Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??
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In the Name of the Lord Jesus, Many are still not understanding that a MINISTER or SERVANT in the Chruch carry many task or WORK. we all know that Paul was an apostle. and many ends right there. no, Paul was a preacher, teacher, prophet, and Pastor/Pastor.
Fact #1. Paul as a Preacher, 1 Timothy 2:7 "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."
Fact #2. Paul as Teacher, 1 Corinthians 4:17 "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church."
Fact #3. Paul a Prophet, 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
there it is, the Gift of prophecy Paul is a prophet
Fact #4. Paul is a Pastor/Bishop, same verse, 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
UNDERSTANDING, and KNOWLEDGE? yes, the Pastoral Gift. supportive scripture, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding." there is the Pastor... Paul, all KNOWLEDGE, and all UNDERSTANDING. the Pastor is a GIFT, and not an office, as said, it is the very first gift listen in 1 Corinthians 12:8. to feed the flock of God.
and God "SET"/Ordain all of them, yes, including "TEACHERS", scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
and that word, "SET", is the Greek,
G5087 τίθημι tithemi (tiy'-thee-miy) v.
θέω theo (the'-ō) [an alternate in certain tenses]
1. to place.
2. (properly) to lay in a passive or horizontal posture.
{in the widest application, literally and figuratively; differs from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate}
[a prolonged form of a primary theo theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)]
KJV: + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down
this same word is used in the ordination of Paul as a preacher, 1 Timothy 2:7 "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."
PICJAG,
101G
Fact #1. Paul as a Preacher, 1 Timothy 2:7 "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."Fact #2. Paul as Teacher, 1 Corinthians 4:17 "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church."
Fact #3. Paul a Prophet, 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
there it is, the Gift of prophecy Paul is a prophet
Fact #4. Paul is a Pastor/Bishop, same verse, 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
UNDERSTANDING, and KNOWLEDGE? yes, the Pastoral Gift. supportive scripture, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding." there is the Pastor... Paul, all KNOWLEDGE, and all UNDERSTANDING. the Pastor is a GIFT, and not an office, as said, it is the very first gift listen in 1 Corinthians 12:8. to feed the flock of God.
and God "SET"/Ordain all of them, yes, including "TEACHERS", scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
and that word, "SET", is the Greek,
G5087 τίθημι tithemi (tiy'-thee-miy) v.
θέω theo (the'-ō) [an alternate in certain tenses]
1. to place.
2. (properly) to lay in a passive or horizontal posture.
{in the widest application, literally and figuratively; differs from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate}
[a prolonged form of a primary theo theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)]
KJV: + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down
this same word is used in the ordination of Paul as a preacher, 1 Timothy 2:7 "Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."PICJAG,
101G
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Women are to remain silent in the church, let alone being a Bishop/Pastor/Deacon
You aren't changing Gods words below, or my opinion of them, simple
1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
You aren't changing Gods words below, or my opinion of them, simple
1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
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You might need to read this more than once...
We have gone down quite the rabbit hole, challenging many premises along the way. But to bring things back to the reason we are here...
When I exhaustively defined the connective conjunction ("for") of 1 Tim 2:12 and 1 Tim 2:13-14, the conversation went in this direction:
I then went on to see if you have to understand commandments from God in order to accept them. I chose a relevant commandment to this discussion (to respond to your hermeneutic and bring us back to the topic at hand):
You have not responded to this.
Non-Sequitur. But I decided to consider the challenge (still considering it)...
As a reminder, you wanted this to remain Biblical and without speculation:
I agreed to the tone of conversation (after all, this is the "Biblical discussions page") :
You "liked" this comment, but then removed your "like" for some reason.
Paul was a master of the Law. I am sure he had better insight and was able to point out principles that you may never identify. I will let you agree with me on Paul's superior knowledge of the Law. (again)
...who knows...maybe The Holy Spirit pointed something out that Paul didn't even know about the Law (again, which can mean the torah or the tenak). The possible explanations are endless. But regardless of the explanation, we do have to deal with the text.
You don't have to accept anyone's explanation. You have to accept what has been written...unless...you have evidence that what is written is not, in fact, "the commandment of the Lord". Let's see if you have any evidence...
;
After all this, I have 3 things to say (to end this rabbit trail and return to the original subject):
1. The linchpin of your position (that 1 Corinthians 14:4-35 is something Paul is quoting and not "the commandment of the Lord") hangs on an unconfirmed suspicion. It's irrelevant and incredibly insulting to the Holy Spirit.
