Before the beginning of time...

[zeroturbulence]

Hi folks,

Titus 1:2 says ‘resting on the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.’

So my question is, where is this promise made? Certainly the promise is referred to and the statement repeated several times in the NT:

Eph 1:4 for he chose us, in him before the creation of the world

2 Tim 1:9 this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time

1 Pet 1:20 He (Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world

Mt 25:34 come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world

But, where is the promise actually given?
There are OT references to eternal life, but where does it say that eternal life was given to the saints from before the beginning of time?
I can’t find the promise given.
Can you?

There's actually no such thing as time. It's a man-made concept, a way of measuring the progression of things. If someone says, "Draw me a picture of time." One couldn't because time isn't real. One could draw a clock, but a clock isn't time. It's just a machine with numbers on it.

Anyway, the promise is simply something that always was. "Before the beginning" simply means that it was always part of "the plan". There was never a time when it wasn't.

 

[Scrobulous]

And why do you think it was made in the OT?

Exactly! I don’t know. I am asking. I can’t find the promise, but I could easily have missed it or failed to infer it.

 

[Scrobulous]

There's actually no such thing as time. It's a man-made concept, a way of measuring the progression of things. If someone says, "Draw me a picture of time." One couldn't because time isn't real. One could draw a clock, but a clock isn't time. It's just a machine with numbers on it.

Anyway, the promise is simply something that always was. "Before the beginning" simply means that it was always part of "the plan". There was never a time when it wasn't.

Well, if what you can draw is to be the arbiter of truth, then we seem to have adandoned reason altogether. So, you are saying before man, the animals were all frozen like statues, since events could not procede from one another. Einstein would certainly find your comment very strange, as would the entire community of scientists. I suspect this doesn’t worry you?

 

[Scrobulous]

perhaps it is implicit in 'slain from the foundation of the world' or in that He knows and declares 'the end from the beginning'?

is this something we ought to infer simply from what we know about the character of God?

Exactly. I think the old covenant saints inferred it from their experience. It seems most people believed they woukd end up in Sheol.

 

[Scrobulous]

One either believes that the writer of Titus was inspired by the Holy Spirit of God to write down that or they don't..

So the promise was made and the writer of Titus revealed by the power of the Holy Spirit that the promise was made when it was made..

I don’t think I explained my question clearly enough. I was asking whether under the old covenant, I had any OT promise to give me hope of eternal life. See my comments lower down.

 

[zeroturbulence]

Well, if what you can draw is to be the arbiter of truth, then we seem to have adandoned reason altogether. So, you are saying before man, the animals were all frozen like statues, since events could not procede from one another. Einstein would certainly find your comment very strange, as would the entire community of scientists. I suspect this doesn’t worry you?

Well I heard that time doesn't exist from a scientist, so there's that.

 

[Scrobulous]

Might want to consider Genesis the creation of Adam. The punishment for sin is death. Scripture suggest that if Adam didn't sin he would live forever.

True. But after the fall, is there any reason a person under the old covenant could expect eternal life? Or was this promise hidden until Christ was revealed?

 

[trofimus]

Exactly. I think the old covenant saints inferred it from their experience. It seems most people believed they woukd end up in Sheol.

Sheol was just "underworld" a place without any strong inclination to be pleasant or unpleasant. Their hope was in the resurrection in the end of the world.

 

[Scrobulous]

Sheol was just "underworld" a place without any strong inclination to be pleasant or unpleasant. Their hope was in the resurrection in the end of the world.

And what was this hope based on?

 

[Scrobulous]

Well I heard that time doesn't exist from a scientist, so there's that.

My friend, there are individual scientists and doctors who will say anything. What do you think? Does this idea sound reasonable to you?

 

[zeroturbulence]

My friend, there are individual scientists and doctors who will say anything. What do you think? Does this idea sound reasonable to you?

Actually, most physicists will tell you that time doesn't exist. If you don't believe me you can google it.

 

[Scrobulous]

Actually, most physicists will tell you that time doesn't exist. If you don't believe me you can google it.

I challenge you to send me a link where any scientist is proposing that time does not exist!

 

[trofimus]

And what was this hope based on?

I think its mainly in prophets.

"We have conceived, O Lord, because of thy fear, and have been in pain, and have brought forth the breath of thy salvation, which we have wrought upon the earth: we shall not fall, but all that dwell upon the land shall fall.
The dead shall rise, and they that are in the tombs shall be raised, and they that are in the earth shall rejoice: for the dew from thee is healing to them"

Is 26:18-19, Septuagint

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.
And the wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and [some] of the many righteous as the stars for ever and ever."

