Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Here's another post I made some time back (on this):

[quoting]

[...] 1Th5:2-3 (where Paul refers to the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... SAME ONE Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse! )

So, if someone back then (hypothetically) were to "read back this [2nd] letter to Paul" [that he wrote to them, 2Th] and put it in other words, to show they've understood him, they could say,


[in view of v.2's "[don't let anyone convince you] that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]" (JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth)]

v.3 (basically, in effect, saying) - "the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period [v.2's Subject ^ ] [i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" (Matt24:4/Mk13:5)] will NOT be present [to unfold upon the earth] if not shall have come *THE RAPTURE [definite "noun-event" previously mentioned in this context] *FIRST* [(1Th4:13-17, 2Th2:1, and other refs) the text names ONE THING ONLY as *FIRST*] and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."

(his "be revealed" corresponds with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" at the START of the [7] trib yrs [not at its MIDDLE nor its END], same as in other related passages [i.e. the later Rev6:2 ref, and the previous Dan9:27a[26b] ref, etc etc...])


[ * the Greek uses the definite article ('THE'... 'THE DEPARTURE' [i.e. 'our Rapture' event from v.1], in v.3)]

[end quoting that old post]

 

[Nehemiah6]

but in 1 Cor 15 it says that all will be made alive but each in their own turn. Now if we are going to be resurrected each in their own order then those who are changed instead of resurrected are going to be changed in their own order as well.

It seems that you have misunderstood that passage. "Each in his own order" means each one according to the metaphor of a Hebrew harvest which had three phases: (1) the first fruits, (2) the main harvest, and (3) the gleanings.

CHRIST = the first fruits

THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE = the main harvest

THE TRIBULATION SAINTS = the gleanings

This is all a part of "the first resurrection" (which is the resurrection of the just). However, after the Millennium, and over 1,000 years after the Resurrection/Rapture, there will be "the second resurrection" (which is the resurrection of the unjust). This is at the Great White Throne judgment.
However Christ used the metaphors of "the last day" and "the hour" to refer to a period of time which extends well beyond a thousand years. Some people wish to take "the last day" literally as a 24-hour day, but that would be absurd.

 

[KJV1611]

@Yahshua

I remember a few years back, you were asking about how it is that believers never die and why aren't we seeing this today. Well here is the answer.

(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

The Old Testament saints all died believing in Christ. Though they were all dead, they lived again at the resurrection of Christ. Ever since the resurrection of Christ, no believer has ever died. Believest thou this?

There is no future MASS rapture of people and there is no future mass resurrection. The resurrection started at the resurrection of Christ and is on going and continuous from that point on. The dead in Christ rose with Christ and those that are alive and remain until Christ comes into their life will be caught up with them when we leave this earthly existence. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Joh_8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is no future MASS rapture of people and there is no future mass resurrection.

You are simply CONTRADICTING the Bible with that remark. So either you do not really understand, or you wish to make people believe a lie in order to promote some man-made ideas.

The Resurrection/Rapture is ONE SUPERNATURAL EVENT, in two very brief phases, and it includes all the saints of God. A mass of Christians which no man can number. And it makes a way for Satan and the Antichrist to take total control of all the remaining people on earth.

 

[KJV1611]

You are simply CONTRADICTING the Bible with that remark. So either you do not really understand, or you wish to make people believe a lie in order to promote some man-made ideas.

The Resurrection/Rapture is ONE SUPERNATURAL EVENT, in two very brief phases, and it includes all the saints of God. A mass of Christians which no man can number. And it makes a way for Satan and the Antichrist to take total control of all the remaining people on earth.

I'm talking bible, not dispensational heresy.

 

[KJV1611]

You are simply CONTRADICTING the Bible with that remark. So either you do not really understand, or you wish to make people believe a lie in order to promote some man-made ideas.

The Resurrection/Rapture is ONE SUPERNATURAL EVENT, in two very brief phases, and it includes all the saints of God. A mass of Christians which no man can number. And it makes a way for Satan and the Antichrist to take total control of all the remaining people on earth.

I can only assume by your statement that you don't believe that a Christian never dies as Jesus plainly stated.

 

[Yahshua]

@Yahshua

I remember a few years back, you were asking about how it is that believers never die and why aren't we seeing this today. Well here is the answer.

