Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

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Are you a Trinitarian, and can you defend the doctrine?

  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, and I can defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 37 63.8%
  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, but I cannot defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • No, I deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Votes: 16 27.6%
  • I don't know if the Trinity is true or false.

    Votes: 3 5.2%

  • Total voters
    58
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
464
83
The WORD and the WISDOM were both begat. Why don't you think the Holy Spirit is God's Son like you do the WORD?

Literally from the Church Fathers:

God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.

They claim both the WORD and WISDOM are begat by God!
 
Jun 6, 2020
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Wrong concept.
The Father has exalted the Son Above himself.

Says so in hebrews. Look it up.

" but of the Son He (the father) says thy throne o God is forever and ever"
The Father has never exalted anyone above himself.
 
Jun 6, 2020
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Mental pursuit via ignoring my verses.

That is not systematic theology.

The trinity is arrived at by incorporating...not through omission.
I referred you to Trinitarian commentary on the verse which I am in agreement with.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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If that's what they believed then why was the doctrine not established at that time rather than 500 years later? Trinity is not part of Judaism and never has been, so if they are bringing in new teachings why did no one make this crystal clear?
Ignatius of Antioch:


Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and spiritual. —Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 13 [SR]

—————————————-
After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water…. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. —Didache 7:1

——————————————-
For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen. —Martyrdom of Polycarp 14:3

———————————————
Theophilus of Antioch:

...the three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity, God, his Word, and his Wisdom. —To Autolycus 2:15


——————————————-
Tertullian:

And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. —Against Praxeas 2

——————————————
Hippolytus:

The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after he rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Matt 28:19) And by this he showed that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through the Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did and the Spirit manifested. —Against Noetus

———————————————————-
Origen:

For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages.... It seems right to inquire into the reason why he who is 'born again through God' to salvation has need of both Father and Son and Holy Spirit and will not obtain salvation apart from the entire Trinity, and why it is impossible to become partaker of the Father or the Son without the Holy Spirit. In discussing these points it will undoubtedly be necessary to describe the activity which is peculiar to the Holy Spirit and that which is peculiar to the Father and Son.

—————————————
Novatian:

For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed to be God who is of God…. Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God. —Treatise on the Trinity

————————————————
Dionysius:

Next, I may reasonably turn to those who divide and cut to pieces and destroy that most sacred doctrine of the Church of God, the Divine Monarchy, making it as it were three powers and partive subsistences and godheads. I am told that some among you who are catechists and teachers of the Divine Word, take the lead in this tenet, who are diametrically opposed, so to speak, to Sabellius' opininons; for he blasphemously says that the Son is the Father, and Father the Son, but they in some sort preach three Gods, as dividing the sacred Unity into three subsistences foreign to each other and utterly separate. For it must be that with the God of the Universe, the Divine Word is united, and the Holy Ghost must repose and habitate in God; thus in one as in a summit, I mean the God of the Universe, must the Divine Trinity be gathered up and brought together....Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine Unity...Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. 'For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and 'I am in the Father, and the Father in me'. For thus both the Divine Trinity and the holy preaching of the Monarchy will be preserved. —'De decretis Nic. syn.26




I have no clue where you’re pulling this 500 years from. Here are several ECF’s positing clear unmistakable Trinitarian language. But keep right on going headlong into John 8:24 if you must.
 
Jun 6, 2020
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Jesus is God according to the bible

Not a lesser god.
Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, according to the Bible.

Jesus is called elohim/theos. I agree that he is not ”a lesser god”.

I ask again, is it your contention that his God is the Trinity.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
In john 1 Jesus is declared the creator.

The trinity
God the father
God the son
God the Holy Spirit
That's not what John says, it says the "word" the word may be in Jesus but it is also in everything.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
Ignatius of Antioch:


Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and spiritual. —Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 13 [SR]

—————————————-
After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water…. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. —Didache 7:1

——————————————-
For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen. —Martyrdom of Polycarp 14:3

———————————————
Theophilus of Antioch:

...the three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity, God, his Word, and his Wisdom. —To Autolycus 2:15


——————————————-
Tertullian:

And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. —Against Praxeas 2

——————————————
Hippolytus:

The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after he rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Matt 28:19) And by this he showed that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through the Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did and the Spirit manifested. —Against Noetus

———————————————————-
Origen:

For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages.... It seems right to inquire into the reason why he who is 'born again through God' to salvation has need of both Father and Son and Holy Spirit and will not obtain salvation apart from the entire Trinity, and why it is impossible to become partaker of the Father or the Son without the Holy Spirit. In discussing these points it will undoubtedly be necessary to describe the activity which is peculiar to the Holy Spirit and that which is peculiar to the Father and Son.

—————————————
Novatian:

For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed to be God who is of God…. Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God. —Treatise on the Trinity

————————————————
Dionysius:

Next, I may reasonably turn to those who divide and cut to pieces and destroy that most sacred doctrine of the Church of God, the Divine Monarchy, making it as it were three powers and partive subsistences and godheads. I am told that some among you who are catechists and teachers of the Divine Word, take the lead in this tenet, who are diametrically opposed, so to speak, to Sabellius' opininons; for he blasphemously says that the Son is the Father, and Father the Son, but they in some sort preach three Gods, as dividing the sacred Unity into three subsistences foreign to each other and utterly separate. For it must be that with the God of the Universe, the Divine Word is united, and the Holy Ghost must repose and habitate in God; thus in one as in a summit, I mean the God of the Universe, must the Divine Trinity be gathered up and brought together....Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine Unity...Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. 'For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and 'I am in the Father, and the Father in me'. For thus both the Divine Trinity and the holy preaching of the Monarchy will be preserved. —'De decretis Nic. syn.26




I have no clue where you’re pulling this 500 years from. Here are several ECF’s positing clear unmistakable Trinitarian language. But keep right on going headlong into John 8:24 if you must.
The 500 plus years is the process it took to workout all the problems with the doctrine.