Daniel 12:2-3, Septuagint

 

[rlm68]

I absolutely believe before God ever decided to create the universe and then humanity, He planned everything as we read from Genesis to Revelation. He knew He was going to wrap Himself in flesh and become the sacrifice that would save our sinful souls. He made the promises before there was ever anyone to make a promise to. The only thing at that moment left for God to do, was to put everything into motion. Every situation, trial, lesson mankind would endure, God already had in mind how to teach us and help us grow in Him. He foresaw it all, and then as it played out, He was there to be our guide in order for us to succeed and achieve in every way.

So, to properly answer your question, concerning when specifically this promise was made. Requires us to use common sense by our knowledge of who we know God is, and to think outside the box with said knowledge. In order to be the FIRST and the LAST, ALPHA and OMEGA, BEGINNING and the END...is to obviously know before hand what your plan is from then till now. Therefore, my answer is, He being God Almighty made that promise before He ever spoke the universe into existence!!

 

[trofimus]

I challenge you to send me a link where any scientist is proposing that time does not exist!

 

[Scrobulous]

I think its mainly in prophets.

"We have conceived, O Lord, because of thy fear, and have been in pain, and have brought forth the breath of thy salvation, which we have wrought upon the earth: we shall not fall, but all that dwell upon the land shall fall.
The dead shall rise, and they that are in the tombs shall be raised, and they that are in the earth shall rejoice: for the dew from thee is healing to them"

Is 26:18-19, Septuagint

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.
And the wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and [some] of the many righteous as the stars for ever and ever."

Daniel 12:2-3, Septuagint

I think you’ve cracked it, trofimus! These are general promises! Thanks very much.

 

[rlm68]

The basic reason science believes the essence of time is non existent is due to their belief that everything is just forms of energy. Science would state the keyboard I am typing that my fingers are not actually touching the keys to write and then hit send to post. To science, my finger connecting to the keys are like magnets retracting. my energy is forcing a retraction that causes the energy of the key pad to be pressed.

Science still believes the original parent of us all that we supposedly evolved from is still acting out how as a single cell it split to become a new creature. They just believe it is in a separate realm from the realm where we are now. They believe as energy, we actually never die, but continue in our realm replaying what we believe to be our entire life. It can easily be explained by how you would classify a place being haunted. In a place thought to be haunted, you can see a vision of something from the past that may walk from one end of the hall to the other end and then just vanish. And this vision seems to happen around the same time every day/night doing the same thing each time. Like trapped energy doing a replay over and over and over.

It really cracks me up to think that so many people believe those within science are brilliant. This energy being replayed over and over and over is their definition to what we will do after this life in our realm. I do not call that brilliant, I call that being stoned off some good herb

 

[Scrobulous]

I hope you watched the video. It shows that time most definitely does exist. The point about past, present and future being an illusion is only from the global perspective. For any individual, time, with it's past, present and future are the familiar reality that we all know. But from a global perspective, there are inconsistencies in what 'now' means between observers separated by distance and velocity. It does not mean that there is no such thing as time any more than it means there is no such thing as space. But relativistic effects throw up some interesting perspectives on the nature of reality.

 

[Scrobulous]

The basic reason science believes the essence of time is non existent is due to their belief that everything is just forms of energy. Science would state the keyboard I am typing that my fingers are not actually touching the keys to write and then hit send to post. To science, my finger connecting to the keys are like magnets retracting. my energy is forcing a retraction that causes the energy of the key pad to be pressed.

Science still believes the original parent of us all that we supposedly evolved from is still acting out how as a single cell it split to become a new creature. They just believe it is in a separate realm from the realm where we are now. They believe as energy, we actually never die, but continue in our realm replaying what we believe to be our entire life. It can easily be explained by how you would classify a place being haunted. In a place thought to be haunted, you can see a vision of something from the past that may walk from one end of the hall to the other end and then just vanish. And this vision seems to happen around the same time every day/night doing the same thing each time. Like trapped energy doing a replay over and over and over.

It really cracks me up to think that so many people believe those within science are brilliant. This energy being replayed over and over and over is their definition to what we will do after this life in our realm. I do not call that brilliant, I call that being stoned off some good herb

Actually science, by which I mean the consensus among scientists based on published and proved material, does not believe 'the essence of time is non existent'. Nor would science endorse you keyboard theory. Science makes no comment about life after death. Philosophical questions, like 'why do we exist', are also beyond the scope of real science (not that that stops Brian Cox expressing his opinion - which is not science). There is a consensus on the theory of evolution, which when you look at the details is no threat to christianity at all.

 

[trofimus]

I hope you watched the video. It shows that time most definitely does exist. The point about past, present and future being an illusion is only from the global perspective. For any individual, time, with it's past, present and future are the familiar reality that we all know. But from a global perspective, there are inconsistencies in what 'now' means between observers separated by distance and velocity. It does not mean that there is no such thing as time any more than it means there is no such thing as space. But relativistic effects throw up some interesting perspectives on the nature of reality.

If you mean that spacetime is a real property of the universe, then yes. I just meant that our experience of time is illusionary.