Birth of the New Testament Church

garee · Dec 9, 2018

I agree with that. Faith is a work or called a labor of love..

But whose faith is inseparable from whose person ? Is yours inseparable from Peters, Mary's or perhaps any of the legion of patron saints as workers with familiar spirits. Or is your faith separate of the Popes as a daysman (fleshly mediator as a infallible umpire set between God not seen and man seen) . Is God a man as us . or does He as supernatural not having a beginning of days no nature as our eternal God but rather abides our High Priest continually without end.?

Again.... Is it a must that we have a man seen to teach us?

Wansvic · Dec 9, 2018

garee said:

I shared scripture in my previous post regarding how we are taught. In regards to your other comment, faith is not a work. Faith is one's belief in what God's Word states. Our obedience is the action we take that proves that faith does indeed dwell within us.
Example:
God's Word instructs us to get water baptized.
We have faith that water baptism is necessary because it's in God's Word.
We obey God's instruction and get water baptized proving our indwelling faith.

Wansvic · Dec 9, 2018

Mental Belief vs Saving Faith

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:21-23

“Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” John 12:42

The scripture below records that a man named Simon who believed Philip’s message and was water baptized:

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.” Acts 8:12-13

Notice afterward that because Simon didn’t believe and act upon the entire gospel message of repentance, water baptism AND the Holy Ghost baptism Peter said he would perish:

“When Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee” Acts 8:18-20

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” James 2:19

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” James 2:20-26

Wansvic · Dec 10, 2018

Many bible verses focus on one component of the plan of salvation (Acts 2:38); ie, belief in Jesus Christ as the messiah, repentance, water baptism and Spirit baptism. This does not mean that obedience to all of the elements is not necessary.

Example:

The following scripture focuses on believing the entire gospel message and then goes on to specifically mention baptism. This scripture connects having belief (faith) and acting upon the belief:

“And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Mark 16:15-18

One can only conclude from Jesus’ words that if a person hears the gospel and believes it and afterward acts upon the specific instructions (Acts 2:38, 8:12, 10:44-48, 19:1-6) they shall be saved. However, if a person does not believe (have faith) in the message they will not obey the instructions. And the bible is clear on the consequences of not obeying God.

Jesus further mentions that those that believe the gospel message and follow its instruction will exhibit outward signs that a Spiritual rebirth has indeed taken place:

JaumeJ · Dec 10, 2018

When some insist on water baptism, my mind goes directly to the Crosss and the thief, who believed Jesus.

I am not saying to not be baptized, I believe all should in obedience and in imitating Jesus Yeshua...…….but remember also the thief.

Wansvic · Dec 10, 2018

JaumeJ said:

The thief on the cross would have been subject to the obligations/responsibilities mandated in the Old Testament. Water baptism was introduced by John the Baptist and began to be part of the plan of salvation associated with the New Testament gospel. We know the gospel included not only Jesus death, but His burial and resurrections as well.
Only those who were still alive after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection would have to obey the New Testament instructions given on the Day of Pentecost.

Wansvic · Dec 10, 2018

Notice the following scripture wherein Jesus states He does not know those who profess to know Him. These people were prophesying, casting out devils and doing many wonderful works in His name. How is it possible that Jesus would say, “I never knew you?”

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:21-23

One should consider what was missing.

The following scripture shines light on the concept of something missing as well:

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.” Acts 8:12-13

The preceding scripture indicates Simon believed he needed to be water baptized and indeed was water baptized in the name of Jesus.

Notice afterward that Simon didn’t believe and act upon the entire gospel message of repentance, water baptism AND the Holy Ghost baptism, in the correct way, so Peter said he would perish:

“When Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee” Acts 8:18-20

The bible records that everyone must believe the gospel message of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection. Afterward scripture shows how those believing the entire message regarding Jesus as their messiah are to put their faith into action by following the steps outlined on the Day of Pentecost; repentance, water baptism and Spirit baptism. (Acts 2:38)

Obedience to all of the elements is necessary and is clearly seen throughout scripture. Knowing this fact one can see a possible answer to how Jesus could say “I never knew you.” Something was missing.

If one realizes that the bible records that some people receive the Holy Ghost baptism first, and are water baptized afterward, (Acts 2:38, 10:44-48) and others get water baptized first and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost afterward (Acts 8:12, 19:1-6) a plausible answer appears.

An individual who receives the infilling/baptism of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, has the Spirit of God within their mortal body. The indwelling Spirit flowing through an individual makes prophesy possible, casting out devils/demons, and enables many wonderful works to be done such as; healing, etc. However, receiving the Holy Ghost, in and of itself, is one component needed to gain entrance into eternity.

The gospel message in its entirety must be obeyed in order to gain entrance into the eternal Kingdom of God. Remember Jesus specifically stated: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father…”

JaumeJ · Dec 10, 2018

Wansvic said:

As far as I have been given to believe, Jesus Christ gave the same Gosppel first to Abraham, then to His Original Flocke, and Finally, in gathereing that other Flock to the origina, to the Gentiles.

