Before the beginning of time...

[JohnRH]

Hi folks,

Titus 1:2 says ‘resting on the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.’

So my question is, where is this promise made? Certainly the promise is referred to and the statement repeated several times in the NT:

Eph 1:4 for he chose us, in him before the creation of the world

2 Tim 1:9 this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time

1 Pet 1:20 He (Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world

Mt 25:34 come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world

But, where is the promise actually given?
There are OT references to eternal life, but where does it say that eternal life was given to the saints from before the beginning of time?
I can’t find the promise given.
Can you?

Maybe it's a promise made among the Godhead to each other in eternity past.
... written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8
In eternity past the Godhead chose to create man, and knowing that man would sin, promised each other to provide the sacrifice (Lamb slain). Writing the forseen "whosoever wills" in the book of life could be seen as a promise.

 

[Scrobulous]

If you mean that spacetime is a real property of the universe, then yes. I just meant that our experience of time is illusionary.

Our experience of time is NOT illusory. Past, present and future are real. Time has an arrow, there really are one way physical processes. Mathemarically, it doesn’t have to be this way, but mathematics is not physics. Not everything modelled in mathematics corresponds to physical reality. Feynman talks about this, on Youtube I think. For example, it is possible to travel into the future, but it is not possible to travel into the past. And God of course is outside of time and controls time, it is part of his creation. The ‘illusion’ spoken of is only from the global perspective.

 

[Scrobulous]

Maybe it's a promise made among the Godhead to each other in eternity past.
... written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8
In eternity past the Godhead chose to create man, and knowing that man would sin, promised each other to provide the sacrifice (Lamb slain). Writing the forseen "whosoever wills" in the book of life could be seen as a promise.

Actually trofimus solved the problem. The promise of eternal life is made in the prophets - see his post.

 

[Noose]

But if you only had the OT, would you be able to say that God offered you eternal life. God’s love may br forever, but that does not mean you will live for ever to enjoy it.

There's no way anyone would've known the truth even with so many prophesies because the scriptures says they were veiled.

The garden of Eden is the heart of mankind and God planted Truth (the tree of life- which is basically Jesus) in their. When man fell, the tree was protected by Cherubims with flaming sword- meaning that no man would access truth until such a time that the tree will be exposed and that time is the new covenant.

 

[rlm68]

Actually science, by which I mean the consensus among scientists based on published and proved material, does not believe 'the essence of time is non existent'. Nor would science endorse you keyboard theory. Science makes no comment about life after death. Philosophical questions, like 'why do we exist', are also beyond the scope of real science (not that that stops Brian Cox expressing his opinion - which is not science). There is a consensus on the theory of evolution, which when you look at the details is no threat to christianity at all.

We never really touch anything? | Physics Forums
www.physicsforums.com › Physics › General Physics
Aug 11, 2013 · As has been pointed out, the source of friction is coulombic forces (i.e. electromagnetic interaction) and, just as we are discussing here, when a block or something slides across something else, like with out hands, there's not actually anything touching.

 

[maxwel]

If you read my post, I am asking where the original promise, in the OT is made. The NT is refering to a promise given by God. Where does God say, after the fall, that he offers eternal life to the saints?

This particular verse does not necessitate, or even suggest, that the promise is ever mentioned in the OT at all.

This promise may or may not appear in the OT, but this verse in no way necessitates it's appearance.






Titus 1:2 says ‘resting on the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.’

This verse says absolutely nothing about a promise appearing in the Old Testament.







...

 

[Deade]

Hi folks,

Titus 1:2 says ‘resting on the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.’

So my question is, where is this promise made? Certainly the promise is referred to and the statement repeated several times in the NT:

Eph 1:4 for he chose us, in him before the creation of the world

2 Tim 1:9 this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time

1 Pet 1:20 He (Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world

Mt 25:34 come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world

But, where is the promise actually given?
There are OT references to eternal life, but where does it say that eternal life was given to the saints from before the beginning of time?
I can’t find the promise given.
Can you?

People mistakenly think that God offered salvation to the nation of Israel when He took them over coming out of Egypt. On the contrary, salvation was not addressed at all. That is why they grumbled and moaned on just about everything. God is making access to Him more possible each dispensation than the last one.

God was alway accessible to those He drew to Himself. We don't know why but we are given names: Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc. We can assume He gave them the Holy Spirit also. With this Spirit, they learned about God's character and some of the things they are awarded when they walk with Him. In love, God shares with His own what some of His plans are. That is how the ancients and prophets learned that life everlasting was something God could do. If He could, then why wouldn't He. That seems to be the goal, God increasing the God family bringing in new heirs.