2. Every time I pin your position down and force you to deal with the simple, obvious Scripture (indicated by the green text above), your hermeneutic is that something has to make sense to you before you can accept it. (hence the red text above). My friend, the Holy Spirit will never teach you anything new if you close your mind this way.
3. For a moment, let's ignore that Paul connected authority with origination more than once (1 Cor 11), and explain to me the definition of the connecting conjunction "for" between 1 Tim 2:12 and 1 Tim 2:13-14. Your "explanation" (post# 943) contains no exegetical analysis of the word "for". It may not seem logical to you (because you don't agree with the obvious conclusion), but what Paul says in 1 Tim 2 is true, just as are the rest of His inspired writings. Every word is true, including the word "for"...
Then go ahead...Tell me what "for" means, contextually in 1 Tim 2:12-14.
We have gone down quite the rabbit hole, challenging many premises along the way. But to bring things back to the reason we are here...
When I exhaustively defined the connective conjunction ("for") of 1 Tim 2:12 and 1 Tim 2:13-14, the conversation went in this direction:
I then went on to see if you have to understand commandments from God in order to accept them. I chose a relevant commandment to this discussion (to respond to your hermeneutic and bring us back to the topic at hand):
You have not responded to this.
Non-Sequitur. But I decided to consider the challenge (still considering it)...
As a reminder, you wanted this to remain Biblical and without speculation:
I agreed to the tone of conversation (after all, this is the "Biblical discussions page") :
You "liked" this comment, but then removed your "like" for some reason.
Paul was a master of the Law. I am sure he had better insight and was able to point out principles that you may never identify. I will let you agree with me on Paul's superior knowledge of the Law. (again)
...who knows...maybe The Holy Spirit pointed something out that Paul didn't even know about the Law (again, which can mean the torah or the tenak). The possible explanations are endless. But regardless of the explanation, we do have to deal with the text.
You don't have to accept anyone's explanation. You have to accept what has been written...unless...you have evidence that what is written is not, in fact, "the commandment of the Lord". Let's see if you have any evidence...
;
After all this, I have 3 things to say (to end this rabbit trail and return to the original subject):
1. The linchpin of your position (that 1 Corinthians 14:4-35 is something Paul is quoting and not "the commandment of the Lord") hangs on an unconfirmed suspicion. It's irrelevant and incredibly insulting to the Holy Spirit.
2. Every time I pin your position down and force you to deal with the simple, obvious Scripture (indicated by the green text above), your hermeneutic is that something has to make sense to you before you can accept it. (hence the red text above). My friend, the Holy Spirit will never teach you anything new if you close your mind this way.
3. For a moment, let's ignore that Paul connected authority with origination more than once (1 Cor 11), and explain to me the definition of the connecting conjunction "for" between 1 Tim 2:12 and 1 Tim 2:13-14. Your "explanation" (post# 943) contains no exegetical analysis of the word "for". It may not seem logical to you (because you don't agree with the obvious conclusion), but what Paul says in 1 Tim 2 is true, just as are the rest of His inspired writings. Every word is true, including the word "for"...
Then go ahead...Tell me what "for" means, contextually in 1 Tim 2:12-14.
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When a woman teaches the Truth to someone who has never believed and they receive Eternal Life . . . this is a wonderful and glorious thing to God!
I agree with Christ, that there is neither male nor female (in Him). And since this is True, especially because the Law had been lifted from all of Christ's Children . . . I have always found it perplexing that Paul would teach that women ought to be silent in "church."
I agree with Christ, that there is neither male nor female (in Him). And since this is True, especially because the Law had been lifted from all of Christ's Children . . . I have always found it perplexing that Paul would teach that women ought to be silent in "church."
There is a very historical reason why he said that. Women of that era were generally not allowed to learn, to read, or other things to enrich their lives. Christianity broke that taboo.
Every Jewish person knew that disciples to a rabbi were to "learn in silence, or more properly, "in quietness." To be a disciple, you had to honour the system, which started with learning in silence.
When women were set free to learn, Paul honoured them by saying they were "to learn in silence." In other words, he was saying, " learn like a disciple to a rabbi!" In silence. So sad people don't understand the context, and the fact that Paul was encouraging women to learn at all. This really was the beginning of the new covenant, which set people free to follow Christ!
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Your response is a diversion from Gods words of truth below.
The Holy Spirit, who is the author of the inspired scripture, teaches women are to be silent in the church, and subjected to their husband in learning at home, they are (Commanded) to be obedient
Its confusion and a shame for women to speak in the church, plain, clear, easy to understand.