(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

The Old Testament saints all died believing in Christ. Though they were all dead, they lived again at the resurrection of Christ. Ever since the resurrection of Christ, no believer has ever died. Believest thou this?

There is no future MASS rapture of people and there is no future mass resurrection. The resurrection started at the resurrection of Christ and is on going and continuous from that point on. The dead in Christ rose with Christ and those that are alive and remain until Christ comes into their life will be caught up with them when we leave this earthly existence. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Joh_8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Good memory! I appreciate you remembering that conversation, KJV. I can't believe it has been a few years already. Time is truly flying.

I think we were also talking about John the beloved and the possibility of him not dying a physical death (and why don't we see this promise fulfilled today) if my memory serves me correctly?

If I remember correctly, my working theory was that John 8:51 was tied only to those who Paul said would happen to be "alive and remaining" when the Messiah finally came to transform them; that it wasn't a statement of life in heaven after one's death?

I do still believe in a resurrection/gathering event when the Messiah comes, and so questioned how folks can be alive in heaven now, after death, prior to their future resurrection in the body.

In other words, truly there are many people alive in heaven now, but I believe that's *only* because they were the ones who rose back to life first and then ascended with the Messiah when he rose back to life and ascended...but I don't believe everyone else since then enters into heaven upon their death until the resurrection.

If such is the way it happens, wouldn't it mean their judgment already occurred *prior to* the throne judgment at the end of the age?

And then what about those who weren't believers in the Messiah? If we say they're alive now too (but in Hell) then that means their judgment also occurred ahead of schedule too...and more to the point, how can they have eternal life (in hell) when eternal life is only through faith in the Messiah, whom they don't believe in?

----

Lol as you can see I still have the same concerns, but i appreciate your perspective. I see what you're getting at in your reply. It's almost the same idea behind believers being seated in heavenly places NOW, by faith and so you're saying they're also alive NOW in death.

...but I keep coming back to the original problem created by Adam's sin in the garden: our "mortality" (i.e. the physical death-condition of the body), "and because we physically die, we sin" as Paul says.

And so on and on goes the law of "sin & (physical) death", which had to be broken else why did our sinless Messiah need to resurrect back to physical life before he ascended? He could've just went straight to heaven to rule after his death if the body wasn't needed, right?

These are rhetorical questions. I'm just sharing my thoughts

 

[Blain]

We can all share and delight in anticipation of his coming kingdom. His promise of return and restoration. It's exciting to think of King Jesus putting all things under his feet. The world isn't going to be right until that time.

Regarding this ressurrection/rapture timing issue, who is better prepared?

Someone who is expecting they must endure until his return but is surprised by an early removal from danger?
Or
Someone who is expecting to be removed early from danger but is surprised to find they must endure until his return?

I agree 100% with all of this. tbh even though I hope for us to go home soon I don't expect it but with my poetry writing and the way God works with it how I don't think he just places words on my heart to write it sometimes becomes very prophetic and one theme he has been using my writing for is the wedding and him speaking to people who are weary and worn saying to be ready because he is coming for his bride with great eagerness. As if he himself is filled with such joy and excitement and soothing our weary and worn hearts with his urgency.

Just yesterday I wrote one with him coming in a chariot with great joy and excitement. So maybe it doesn't matter if I expect it soon or not because if these poems really are prophetic then he is coming like lightning bolt for us anyways.

 

[KJV1611]

Good memory! I appreciate you remembering that conversation, KJV. I can't believe it has been a few years already. Time is truly flying.

I remember it well because I was thinking the same thing lol.

I think we were also talking about John the beloved and the possibility of him not dying a physical death (and why don't we see this promise fulfilled today) if my memory serves me correctly?

If I remember correctly, my working theory was that John 8:51 was tied only to those who Paul said would happen to be "alive and remaining" when the Messiah finally came to transform them; that it wasn't a statement of life in heaven after one's death?

Jesus said that those who believe in him will never die, we pass from death (our life before salvation) directly into eternal life. In my opinion that means that we will be like Stephen. The Lord appeared to him just before his BODY died. I believe he was caught up in the air with Jesus at that moment, just before his earthly body was shed. I don't see any way around that, because if he was still in the body at death, then he experienced death. The same thing happened to Enoch. He was translated into heaven without seeing death. I believe he was a foreshadow of those believers who would come after Christs resurrection.