Now let's put together some of these promises. 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

This tells us that if God promised something to one person, aside from the covenants, all could avail themselves of the same. So a walk with God should include everlasting life. I assume God Spirit would share this with them. A few early promises from God are as follows:

2 Chr. 15:2 "And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

1 Chr. 16:10 "Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD."

Isa. 55:6 "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"

 

[luigi]

Certainly eternal life was offered in Christ. My question is whether this was known before Christ was revealed. Is there a universal promise that fallen man under the old covenant, had any hope of eternal life?

Ezekiel 3:23 declares that if someone who is sinner changes his ways to being just, and complying with the Lord and His ways, that individual shall then surely live. These repentant individuals from the OT times would then seem to me to qualify as part of the sheepfold with eternal life.

Ezekiel 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

[Scrobulous]

Ezekiel 3:23 declares that if someone who is sinner changes his ways to being just, and complying with the Lord and His ways, that individual shall then surely live. These repentant individuals from the OT times would then seem to me to qualify as part of the sheepfold with eternal life.

Ezekiel 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

We also found

Is 26:18-19, Septuagint

Daniel 12:2-3, Septuagint

Both of which offer the promise. My question wasn't a trick. I just didn't know the bible well enough!

 

[garee]

Exactly! I don’t know. I am asking. I can’t find the promise, but I could easily have missed it or failed to infer it.

The promise is a continue promise or pending .What we are is not what we will be according to the promise which is. Our new incorruptible bodies. For who hopes for that in which they already do have? . He as our living promise is the lamb of God as the finished work from before the foundation of the world. The promise began with ............In the beginning God. And not that God is the beginning.

 

[Scrobulous]

People mistakenly think that God offered salvation to the nation of Israel when He took them over coming out of Egypt. On the contrary, salvation was not addressed at all. That is why they grumbled and moaned on just about everything. God is making access to Him more possible each dispensation than the last one.

God was alway accessible to those He drew to Himself. We don't know why but we are given names: Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc. We can assume He gave them the Holy Spirit also. With this Spirit, they learned about God's character and some of the things they are awarded when they walk with Him. In love, God shares with His own what some of His plans are. That is how the ancients and prophets learned that life everlasting was something God could do. If He could, then why wouldn't He. That seems to be the goal, God increasing the God family bringing in new heirs.

Now let's put together some of these promises. 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

This tells us that if God promised something to one person, aside from the covenants, all could avail themselves of the same. So a walk with God should include everlasting life. I assume God Spirit would share this with them. A few early promises from God are as follows:

2 Chr. 15:2 "And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

1 Chr. 16:10 "Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD."

Isa. 55:6 "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"

Interesting post.
I had the impression that Enoch, Noah and other OT saints were selected by God because even without the spirit, they were upright and God fearing. This is why God was so pleased with them. In a way they did it in their own strength, which although isn't enough to earn salvation under our dispensation, was enough in their dispensation - it was certainly grounds for God to save them on the basis of the coming Christ.
I got then impression that the Holy Spirit rested on old testament characters for a time and in this state they would prophesy. This includes Elizabeth and Mary. After the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the new dispensation created a new kind of person that existed on the earth for the first time, a person in whom the Holy Spirit dwelled permanently.
The thing I find odd, is that with this new kind of man on the earth, I would have expected the church to continue as it was in the book of Acts, but something seems to have gone wrong.

 

[tourist]

"Titus 1:2 says ‘resting on the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

"So my question is, where is this promise made?
Certainly the promise is referred to and the statement repeated several times in the NT...
But, where is the promise actually given?"


You quite LITERALLY post the answer from scripture,
and then, with a straight face, you ask, "What is the answer?"


It must be a full moon.



...

...or possibly a new moon.

 

[Deade]

Interesting post.
I had the impression that Enoch, Noah and other OT saints were selected by God because even without the spirit, they were upright and God fearing. This is why God was so pleased with them. In a way they did it in their own strength, which although isn't enough to earn salvation under our dispensation, was enough in their dispensation - it was certainly grounds for God to save them on the basis of the coming Christ.
I got then impression that the Holy Spirit rested on old testament characters for a time and in this state they would prophesy. This includes Elizabeth and Mary. After the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the new dispensation created a new kind of person that existed on the earth for the first time, a person in whom the Holy Spirit dwelled permanently.
The thing I find odd, is that with this new kind of man on the earth, I would have expected the church to continue as it was in the book of Acts, but something seems to have gone wrong.

