Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

[Magenta]

Peter commanded (not encouraged) water baptism in Acts 2:38.

Peter commanded Cornelius and those who had already received the Holy Spirit to be water baptized. How many people have YOU baptized as per the command of JESUS?

What is so shameful about personal claims of Holy Spirit baptisms being conjecture? Are they not based on conjecture? Please look up the meaning of conjecture before answering.

I don't need to look up the word "conjecture" to know what it means. Shame on you for saying claims of Holy Spirit baptism are conjecture. Holy Spirit baptism was affirmed in all four gospels, as well as the book of Acts. Do you look at all of Scripture as being conjecture, esoteric, general and abstract?

 

[mailmandan]

Where in the verbiage of these two verses does it say they were converted/saved before they were baptized?

These Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17) AND spoke in tongues, which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians chapter 12) all BEFORE water baptism and you equate that to not converted/not saved? If you can believe that, then you can believe anything!

In Acts 11:17, we see they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, so it was an established fact that these Gentiles believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and in Acts 16:31, we read - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..” I have already previously thoroughly explained this to you in this thread below:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/155851-i-forgot-baptized-8.html#post3233617

 

[notuptome]

Where in the verbiage of these two verses does it say they were converted/saved before they were baptized?

Verse 47 is very clear.

Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?

Really it does not get any more evident than that. Verse 44 tells us that the Holy Spirit fell on them who heard the word. Puts it into context. Peter declared the word of God the people heard and were saved. The Holy Spirit was evidenced by them speaking in tongues so the circumcision would have undeniable proof of Gentiles being saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preston39]

The bible commands it, that's true. BUT getting immersed in water does NOT give us salvation. God's grace through OUR faith and belief in Him is what saves us... so getting dunked in water will NOT save you, nor get you to heaven.

b...,

You have the sequence out of order'

Repentance
Baptism
Righteousness

All three required.
Baptism is just as important for cleansing as repentance and righteous living.

 

[DJ2]

Peter commanded Cornelius and those who had already received the Holy Spirit to be water baptized. How many people have YOU baptized as per the command of JESUS?

I don't need to look up the word "conjecture" to know what it means. Shame on you for saying claims of Holy Spirit baptism are conjecture. Holy Spirit baptism was affirmed in all four gospels, as well as the book of Acts. Do you look at all of Scripture as being conjecture, esoteric, general and abstract?

Peter commanded Cornelius and those who had already received the Holy Spirit to be water baptized. How many people have YOU baptized as per the command of JESUS

What seems to be the problem? You asked for an example of someone being commanded to be baptized and I gave it to you. (Acts 2:38)

Your bringing up Cornelius' household is not Acts 2:38. Whether or not every gentile that the Holy Spirit fell upon during that event believed or not is not the point. The Holy Spirit fell upon a vengeful King Saul as he chased David, what does this prove? The events of Acts 10 do not alter the need for water baptism as the point of forgiveness of sins, hence the command (not encouragement) to be baptized.

Speaking in tongues does not take away sins nor is it proof of it!

I don't need to look up the word "conjecture" to know what it means. Shame on you for saying claims of Holy Spirit baptism are conjecture. Holy Spirit baptism was affirmed in all four gospels, as well as the book of Acts. Do you look at all of Scripture as being conjecture, esoteric, general and abstract?

It seems I should have requested you to look up the meaning of "personal" and "individual" as well. "Holy Spirit baptism" is affirmed in the scriptures but my point was personal and individual claims of Holy Spirit baptism are based on conjecture and there is no way around this truth.

I clearly wrote in post 968 and 977 either personal or individual claims of Holy Spirit baptism. Are you truly reading the posts?

 

[DJ2]

These Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17) AND spoke in tongues, which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians chapter 12) all BEFORE water baptism and you equate that to not converted/not saved? If you can believe that, then you can believe anything!

