling point of Calvinism. James White, a well known Calvinist expositor and author, explains this view and calls it 'Unconditional Election a Necessity'. BUT he supplies this view NOT from scripture, but from the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. HUH?
He also quotes from a number of leading Calvinists, such as James P. Boyce. Again, not a biblical source.
The view expressed is that God deliberately creates human beings to join the devil and his angels in the lake of fire. Scripture states no such thing and in fact God declares the lake of fire was NOT created for humans, but sadly those who reject Him will find themselves in that place.
To really illustrate the delusion that God has taken delight in creating 'human logs' as it were, Boyce states that God choose to save only a few BECAUSE it pleases Him to do this.
BUT God says in His word that He takes NO DELIGHT IN THE WICKED PERISHING!
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:23
Study Calvinism before deciding this is the view you choose. You are the one choosing. And make no mistake. YOU are choosing.
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This is the root cause of the problem whenever you inserted the word 'choose' where the verse doesn't say. Specifically v. 13 says nothing of choosing rather we are "born not of blood" hence in reference to a physical act of men and women. The subject is being born and not being chosen. Big difference.
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Agreed. And to me, "Hey I was saved because I chose Him". Sounds just like a work to me. I'm not saying you said this or were suggesting it. This was just a personal opinion I was sharing out loud with you.
But I couldn't agree more, not only are we not saved by works, there is not a work possible in the flesh at all ever, even any remote possibility at all, in all of eternity that can save us. Like not even a possibility. Ever. For all time in all space. Ever. Foe Show!
There is NO"THING we can ever do, including making our own choice, that can save us. Only His grace.
But I couldn't agree more, not only are we not saved by works, there is not a work possible in the flesh at all ever, even any remote possibility at all, in all of eternity that can save us. Like not even a possibility. Ever. For all time in all space. Ever. Foe Show!
There is NO"THING we can ever do, including making our own choice, that can save us. Only His grace.
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Actually @Lightskin is the poster boy for being saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
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I think the matter of 'choice' is another aspect of disagreement in the big leagues. God states over and over again in scripture, CHOOSE and how can we ignore that?
However, salvation is not something you go out one day and say to yourself, yah know, today I am going to choose Jesus and then go skipping on your way.
First of all, how do you choose if you do not have something to choose from? I have read, in this forum, where a Calvinist wrote (I don't remember who and at this point it's a mute point anyway) that a person is regenerated so that they can choose salvation.
Of course no scripture can be provided to give proof of that statement. And then on the other hand you will be told the Holy Spirit cannot dwell with unregenerate human kind (well of course He does because who do we think is currently holding back the evil until God's time is fulfilled?) but then how does he regenerate before salvation. Strips the gears it does.
Obviously I am not a Calvinist, but I don't appreciate Calvinists mocking and laughing at those who believe we do have a choice. (you are not saying this or acting that way so no worries) Like I said, arguements are made from scripture for either view, but some things are just plain fabricated. Like the lake of fire for instance.
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