I don't see that the Holy Spirit was only temporary. Yes, very few were called in the OT but I think God would deal with them in a similar fashion. Let's look at David. From a youth he sought to know God and His ways. He attributed his victory over a lion and a bear to his anointing. When It came to Goliath David was upset with Israel because the Giant was mocking God. He saw it through God's eyes that this battle was the Lord's (see 1 Sam. 17:47)

David conducted himself as he was in God's presence, always. He learned about God's character through prayer and meditation. He realized God loved him and he loved God. David had gotten the drop on Saul many times but would not kill him for the Lord's sake. When David's men were practically starving, he knew God wouldn't mind them eating the day-old showbread though they normally burned it. Interesting enough if David always had the HS, why did he go off on sinful tangents a couple of times? Think census and Bathsheba. It shows us that God will back off and allow us to get into self-justification and sin. Without exception we are shown some weaknesses of the OT patriarchs.

 

[luigi]

I got then impression that the Holy Spirit rested on old testament characters for a time and in this state they would prophesy.

The Holy Spirit even rested temporarily on Saul.

1 Samuel 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
11 And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?
12 And one of the same place answered and said, But who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?

 

[Deade]

The Holy Spirit even rested temporarily on Saul.

1 Samuel 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
11 And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?
12 And one of the same place answered and said, But who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?

There is a difference between the anointing and the taking control by the HS. Once God gives us the HS, we get to keep the anointing. There are times the presence of the Spirit takes control and you hear things coming out of you with such authority, you realize God is talking through you. This often happens when preaching and witnessing. Once I was witnessing to another truck driver while we had breakfast in the truck stop. He was at a crossroad as to whether he wanted to give his life to God. While talking I even learned things from what I said.

 

[luigi]

There is a difference between the anointing and the taking control by the HS. Once God gives us the HS, we get to keep the anointing. There are times the presence of the Spirit takes control and you hear things coming out of you with such authority, you realize God is talking through you. This often happens when preaching and witnessing. Once I was witnessing to another truck driver while we had breakfast in the truck stop. He was at a crossroad as to whether he wanted to give his life to God. While talking I even learned things from what I said.

I believe the Lord allows His Holy Spirit to rest on most, if not all world leaders, as these individuals represent the primary shepherds of the people they rule over.
Saul would have had the choice to continue with the illumination the Lords Holy Spirit provided him, but Saul chose to go a different path. Likewise, many, if not most world leaders/shepherds choose other than the illumination provided by Gods Holy Spirit in favor of the deceiving false illumination provided by Satan.

Zechariah 11:16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[preacher4truth]

Hi folks,

Titus 1:2 says ‘resting on the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.’

So my question is, where is this promise made? Certainly the promise is referred to and the statement repeated several times in the NT:

I can’t find the promise given.
Can you?

Not sure why one is looking for it in the OT Scriptures when the answer is right in the passage itself in Titus 1:3, therefore one only need to read a little further for the answer. Many times if one were to just read a little prior and after a quoted text, and use context, they would receive the answer to their question:

"in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior; "

We can clearly see the answer in the highlighted portion above, for those willing to see.

One can also deduce from the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that this eternal life was inclusive now that God has granted this revelation through his Gospel.

It is highly probable this answer will not suffice the OP as clear answers from the text do not suffice for some.

 

[garee]

There is a difference between the anointing and the taking control by the HS. Once God gives us the HS, we get to keep the anointing. There are times the presence of the Spirit takes control and you hear things coming out of you with such authority, you realize God is talking through you. This often happens when preaching and witnessing. Once I was witnessing to another truck driver while we had breakfast in the truck stop. He was at a crossroad as to whether he wanted to give his life to God. While talking I even learned things from what I said.

Is Deade your handle. or is that a dead metaphor.

I would think the anointing is taking control as all one and the same work of the Holy Spirit. working in us helping to control a multiple believers at a time.

It would seem there were two angels or messengers as strangers working to give the same gospel. We should be care in who we do entertain in that way. They might as messengers have a word for us to show they both were blessed by the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God, the anointing holy Spirit of God.

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
That mutual faith is the faith of Christ the treasure we do have in these bodies of death as the power of God.

Keep truckin