Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[garee]

You still did not answer. What does God not see that He needs to have faith for it?

If men do not beleive God (no faith) will it make the faith of God that comes from hearing God without effect? To effect something is to work it out. Or do we let God be true and every man a liar.

It would seem you are having Christ's faith in respect to your own self. That would mean you have blasphemed His name by which he calls us.

To blaspheme is to take the work accredited to one and give it to another . (like plagiarism )

 

[carl11]

Yes. In this context "His people" are the Jews. And while this was not fulfilled completely at His first coming, it will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ. Please note: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [Christ], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Rom 11:26).

Jn. 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

So in the context here we would have a contradiction.

 

[Musicus]

No I'm not missing the point I understand what you are conveying. Maybe the problem lies in how you are using the word all. Like I mentioned before and the more I read it over and over again how you and others are using this word I'm convinced that you are implying all. All, as in give me all of the marbles and not as give me all of the marbles "except" black. In other words it appears on one hand there are no conditions and then on the other hand there are conditions.

Basic logic, as long as we all agree on what all the words mean.
I want all the marbles.
Give me all the marbles.
But you give me only half the marbles.
I do not have all the marbles I wanted, though I do have all the marbles I have.
but that doesn't change the fact that I still wanted all the marbles.

God wants all people to be saved.
Some people won't be saved
but, God still wanted all people to be saved, even though they won't all be saved, because they all CAN be (or could have been) saved.

Why? because all have (or had) the choice to accept salvation or reject it.

God gave all of us the choice. God does not choose for us.
Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

Salvation is a gift given in grace, when we have the faith for it. Same faith as we can have in anything. Faith is faith is faith. We definitely can have faith in people and things before salvation from God. Even Atheists have faith in things, like faith that a rope will hold, or an airplane will fly, etc. It's all faith, different levels, yes, but still faith.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

God our faithful Creator does not need faith to work out what ?

God does not need faith at all.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

If men do not beleive God (no faith) will it make the faith of God that comes from hearing God without effect? To effect something is to work it out. Or do we let God be true and every man a liar.

It would seem you are having Christ's faith in respect to your own self. That would mean you have blasphemed His name by which he calls us.

To blaspheme is to take the work accredited to one and give it to another . (like plagiarism )

You still are refusing to answer the question. You can't answer it because you are full baloney.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

God does not force anyone to accept salvation to avoid damnation

I almost missed this and it is quoted from my post. would people please use the quote feature? unless of course you don't want to be clear who you are posting to?

I would agree at least no more that he forced you to be born the first time. The first creation( fleshly)

then what happens to 'I knew you in the womb?'

is that speculation on the part of God?

 

[shrume]

Jn. 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

So in the context here we would have a contradiction.

There is no contradiction. In this context, who were "his own"? The Jews. Did the Jews receive him? Most did not.

 

[carl11]

e saved
but, God still wanted all people to be saved, even though they won't all be saved, because they all CAN be (or could have been) saved.

Why? because all have (or had) the choice to accept salvation or reject it.

God gave all of us the choice. God does not choose for us.
Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

Salvation is a gift given in grace, when we have the faith for it. Same faith as we can have in anything. Faith is faith is faith. We definitely can have faith in people and things before salvation from God. Even Atheists have faith in things, like faith that a rope will hold, or an airplane will fly, etc. It's all faith, different levels, yes, but still faith.

 

[carl11]

God gave all of us the choice. God does not choose for us.
Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

Salvation is a gift given in grace, when we have the faith for it. Same faith as we can have in anything. Faith is faith is faith. We definitely can have faith in people and things before salvation from God. Even Atheists have faith in things, like faith that a rope will hold, or an airplane will fly, etc. It's all faith, different levels, yes, but still faith.

Jn. 15:9 tells us who does the choosing. Ah yes the famous Joshua 24:15, it says nothing of the sort of choosing God, but rather other gods.

 

[carl11]

There is no contradiction. In this context, who were "his own"? The Jews. Did the Jews receive him? Most did not.

His own would be all of those whom he has planned to save.

 

[shrume]

His own would be all of those whom he has planned to save.

"His own" in John 1:11 is the Jews.