It appears the Holy Spirit didnt attend the women's lib movement events and conference, and Gods words aren't going to change anytime soon
1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
The Holy Spirit, who is the author of the inspired scripture, teaches women are to be silent in the church, and subjected to their husband in learning at home, they are (Commanded) to be obedient
Its confusion and a shame for women to speak in the church, plain, clear, easy to understand.
It appears the Holy Spirit didnt attend the women's lib movement events and conference, and Gods words aren't going to change anytime soon
1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
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No. There is nothing perplexing about it. Paul ties it right back to the fact that Eve was deceived.
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer [allow] not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Tim 2:11-14)
A superficial reading might lead someone to conclude that when Paul says "I" this is his personal opinion. But Peter tells us very clearly that all of Paul's epistles are Scripture, so it is the Holy Spirit who directed Paul to make this statement as it is written.
Also, when Paul says that "Adam was first formed" it implies that the woman was created for the man, not vice versa. And that is also why Christian women are commanded to cover their heads during worship (1 Cor 11), to indicate that they are under the authority of their husbands. These things are not being taught in many churches.
Eve's disobedience brought a curse on women, and a part of that curse was (1) they were to be in submission to their own husbands and (2) they were forbidden to preach, teach, or usurp authority within the local church, since that would give them authority over men. Evidently they would also be subjected to great pain during childbirth.
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Gen 3:16)
It is primarily because of "Evangelical Feminism" that women began to push for inclusion in the leadership of churches, and many men did not have the guts to say that is totally unacceptable to God.
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer [allow] not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Tim 2:11-14)
A superficial reading might lead someone to conclude that when Paul says "I" this is his personal opinion. But Peter tells us very clearly that all of Paul's epistles are Scripture, so it is the Holy Spirit who directed Paul to make this statement as it is written.
Also, when Paul says that "Adam was first formed" it implies that the woman was created for the man, not vice versa. And that is also why Christian women are commanded to cover their heads during worship (1 Cor 11), to indicate that they are under the authority of their husbands. These things are not being taught in many churches.
Eve's disobedience brought a curse on women, and a part of that curse was (1) they were to be in submission to their own husbands and (2) they were forbidden to preach, teach, or usurp authority within the local church, since that would give them authority over men. Evidently they would also be subjected to great pain during childbirth.
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Gen 3:16)
It is primarily because of "Evangelical Feminism" that women began to push for inclusion in the leadership of churches, and many men did not have the guts to say that is totally unacceptable to God.
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And that is NOT a comment rooted in Scriptures.
PASTOR/SHEPARD is the term used with the spiritual leader, or shepherd, of local churches, often used interchangeably with the words "bishop," "elder," and "overseer" used in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9.
Ephesians 4:11 mentions "pastors" (KJV/NIV) or "shepherds" (ESV) as a role for those who serve as leaders in the church.
In 1 Peter 5:1-3, we find the three terms bishop, elder, and overseer used interchangeably to describe the work of the spiritual shepherds of a church:.........
"So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock."
The Bible clearly speaks of the important calling and requirements of elders in Scripture. Elders are synonymous with pastors in the New Testament, with the word "pastor" emphasizing the shepherding role of the calling. It is a role to equip God's people for maturity and works of service and demands the highest integrity and an attitude of service to others.
PASTOR/SHEPARD is the term used with the spiritual leader, or shepherd, of local churches, often used interchangeably with the words "bishop," "elder," and "overseer" used in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9.
Ephesians 4:11 mentions "pastors" (KJV/NIV) or "shepherds" (ESV) as a role for those who serve as leaders in the church.
In 1 Peter 5:1-3, we find the three terms bishop, elder, and overseer used interchangeably to describe the work of the spiritual shepherds of a church:.........
"So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock."
The Bible clearly speaks of the important calling and requirements of elders in Scripture. Elders are synonymous with pastors in the New Testament, with the word "pastor" emphasizing the shepherding role of the calling. It is a role to equip God's people for maturity and works of service and demands the highest integrity and an attitude of service to others.
You are very welcome.
Actually there is NO debate to be done at all.
God said in 1 Tinothy 3:1-2............
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"
The Word of God is not open for debate.
It is either accepted or it is rejected.
The choice is yours.
Actually there is NO debate to be done at all.
God said in 1 Tinothy 3:1-2............
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"
The Word of God is not open for debate.
It is either accepted or it is rejected.
The choice is yours.
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