In Acts 11:17, we see they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, so it was an established fact that these Gentiles believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and in Acts 16:31, we read - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..” I have already previously thoroughly explained this to you in this thread below:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/155851-i-forgot-baptized-8.html#post3233617

Attempting to use the Holy Spirit falling upon the household of Cornelius as a loophole around baptism as the moment of the forgiveness of sins is rather weak. Salvation is based upon believers in Jesus Christ submitting to water baptism as a pledge to God in a clear conscience (Acts 2:38 and 1st Peter 3:21). The Holy Spirit using this event to teach the acceptance of the Gentiles does not alter the requirement to baptize those who believe. If you can believe this event negates the need for the remission of sins through baptism, then you will believe anything!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Attempting to use the Holy Spirit falling upon the household of Cornelius as a loophole around baptism as the moment of the forgiveness of sins is rather weak. Salvation is based upon believers in Jesus Christ submitting to water baptism as a pledge to God in a clear conscience (Acts 2:38 and 1st Peter 3:21). The Holy Spirit using this event to teach the acceptance of the Gentiles does not alter the requirement to baptize those who believe. If you can believe this event negates the need for the remission of sins through baptism, then you will believe anything!

So according to your theory at what point were sins forgiven in the following instances (biblical support necessary). Forgiveness of sins is simultaneous with all the other aspects of justification and salvation by grace through faith.

1. The baptism of Saul (who became Paul)

2. The baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch

3. The baptism of the Philippian jailer and his household

 

[mailmandan]

Attempting to use the Holy Spirit falling upon the household of Cornelius as a loophole around baptism as the moment of the forgiveness of sins is rather weak.

Baptism is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. *Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” These Gentiles believed in Him/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/spoke in tongues and were obviously saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). *Crystal clear.

Once again, in Acts 11:17, we see that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, so it was an established fact that these Gentiles believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and in Acts 16:31, we read - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..” *Show me just one example in the NT where a lost unbeliever received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I'll be waiting.

Salvation is based upon believers in Jesus Christ submitting to water baptism as a pledge to God in a clear conscience (Acts 2:38 and 1st Peter 3:21).

False. The Amplified Bible reads - 1 Peter 3:21 - Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

*Footnotes:

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3:21&version=AMP

A symbol can be used to refer to the reality and that seems to be what is confusing you. A FLOOD of confusion.

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Baptism is a pledge to God made from a good conscience. We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents."

By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. So in 1 Peter 3:21; it's not the water itself that saves us, but the "appeal-to-God-for-good-conscience". Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

In regards to Acts 2:38, as I have already explained to you numerous times -- Faith in Jesus Christ implied in genuine repentance (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

The Holy Spirit using this event to teach the acceptance of the Gentiles does not alter the requirement to baptize those who believe. If you can believe this event negates the need for the remission of sins through baptism, then you will believe anything!

This event not only demonstrated to the Jews that God has accepted the Gentiles into the body of Christ, but also demonstrates that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ AND spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians chapter 12) and were a part of the body of Christ and saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; 16:31). They were commanded to be water baptized AFTERWARDS (Acts 10:47,48). Your biased church doctrine does not alter this truth.

The remission of sins is SIGNIFIED, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. You need to quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE the gospel. Again, if you can believe that "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/spoke in tongues" BEFORE water baptism = still lost in your sins, then you can believe anything!

You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

 

[DJ2]

Baptism is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. *Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” These Gentiles believed in Him/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/spoke in tongues and were obviously saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). *Crystal clear.

Once again, in Acts 11:17, we see that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, so it was an established fact that these Gentiles believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and in Acts 16:31, we read - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..” *Show me just one example in the NT where a lost unbeliever received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I'll be waiting.

False. The Amplified Bible reads - 1 Peter 3:21 - Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

*Footnotes:

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A21&version=AMP

A symbol can be used to refer to the reality and that seems to be what is confusing you. A FLOOD of confusion.

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Baptism is a pledge to God made from a good conscience. We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents."

By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. So in 1 Peter 3:21; it's not the water itself that saves us, but the "appeal-to-God-for-good-conscience". Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

In regards to Acts 2:38, as I have already explained to you numerous times -- Faith in Jesus Christ implied in genuine repentance (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

This event not only demonstrated to the Jews that God has accepted the Gentiles into the body of Christ, but also demonstrates that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ AND spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians chapter 12) and were a part of the body of Christ and saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; 16:31). They were commanded to be water baptized AFTERWARDS (Acts 10:47,48). Your biased church doctrine does not alter this truth.

The remission of sins is SIGNIFIED, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. You need to quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE the gospel. Again, if you can believe that "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/spoke in tongues" BEFORE water baptism = still lost in your sins, then you can believe anything!