God sent Jesus to save anyone who will freely choose to believe.

 

[shrume]

Jn. 15:9 tells us who does the choosing.

How so?

John 15:
9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Ah yes the famous Joshua 24:15, it says nothing of the sort of choosing God, but rather other gods.

Have you read verse 16?

16) And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

 

[Danny1988]

No, mountains of verses do not support Calvinism unless using eiseges then you can make anything supported by Bible verses...slavery, genocide, Communism...anything.

The Holy Bible is the Word of God, it is foolishness to those who are perishing and it can't be understood by professing believers unless they pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning.

Most professing Christians read the Bible like an encyclopedia, we can't just read it and take everything literally neither can we take it all symbolically. Calvin believed that God is sovereign over all things, you Arminian's don't believe that God is sovereign over all things, you limit Him to your own understanding. We allow Him to be sovereign over everything because He is the almighty God, He is without any limits.

We believe He decides who He will save and who He will leave in their sins, you say that you decide this. I tried to paste a list of Bible verses which prove election and predestination but there were too many to fit.

All you need to do is google, Bible verses supporting Calvinism and you will find mountains of Scriptures which show it to be true

 

[mcubed]

If you read the 5 points of each they are diametrically opposed to each other.

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to this web site,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

So what was the debate before John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius ever lived... Neither one of them lived before the 1500's?

Were non of those people saved because they did not know there should be a debate Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

 

[garee]

I almost missed this and it is quoted from my post. would people please use the quote feature? unless of course you don't want to be clear who you are posting to?




then what happens to 'I knew you in the womb?'

is that speculation on the part of God?

Sorry, I missed the quote indicator.

I would suggest that does not take away the fact that a person must be born again. The second birth was revealed to those from the womb, not by the womb

If any man has not the eternal Spirit of Christ than neither do they belong to Him. There names where written in the Lambs book of life even before their first birth.

 

[garee]

God does not need faith at all.

Really? He does not have to believe anything. How did our faithful Creator create? Or did nothing cause something?

 

[garee]

So what was the debate before John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius ever lived... Neither one of them lived before the 1500's?

Were non of those people saved because they did not know there should be a debate Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

I think it has more as to how men interpret or mix faith in what they do hear coming from the word of God.

Some say look to the literal if it makes sense look no further. While other say without parables God did not speak, hiding the spiritual understanding from the lost.

It was the difference between the reformers and the Catholics, or the Nazarene sect and that of the Pharisees with Sadducees

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Sorry, I missed the quote indicator.

I would suggest that does not take away the fact that a person must be born again. The second birth was revealed to those from the womb, not by the womb

If any man has not the eternal Spirit of Christ than neither do they belong to Him. There names where written in the Lambs book of life even before their first birth.

that's not a suggestion and has nothing to do with what I said

the Bible says we must be 'born again' or if you will, saved, converted...however a person wants to express it...meaning accept Christ as our Savior according the gosple laid out in the NT

I was replying to what you said here:

garee said:
I would agree at least no more that he forced you to be born the first time. The first creation( fleshly)

which was your response to what I said here:

God does not force anyone to accept salvation to avoid damnation

 

[DevotiontoBible]

The Holy Bible is the Word of God, it is foolishness to those who are perishing and it can't be understood by professing believers unless they pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning.

Most professing Christians read the Bible like an encyclopedia, we can't just read it and take everything literally neither can we take it all symbolically. Calvin believed that God is sovereign over all things, you Arminian's don't believe that God is sovereign over all things, you limit Him to your own understanding. We allow Him to be sovereign over everything because He is the almighty God, He is without any limits.

We believe He decides who He will save and who He will leave in their sins, you say that you decide this. I tried to paste a list of Bible verses which prove election and predestination but there were too many to fit.

All you need to do is google, Bible verses supporting Calvinism and you will find mountains of Scriptures which show it to be true

God is not sovereign over everything since His grace is not irresistible:
“You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you!
Acts of the Apostles 7:51 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/act.7.51.NLT

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Really? He does not have to believe anything. How did our faithful Creator create? Or did nothing cause something?

You think God can't see the future so He needs faith for things He can't see before it was created?