Tertullian and origen were not trinitarian they both believed the Father to be greater than the Son just as Jesus taught of Himself.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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There is only one Most High however there are many elohim. Less confusion. It's also a Jewish idea that has to do with respecting the name, another idea I support.
Clarify your remarks. Are you claiming that Jesus isn't Yahweh?

I think what you are saying is that Jesus is some lesser "god".

It is true that "elohim" can refer to different beings, including angels.

However, to claim that Jesus isn't Yahweh is a heresy.

The Father is Yahweh.
The Son is Yahweh.
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh.
Yahweh is one being or essence.
These three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are coessential and coeternal. They share the same essence and have existed together since eternity.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
I want to be wrong about this. It goes against my upbringing and what I was taught. But Jesus confirmed the Scribe claiming God is 1 person. Mark 12 is rather clear evidence. I trust the BIBLE over a CREED for my Salvation any day!
You would think the Mark passage would be a game set match on the subject. It's IMO the best scripture that Jesus did not support the Trinity doctrine. I have only seen one person try and explain it and all they could do was give a long filibuster dodge which never addressed the problem anyway.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
Clarify your remarks. Are you claiming that Jesus isn't Yahweh?

I think what you are saying is that Jesus is some lesser "god".

It is true that "elohim" can refer to different beings, including angels.

However, to claim that Jesus isn't Yahweh is a heresy.

The Father is Yahweh.
The Son is Yahweh.
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh.
Yahweh is one being or essence.
These three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are coessential and coeternal. They share the same essence and have existed together since eternity.
We are not allowed to make statements that would suggest Jesus is not the Most High. It's against the rules and gets you banned. Is this an honest mistake or you trying to set me up to be banned.
Being called a heretic doesn't mean anything to me, the nazerens were called heretics and that was the sect of Jesus.
 
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
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83
You would think the Mark passage would be a game set match on the subject. It's IMO the best scripture that Jesus did not support the Trinity doctrine. I have only seen one person try and explain it and all they could do was give a long filibuster dodge which never addressed the problem anyway.


AMEN!

The Scribe calls God HE and HIM which indicates a Being. He specifies God is ONE and no other is beside Him. To have 3 Persons, they would be beside the ONE Person of God whom the Scribe is speaking about.

But the real kicker is Christ Himself. I absolutely believe Christ is the WORD! That means He is not the SON, but a direct internal/external Part of the One Person of God. I believe like the Church Fathers explained that the WORD and WISDOM were both BEGAT not as offspring, but for God's Holy Purpose.

But nonetheless, Christ, WHOM I believe is the WORD, therefore is GOD, confirmed that God is indeed ONE PERSON.

Had the Scribe been wrong, Christ, WHOM is God, would not hesitate to correct the Scribe, because He is GOD and made the Scribe. We are talking CREATOR to His Creation. No fear, no reason to do anything but to tell the Scribe the TRUTH.

And what does the CREATOR do to His Creation?

He confirms God is ONE PERSON.

To me, to ignore this fact reveals layers of mental issues, because you have believed a CREED over the Word of GOD and GOD HIMSELF!
 
Apr 5, 2020
2,273
464
83
AMEN!

The Scribe calls God HE and HIM which indicates a Being. He specifies God is ONE and no other is beside Him. To have 3 Persons, they would be beside the ONE Person of God whom the Scribe is speaking about.

But the real kicker is Christ Himself. I absolutely believe Christ is the WORD! That means He is not the SON, but a direct internal/external Part of the One Person of God. I believe like the Church Fathers explained that the WORD and WISDOM were both BEGAT not as offspring, but for God's Holy Purpose.

But nonetheless, Christ, WHOM I believe is the WORD, therefore is GOD, confirmed that God is indeed ONE PERSON.

Had the Scribe been wrong, Christ, WHOM is God, would not hesitate to correct the Scribe, because He is GOD and made the Scribe. We are talking CREATOR to His Creation. No fear, no reason to do anything but to tell the Scribe the TRUTH.

And what does the CREATOR do to His Creation?

He confirms God is ONE PERSON.

To me, to ignore this fact reveals layers of mental issues, because you have believed a CREED over the Word of GOD and GOD HIMSELF!


And what makes this post ^ about Mark 12 and Jesus confirming God is ONE Person more Valuable:

This verse here:
John 14:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

So in reality, this was the Father talking to the Scribe, not Christ!

So the Father is confirming God is ONE PERSON!
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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The 500 plus years is the process it took to workout all the problems with the doctrine.

Tertullian and origen were not trinitarian they both believed the Father to be greater than the Son just as Jesus taught of Himself.
John 8:24. Keep it up, you’re doing a fine job!
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
We are not allowed to make statements that would suggest Jesus is not the Most High. It's against the rules and gets you banned. Is this an honest mistake or you trying to set me up to be banned.
Being called a heretic doesn't mean anything to me, the nazerens were called heretics and that was the sect of Jesus.
Is Jesus God?


Yes

Or

No

You and @biker need to belly up to the bar and lay your cards out for all of us to see.