You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

Baptism is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. *Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” These Gentiles believed in Him/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/spoke in tongues and were obviously saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). *Crystal clear.

Faith alone is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. *Acts 2:38 - "Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Those cut to the heart believed/were baptized/received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE being added to the 3000 added that day (Acts 2:41). *Crystal clear.

Once again, in Acts 11:17, we see that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, so it was an established fact that these Gentiles believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and in Acts 16:31, we read - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..” *Show me just one example in the NT where a lost unbeliever received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I'll be waiting.

1. The Bible does not say they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, just that the power of the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues. Much like King Saul in 1st Samuel 19:23.
2. Of course they believed before water baptism what would be the point of believing after.
3. What does Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16 have to do with Acts 10? Were they not all water baptized for the remission of sin as in Acts 2?
4. The Holy Spirit has fallen on many in the Bible in order to do the will of God. The events at the home of Cornelius is not a loophole around Acts 2.
5. Show you an example of a lost unbeliever receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit? There are none and when the household of Cornelius were water baptized for the remission of sins there were still none. What is your point?

False. The Amplified Bible reads - 1 Peter 3:21 - Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood],baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

*Footnotes:

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

I have no desire to debate your commentaries.

In regards to Acts 2:38, as I have already explained to you numerous times -- Faith in Jesus Christ implied in genuine repentance (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

In regards to Acts 2:38 I too have explained to you numerous times -- that your faith alone regeneration theology does not change the verbiage of the written word.

The events of Acts 10 are of a descriptive nature, recording the will of God to bring the Gentiles into the Body of Christ. It is not to be used to negate the prescriptive events of Acts 2 toward the remission of sins.

You would refuse to open the door of a knocking Savoir in order to not appear as earning salvation.

 

[DJ2]

Baptism is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. *Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” These Gentiles believed in Him/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/spoke in tongues and were obviously saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). *Crystal clear.

Once again, in Acts 11:17, we see that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, so it was an established fact that these Gentiles believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and in Acts 16:31, we read - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..” *Show me just one example in the NT where a lost unbeliever received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I'll be waiting.

False. The Amplified Bible reads - 1 Peter 3:21 - Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

*Footnotes:

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3:21&version=AMP

A symbol can be used to refer to the reality and that seems to be what is confusing you. A FLOOD of confusion.

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Baptism is a pledge to God made from a good conscience. We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents."

By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. So in 1 Peter 3:21; it's not the water itself that saves us, but the "appeal-to-God-for-good-conscience". Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

In regards to Acts 2:38, as I have already explained to you numerous times -- Faith in Jesus Christ implied in genuine repentance (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

This event not only demonstrated to the Jews that God has accepted the Gentiles into the body of Christ, but also demonstrates that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ AND spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians chapter 12) and were a part of the body of Christ and saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; 16:31). They were commanded to be water baptized AFTERWARDS (Acts 10:47,48). Your biased church doctrine does not alter this truth.

The remission of sins is SIGNIFIED, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. You need to quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE the gospel. Again, if you can believe that "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/spoke in tongues" BEFORE water baptism = still lost in your sins, then you can believe anything!

You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

Baptism is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. *Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” These Gentiles believed in Him/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/spoke in tongues and were obviously saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). *Crystal clear.

Faith alone is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. *Acts 2:38 - "Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Those cut to the heart believed/were baptized/received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE being added to the 3000 added that day (Acts 2:41). *Crystal clear.

Once again, in Acts 11:17, we see that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, so it was an established fact that these Gentiles believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism and in Acts 16:31, we read - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..” *Show me just one example in the NT where a lost unbeliever received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I'll be waiting.

1. The Bible does not say they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, just that the power of the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues. Much like King Saul in 1st Samuel 19:23.
2. Of course they believed before water baptism what would be the point of believing after.
3. What does Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16 have to do with Acts 10? Were they not all water baptized for the remission of sin as in Acts 2?
4. The Holy Spirit has fallen on many in the Bible in order to do the will of God. The events at the home of Cornelius is not a loophole around Acts 2.
5. Show you an example of a lost unbeliever receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit? There are none and when the household of Cornelius were water baptized for the remission of sins there were still none. What is your point?

False. The Amplified Bible reads - 1 Peter 3:21 - Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood],baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

*Footnotes:

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

I have no desire to debate your commentaries.