I do still believe in a resurrection/gathering event when the Messiah comes, and so questioned how folks can be alive in heaven now, after death, prior to their future resurrection in the body.

In other words, truly there are many people alive in heaven now, but I believe that's *only* because they were the ones who rose back to life first and then ascended with the Messiah when he rose back to life and ascended...but I don't believe everyone else since then enters into heaven upon their death until the resurrection.

I agree, the Old Testament saints are in heaven right now and I also believe they rose in their resurrection bodies because once the old body has been planted, it comes out of the ground a completely new creation. If you think about it, a literal seed does nothing to contribute to the plant that comes out of it. The seed is just a husk that holds the DNA of the new creation. Well in a believer the DNA for our NEW CREATION is the word of God within us.

It doesn't make sense that people would be in heaven WITHOUT their heavenly bodies. Why would a believer IN HEAVEN need to wait for those that are alive and remain on earth? Jesus paid for their redemption and they don't have an "earnest" body that I'm aware of.

If you look closely at the "rapture" verses they are actually telling us just that. Those who are alive and remain will not PREVENT those that have already died in Christ.

(1Th 4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

If such is the way it happens, wouldn't it mean their judgment already occurred *prior to* the throne judgment at the end of the age?

And then what about those who weren't believers in the Messiah? If we say they're alive now too (but in Hell) then that means their judgment also occurred ahead of schedule too...and more to the point, how can they have eternal life (in hell) when eternal life is only through faith in the Messiah, whom they don't believe in?

You'll have to show me the verses that are making you think the judgement comes later. The bible says it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgement.

----

Lol as you can see I still have the same concerns, but i appreciate your perspective. I see what you're getting at in your reply. It's almost the same idea behind believers being seated in heavenly places NOW, by faith and so you're saying they're also alive NOW in death.

No, not alive NOW in DEATH, the bible says that believers never die period. Those believers were translated from this life directly into the next life...again, like Enoch was.

...but I keep coming back to the original problem created by Adam's sin in the garden: our "mortality" (i.e. the physical death-condition of the body), "and because we physically die, we sin" as Paul says.

And so on and on goes the law of "sin & (physical) death", which had to be broken else why did our sinless Messiah need to resurrect back to physical life before he ascended? He could've just went straight to heaven to rule after his death if the body wasn't needed, right?

These are rhetorical questions. I'm just sharing my thoughts

I appreciate your thoughts, like I said I have thought about those same things myself. Just remember that Jesus conquered death with his death, and that allows us to pass from this life to the next life... we never die according to the bible.

The Old Testament saints had to die because the way was not yet made for them, that's why they HAD to be resurrected. Believers of today don't have to be resurrected in the way that they were because believers never die, we are translated from this life directly into the next life.

 

[cv5]

It seems that you have misunderstood that passage. "Each in his own order" means each one according to the metaphor of a Hebrew harvest which had three phases: (1) the first fruits, (2) the main harvest, and (3) the gleanings.

CHRIST = the first fruits

THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE = the main harvest

THE TRIBULATION SAINTS = the gleanings

This is all a part of "the first resurrection" (which is the resurrection of the just). However, after the Millennium, and over 1,000 years after the Resurrection/Rapture, there will be "the second resurrection" (which is the resurrection of the unjust). This is at the Great White Throne judgment.
However Christ used the metaphors of "the last day" and "the hour" to refer to a period of time which extends well beyond a thousand years. Some people wish to take "the last day" literally as a 24-hour day, but that would be absurd.

The scripture is clear as a bell on this matter. How people can be confused for come to the wrong conclusion is well beyond my ability to comprehend intellectually. On the other hand to comprehended it spiritually is very straightforward.

 

[cv5]

The scripture is clear as a bell on this matter. How people can be confused for come to the wrong conclusion is well beyond my ability to comprehend intellectually. On the other hand to comprehended it spiritually is very straightforward.

Oops sorry it's a misquote from my smart TV microphone typing Algorithm.

The Scripture is clear as a bell on this matter. How people can be confused or come to the wrong conclusion is well be on my ability to comprehend intellectually. On the other hand the reason for such a failure failure to comprehend these matters is, spiritually, very straightforward.