We are purified in believing the Words of Jesus Christ, His Gospel, the only one.

Wansvic · Dec 10, 2018

JaumeJ said:

God gave man instructions that mankind must follow in every dispensation of time:

Old Testament Examples:
Noah had to build an ark or he and his family would have perished. (Heb 11:7)
Abraham had to circumcise himself and all males if the condition was not met the soul would be cut off for breaking God's covenant (Gen 17:14)
Moses-The Lord met Moses and sought to kill him for neglecting to circumcise his infant son. (Exodus 4:21-25)

Similarly, in the New Testament God provides instructions that must be obeyed or there will be consequences.

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Col 2:11-12

YDo · Dec 10, 2018

Wansvic said:

The John 20 account was after Jesus' crucifixion.
Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for Passover. Resurrected from death three days later. Walked with his Disciples over a period of 40 days including resurrection day. Ascended on the 42nd day after Passover. And then 7 days later was Pentecost where the Holy Spirit was received by the Apostles seven full days from when Jesus went to Heaven . Which kept with the Levitical rule in Leviticus 23 and the 7 full weeks from the day of Sabbath.

Wansvic · Dec 10, 2018

YDo said:

The John 20 account was after Jesus' crucifixion.
Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for Passover. Resurrected from death three days later. Walked with his Disciples over a period of 40 days including resurrection day. Ascended on the 42nd day after Passover. And then 7 days later was Pentecost where the Holy Spirit was received by the Apostles seven full days from when Jesus went to Heaven . Which kept with the Levitical rule in Leviticus 23 and the 7 full weeks from the day of Sabbath.

I agree, it was after His crucifixion but prior to the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out.

YDo · Dec 10, 2018

Wansvic said:

The Holy Spirit made two appearances. The second was described in the book of Acts of the Apostles chapter 2 and on the day of Pentecost.

Wansvic · Dec 10, 2018

YDo said:

Thank you for bringing that to my attention again. God has used your "watering" to shine light on other portions of scripture.

YDo · Dec 10, 2018

Wansvic said:

No problem brother. We're all learning here and shall till the day we find out what's what.
I've read the Bible through and I can recall teachings in the scripturs. When sharing something though I just have to go to a search site to enter what I recall in my reading. And that lets me to find the precise book,chapter, and verse that I am remebering.

prove-all · Dec 11, 2018

YDo said:

Actually the bible says Christ keep the Lords Passover with his disciples,
on the evening start of Passover, on [the night he was betrayed].

YDo · Dec 12, 2018

prove-all said:

Does it? Where is that passage in the Bible you are referring to?

All four Gospels state that Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation (Matthew 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42). Mark, Luke, and John all state that the following day was the Sabbath. John’s account uses this wording: “It was the day of Preparation of the Passover” (John 19:14). The question becomes, since Jesus was killed on the Day of Preparation, why had He already observed the Passover with His disciples (Matthew 26:17–29; Mark 14:12–25; Luke 22:7–22; John 13:1–30)?

First, we should discard the theory that the writers of the New Testament made a mistake. Theorizing that all four of the Gospel writers got the chronology wrong stretches credulity to the breaking point. Are we really to believe that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all forgot what they had written from one chapter to the next? No, there must be a better explanation for why Jesus ate the Passover before the Day of Preparation.

@Got Questions https://www.gotquestions.org/Day-of-Preparation.html

prove-all · Dec 12, 2018

YDo said:

When Was the Lord’s Passover?

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you,
That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

The three Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke show that on the night Jesus Christ
was betrayed, He and His disciples prepared and kept the Passover (Mark 14:12,
16; Luke 22:15). The Jews, however, kept it 24 hours later (John 18:28).

Who kept the right day? Are we to assume that Christ could have kept the Passover
on the wrong day? It is the Jews today who today keep Passover on the wrong day.
https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/4830.20.0.0/religion/bible/when-was-the-lords-passover

YDo · Dec 12, 2018

prove-all said:

When Was the Lord’s Passover?

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you,
That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

The three Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke show that on the night Jesus Christ
was betrayed, He and His disciples prepared and kept the Passover (Mark 14:12,
16; Luke 22:15). The Jews, however, kept it 24 hours later (John 18:28).

Who kept the right day? Are we to assume that Christ could have kept the Passover
on the wrong day? It is the Jews today who today keep Passover on the wrong day.
https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/4830.20.0.0/religion/bible/when-was-the-lords-passover

You didn't read the scriptures and the link.

prove-all · Dec 12, 2018

YDo said:

I did read some of it. Got questions is the last place
I would look at for bible doctrine.

First all you have to do is look at a calendar,
today the Jews keep Passover on the 15th.

Then go to the old testament and see when the Passover really occurred.
Let me know when you find what day The Lords Passover is.

YDo · Dec 12, 2018

prove-all said:

Thank God Jesus didn't have the same persona in his teaching as you do.

Did you know that the Jewish calendar has a 19 year cycle? And in certain of that 19 year cycle some months have an extra month known as Adar?

Thanks.

Birth of the New Testament Church

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