In regards to Acts 2:38, as I have already explained to you numerous times -- Faith in Jesus Christ implied in genuine repentance (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

In regards to Acts 2:38 I too have explained to you numerous times -- that your faith alone regeneration theology does not change the verbiage of the written word.

The events of Acts 10 are of a descriptive nature, recording the will of God to bring the Gentiles into the Body of Christ. It is not to be used to negate the prescriptive events of Acts 2 toward the remission of sins.

You would refuse to open the door of a knocking Savoir in order to not appear as earning salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith alone is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins.

Yes it is. Therefore, having been justified by FAITH.. (Romans 5:1) *not faith and baptism* For by grace you have been saved through FAITH.. (Ephesians 2:8) *not faith and baptism* Man is justified/accounted as righteous/saved through FAITH "apart from additions or modifications." (Romans 4:2-6)Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by FAITH in Me. *not faith and baptism*

*Acts 2:38 - "Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Those cut to the heart believed/were baptized/received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE being added to the 3000 added that day (Acts 2:41). *Crystal clear.

They were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith BEFORE water baptism, just as we see in Acts 10:43, 47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9. Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

1. The Bible does not say they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, just that the power of the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues. Much like King Saul in 1st Samuel 19:23.

Absolutely false! Acts 10:45 clearly says the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. Acts 10:47 says they received the Holy Spirit.. Acts 11:17 says God gave to them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.. *Also see Ephesians 1:13. Under the New Covenant, believers are permanently sealed in the body of Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the "guarantee of our inheritance" (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit coming upon certain individuals in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Spirit "came upon" such people in the Old Testament as Moses (Numbers 11:25) Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and even Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Spirit "coming upon" the various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks but again, it was selective and temporary, unlike believers in the NT (1 Corinthians 12:13) so your argument is moot.

2. Of course they believed before water baptism what would be the point of believing after.

Yes they did believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17) and Acts 16:31 says - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.." That is solid proof they were saved BEFORE water baptism, but you continue to fight against the truth for the sake of your biased church doctrine motivated by PRIDE!

3. What does Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16 have to do with Acts 10? Were they not all water baptized for the remission of sin as in Acts 2?

It has everything to do with Acts 10:43 and Acts 11:17. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. *Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47). In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18. So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

4. The Holy Spirit has fallen on many in the Bible in order to do the will of God. The events at the home of Cornelius is not a loophole around Acts 2.

The Holy Spirit fell upon prophets in the Old Testament to do God's will, BUT this was selective and temporary and the Holy Spirit did not permanently seal believers in the body of Christ until AFTER Pentecost in the New Testament. Things changed after the New Covenant. You need to rightly divide the word of truth and stop grasping for straws.

5. Show you an example of a lost unbeliever receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit? There are none and when the household of Cornelius were water baptized for the remission of sins there were still none. What is your point?

Of course there are no examples of a lost unbeliever receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is my point. Lost unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and these Gentiles were not lost unbelievers, but saved believers when they received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE receiving water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17). To not accept this crystal clear truth is to be blatantly dishonest.

In regards to Acts 2:38 I too have explained to you numerous times -- that your faith alone regeneration theology does not change the verbiage of the written word.

Your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 does not change the fact that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

The events of Acts 10 are of a descriptive nature, recording the will of God to bring the Gentiles into the Body of Christ. It is not to be used to negate the prescriptive events of Acts 2 toward the remission of sins.

The events of Acts 10 clearly negate your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 and your perverted water gospel.

You would refuse to open the door of a knocking Savoir in order to not appear as earning salvation.

Seeking salvation by "water and works" is not how one opens the door of a knocking Savior and receives Him through FAITH. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith alone is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins.

Something went haywire on CC yesterday when I responded to this post, so I'm reposting it:

Yes it is. Therefore, having been justified by FAITH.. (Romans 5:1) *not faith and baptism*

For by grace you have been saved through FAITH.. (Ephesians 2:8) *not faith and baptism*

Man is justified/accounted as righteous/saved through FAITH "apart from additions or modifications." (Romans 4:2-6)

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by FAITH in Me. *not faith and baptism*

*Acts 2:38 - "Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Those cut to the heart believed/were baptized/received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE being added to the 3000 added that day (Acts 2:41). *Crystal clear.