 

[DWR]

^ Here's another post I made some time back (on this):

[quoting]

[...] 1Th5:2-3 (where Paul refers to the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... SAME ONE Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse! )

So, if someone back then (hypothetically) were to "read back this [2nd] letter to Paul" [that he wrote to them, 2Th] and put it in other words, to show they've understood him, they could say,


[in view of v.2's "[don't let anyone convince you] that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]" (JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth)]

v.3 (basically, in effect, saying) - "the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period [v.2's Subject ^ ] [i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" (Matt24:4/Mk13:5)] will NOT be present [to unfold upon the earth] if not shall have come *THE RAPTURE [definite "noun-event" previously mentioned in this context] *FIRST* [(1Th4:13-17, 2Th2:1, and other refs) the text names ONE THING ONLY as *FIRST*] and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."

(his "be revealed" corresponds with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" at the START of the [7] trib yrs [not at its MIDDLE nor its END], same as in other related passages [i.e. the later Rev6:2 ref, and the previous Dan9:27a[26b] ref, etc etc...])


[ * the Greek uses the definite article ('THE'... 'THE DEPARTURE' [i.e. 'our Rapture' event from v.1], in v.3)]

[end quoting that old post]

What are you trying to say?
I don't mean to offend, but I find you post impossible to read the way you add all the extra non essential stuff.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What are you trying to say?
I don't mean to offend, but I find you post impossible to read the way you add all the extra non essential stuff.

---"the trib can't be present till you [and me] are OUTTA HERE *FIRST*..."






Paul's sentence is simple.



It is twisted and wrenched, by many, into something he was not conveying.


[ did I add too many "brackets" that time? ]

 

[DWR]

---"the trib can't be present till you [and me] are OUTTA HERE *FIRST*..."






Paul's sentence is simple.



It is twisted and wrenched, by many, into something he was not conveying.

Not wasn't that much more simple and to the point?
But I disagree.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not wasn't that much more simple and to the point?
But I disagree.

And I am going to guess that the reasons you disagree, are the very things I endeavor to cover by means of my elaborations (among the following, and more):

--the mis-defining of the phrase "the Day of the Lord"

--the improper grammar of reading verse 3 and then reaching clear back OVER AND PAST verse 2, to grab v.1, to define/explain what v.3a is saying

--not acknowledging that the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" (when used in the same CONTEXTS) always refers to the SAME time-period... thus proving in this context that it is indeed an earthly time period of some DURATION (BEFORE His "return")

--by equating the Subject of verse 1 with the [distinct] Subject of verse 2 (and what their actual relation is)

--by dismissing their life setting, and instead viewing them as complete idiots (for supposedly thinking/believing/being convinced by others "[purporting] that the RAPTURE is present/has happened..." ... as though they were under any such delusion. No.)

--by mis-translating the word "IS PRESENT" into something it is NOT saying, like, "is near / at hand"

--by not acknowledging the completely legit definition for "he apostasia" as "THE DEPARTURE" [including geographical/spatial departure... per Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, etc... and considering the REASONS for the otherwise UNNECESSARY "definite article" with this word... WHY it is there]

--etc etc... (the other things commonly done to this context)

 

[Guojing]

I'm talking bible, not dispensational heresy.

The main irony is that he is not even a dispensationalist.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

For those who prefer a simple "line-drawing depiction" :

[toward the bottom of the following post]

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095977

 

[DWR]

And I am going to guess that the reasons you disagree, are the very things I endeavor to cover by means of my elaborations (among the following, and more):

--the mis-defining of the phrase "the Day of the Lord"

--the improper grammar of reading verse 3 and then reaching clear back OVER AND PAST verse 2, to grab v.1, to define/explain what v.3a is saying

--not acknowledging that the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" (when used in the same CONTEXTS) always refers to the SAME time-period... thus proving in this context that it is indeed an earthly time period of some DURATION (BEFORE His "return")

--by equating the Subject of verse 1 with the [distinct] Subject of verse 2 (and what their actual relation is)

--by dismissing their life setting, and instead viewing them as complete idiots (for supposedly thinking/believing/being convinced by others "[purporting] that the RAPTURE is present/has happened..." ... as though they were under any such delusion. No.)