They were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith BEFORE water baptism, just as we see in Acts 10:43, 47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9. Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism? Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

1. The Bible does not say they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, just that the power of the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues. Much like King Saul in 1st Samuel 19:23.

Absolutely false! Acts 10:45 clearly says the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. Acts 10:47 says they received the Holy Spirit.. Acts 11:17 says God gave to them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.. *Also see Ephesians 1:13.

Under the New Covenant, believers are permanently sealed in the body of Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the "guarantee of our inheritance" (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit coming upon certain individuals in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Spirit "came upon" such people in the Old Testament as Moses (Numbers 11:25) Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and even Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Spirit "coming upon" the various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks but again, it was selective and temporary, unlike believers in the NT (1 Corinthians 12:13) so your argument is moot.

2. Of course they believed before water baptism what would be the point of believing after.

Yes they did believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17) and Acts 16:31 says - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.." That is solid proof they were saved BEFORE water baptism, but you continue to fight against the truth for the sake of your biased church doctrine.

3. What does Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16 have to do with Acts 10? Were they not all water baptized for the remission of sin as in Acts 2?

It has everything to do with Acts 10:43 and Acts 11:17. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47). In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

4. The Holy Spirit has fallen on many in the Bible in order to do the will of God. The events at the home of Cornelius is not a loophole around Acts 2.

The Holy Spirit fell upon prophets in the Old Testament to do God's will, BUT this was selective and temporary and the Holy Spirit did not permanently seal believers in the body of Christ until AFTER Pentecost in the New Testament. Things changed under the New Covenant. You need to rightly divide the word of truth and stop grasping for straws. The events in Acts 2 is not a loophole around the events in Acts 10.

5. Show you an example of a lost unbeliever receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit? There are none and when the household of Cornelius were water baptized for the remission of sins there were still none. What is your point?

Of course there are no examples of a lost unbeliever receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. *That is my point. *Lost unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and these Gentiles were not lost unbelievers, but saved believers when they received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE receiving water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17). To not accept this crystal clear truth is to be blatantly dishonest!

I have no desire to debate your commentaries.

Just allow the truth to sink in. 1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

In regards to Acts 2:38 I too have explained to you numerous times -- that your faith alone regeneration theology does not change the verbiage of the written word.

Your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 does not change the fact that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

The events of Acts 10 are of a descriptive nature, recording the will of God to bring the Gentiles into the Body of Christ. It is not to be used to negate the prescriptive events of Acts 2 toward the remission of sins.

The events of Acts 10 clearly negate your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 and your perverted water gospel.

You would refuse to open the door of a knocking Savoir in order to not appear as earning salvation.

Seeking salvation by "water and works" is not how one opens the door of a knocking Savior and receives Him through FAITH. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[preston39]

Something went haywire on CC yesterday when I responded to this post, so I'm reposting it:

Yes it is. Therefore, having been justified by FAITH.. (Romans 5:1) *not faith and baptism*

For by grace you have been saved through FAITH.. (Ephesians 2:8) *not faith and baptism*

Man is justified/accounted as righteous/saved through FAITH "apart from additions or modifications." (Romans 4:2-6)

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by FAITH in Me. *not faith and baptism*

They were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith BEFORE water baptism, just as we see in Acts 10:43, 47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9. Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism? Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Absolutely false! Acts 10:45 clearly says the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. Acts 10:47 says they received the Holy Spirit.. Acts 11:17 says God gave to them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.. *Also see Ephesians 1:13.

Under the New Covenant, believers are permanently sealed in the body of Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the "guarantee of our inheritance" (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit coming upon certain individuals in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Spirit "came upon" such people in the Old Testament as Moses (Numbers 11:25) Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and even Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Spirit "coming upon" the various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks but again, it was selective and temporary, unlike believers in the NT (1 Corinthians 12:13) so your argument is moot.

Yes they did believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17) and Acts 16:31 says - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.." That is solid proof they were saved BEFORE water baptism, but you continue to fight against the truth for the sake of your biased church doctrine.

It has everything to do with Acts 10:43 and Acts 11:17. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47). In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

The Holy Spirit fell upon prophets in the Old Testament to do God's will, BUT this was selective and temporary and the Holy Spirit did not permanently seal believers in the body of Christ until AFTER Pentecost in the New Testament. Things changed under the New Covenant. You need to rightly divide the word of truth and stop grasping for straws. The events in Acts 2 is not a loophole around the events in Acts 10.