--by mis-translating the word "IS PRESENT" into something it is NOT saying, like, "is near / at hand"

--by not acknowledging the completely legit definition for "he apostasia" as "THE DEPARTURE" [including geographical/spatial departure... per Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, etc... and considering the REASONS for the otherwise UNNECESSARY "definite article" with this word... WHY it is there]

--etc etc... (the other things commonly done to this context)

My disagreement is that of a pre-trib rapture.
If you believe that you are the one who does nor understand Scripture.
But I also know that it is a waste of time to discuss this with any who believe in a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Yahshua]

It doesn't make sense that people would be in heaven WITHOUT their heavenly bodies. Why would a believer IN HEAVEN need to wait for those that are alive and remain on earth? Jesus paid for their redemption and they don't have an "earnest" body that I'm aware of.

Agreed. But I believe only the firstfruits "barley" of the Messiah's resurrection is in heaven right now in resurrected bodies with his like a tithe; at least the 24 elders are there presently. Now, exactly who they are, I have no clue...but I don't believe any other OT saints (like King David for instance...if we can even call him a saint) are in heaven just yet because of the passage below.


Hebrews 11:13-14 says (about all the patriarchs of the faith)...
13 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

14 Now those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.


The passage then goes through example after example of the faith of many OT saints that's proven through trials, all so "that they might gain a better resurrection." (Hebrews 11:35), with the chapter concluding...


Hebrews 11:39-40
"39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."


So this chapter tells me that:

1. The resurrected body is the promise tied to the heavenly country/city

2. Many of the OT saints - as of the writing of Hebrews 11 - STILL hadn't received this promise

3. They can't receive this promise "without us" (believers who are "alive and who remain" at the coming of the Messiah) during the larger "wheat" harvest

...We're then told to "run our race" with patience, in Hebrews 12. So if we take this chapter and 1Thess 4:15 together, it's saying to me that neither group (the majority of OT saints and today's living & dead believers) will receive their reward without the other. Everyone gets the promise at the same time during the 1st resurrection.

You'll have to show me the verses that are making you think the judgement comes later. The bible says it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgement.

...well my point above brings me to my point about the judgment coming at the end of the age (and about where those who didn't originally believe in the Messiah to achieve the 1st resurrection are NOW until this judgment). The verse I'm referring to is Revelation 20: the Great White Throne Judgment and the opened books as all are judged based on their works.


Revelation 20:11 [brackets mine]
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and [grave] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Now in the context of events detailed in Revelation, this is would be the 2nd resurrection that's prophesied the happen after the 1000 year reign and after satan is cast into the lake of fire. This group's destination isn't determined until after their judgment at the end of all things...and not everyone in this group is destined for burning judgment because the passage uses the word "whosoever" instead of a word like "all".


Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Truly, I believe that after a person's death comes their judgment...but if I put Revelation 20 together with Hebrews 9, I think the writer is simply mentioning the "order of operation" in Hebrews 9 and not specifically a "chronology of events". In other words, they're simply saying judgment is "next" for a person who dies, but *when the lot they fall within resurrects* (either the 1st resurrection or the 2nd resurrection).

...because here's the issues I think we run into otherwise; where are these dead folks NOW who never believed in the Messiah when they died and who never did good works?

Tradition would suggest they are immediately judged to go into hell as soon as they die...but then Revelation 20 explains that these same folks will be resurrected...then judged (AGAIN) for the things they did in their lives...and then sent BACK into suffering for all eternity as immortal beings(??)

No this sounds like double jeopardy. The Almighty is a fair judge, even with criminals, but this scenario would have Him trying criminals twice for the same sins they committed while living. Besides...being judged twice contradicts what Hebrews 9 says.

See what I mean?

 

[Truth7t7]

And yet more events are carried out after Rev 10:6. The interpretation is about the prophesies being fulfilled. All that God had prophesied before concerning these things was being completed. There would be no more delay. It was all being wrapped up.

Thanks for the response

There isnt events beyond Rev 10:6-7 below, the 7th angel/Trump is the end of this world, also seen in a parallel teachings in Revelation 11:15, and seen in the 7th vial in Rev 16:17 "It Is Done"!

All verse below have one thing in common, "The End of This World"

The book of Revelation is seen in parallel teachings of same events, its not taught in chronological order as dispensationalism "Falsely" teaches.

Revelation 10:6-7KJV
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:17KJV
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.