Of course there are no examples of a lost unbeliever receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. *That is my point. *Lost unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and these Gentiles were not lost unbelievers, but saved believers when they received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE receiving water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17). To not accept this crystal clear truth is to be blatantly dishonest!

Just allow the truth to sink in. 1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

Your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 does not change the fact that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

The events of Acts 10 clearly negate your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 and your perverted water gospel.

Seeking salvation by "water and works" is not how one opens the door of a knocking Savior and receives Him through FAITH. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

m...,

Now do similar with baptism and .....I will ask ....where the mention of faith is.

Baptism is part of getting the heart prepared so faith is possible.

 

[mailmandan]

m...,

Now do similar with baptism and .....I will ask ....where the mention of faith is.

Baptism is part of getting the heart prepared so faith is possible.

Faith in Christ precedes water baptism. Why don’t you try quoting scripture along with your questions?

 

[Nehemiah6]

m...,

Now do similar with baptism and .....I will ask ....where the mention of faith is.

Baptism is part of getting the heart prepared so faith is possible.

Why don't you take some time to study Acts 16:23-34 and confirm that faith (believing) PRECEDES water baptism. This is consistent throughout the Acts of the Apostles. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:

24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks.

25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [FAITH]

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. [FAITH]

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. [BAPTISM]

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

 

[joefizz]

b...,

You have the sequence out of order'

Repentance
Baptism
Righteousness

All three required.
Baptism is just as important for cleansing as repentance and righteous living.

Actually that's rather inaccurate it's more like this...
1.Hear God's word
2.Seek to do right for God/Jesus
3.Accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, asking to be saved and giving oath of repentance
4.Striving to do right and seeking to be water baptized if struggling(not required but important for many or as a another "promise" that you will strive to do right by God/Jesus)

 

[preston39]

Faith in Christ precedes water baptism. Why don’t you try quoting scripture along with your questions?

m...,

Really.....I would have never known that without your input. Where did I suggest it did?

Because you pay no attention to scriptures...as exhibited here. Probably because you don't understand them...I conclude.

 

[mailmandan]

m...,

Really.....I would have never known that without your input. Where did I suggest it did?

You really have to ask?

Baptism is part of getting the heart prepared so faith is possible.

Baptism doesn’t make faith possible. Faith is already established prior to receiving water baptism.

Because you pay no attention to scriptures...as exhibited here. Probably because you don't understand them...I conclude.

Yeah right. That statement is the epitome of irony. I back up my arguments with scripture. All you do is make wise cracks because you have no rebuttal. I conclude.

 

[DiscipleDave]

It does not mention it, but I bet you in an instant he was baptized in the holy ghost after that confession.

Actually, the thief was Holy Ghost Baptized before he said what he did to Jesus. Consider the Scriptures:

Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

There were only two thieves crucified with Him, so then according to this inspired by God verses above, BOTH of them, at the first, were saying things against Jesus Christ. Something changed in one of them, After this point, a change of heart, then we see one of them saying:

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged (continued to) railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So then at the first Both were railing on Him. The heart in one of them was changed. And we KNOW that this particular thief had the Holy Ghost the moment he called Jesus "Lord" For it written:

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Therefore the man on the cross which called Jesus "Lord" was indeed already baptized by the Holy Ghost, His heart was changed in him. The thief on the cross was indeed Baptized. NOT water Baptized, but Holy Ghost Baptized, which is a requirement for one to be Saved.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Once saved a person will naturally want to get Baptized, by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Myself, I was first baptized in the Holy Spirit, it was the Spirit that lead me to baptism by water. Therefore, I was saved prior to my baptism in water. This will explain it well: https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html

Acts 8, 9, and 10.

Acts 8: Water baptized, then another day got Holy Ghost baptized.
Acts 9: Holy Ghost baptized, then got water baptized.
Acts 10: Holy Ghost baptized, then got water baptized.

We also see in Chapter 8 how someone can believe, be water baptized and have no part with the Holy Ghost baptism, because his heart was not right. So then yet again another example how believing and water baptism does NOT Save you. Believing and a Holy Ghost baptism is what Saves you, NOT water baptism. Demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and even testify that He is, but even though they believe, they are not Saved because they are not Holy Ghost baptized.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave