Are Christians more accepting of charlatans then we should be?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#21
A lady in my zoom group meeting went to Hillsong for the first time not too long ago. She said from the moment she walked in to the time she left she felt constantly hounded for money. She said she would never go back.
They have nice music but it seems like it is more of a concert, an entertainment, whether it is or not, only God knows. Most mega churches are run like a business. Quite disappointing. Give me a small church or homegroup that actually cares anytime over a mega church.
there is a great sin in worshiping the "worship" instead of worshiping the one who is to be Worshiped
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
13,952
7,865
113
#22
Just got off the phone with a friend who had a similar experience, but in a small church across the street from him, even after a wonderful Spirit filled experience.
So important to seek where He would have us go for fellowship and service in His name, and not lean on our own understanding.
blessings
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#23
Let's just say I'm not a big fan of paid preachers.

To answer the OP question, I'd say that since "Faith believes all things", then perhaps if whatever is said appears to be positive and uplifting and you believe it and it turns out to be a lie, that's not on you, but them. It no more invalidates your faith than it invalidates the love you had for a person who abandoned you. Your love was real, and theirs was fake.

We don't pay our pastor, nor do we muzzle the OX. Our Pastor works and earns the right to a living to support his family and his needs are met.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
13,952
7,865
113
#24
Our Methodist churches turned it into a job with retirement, and quite preaching the gospel in the 70's.
 

goanna

New member
Jan 28, 2021
20
7
3
#25
We don't pay our pastor, nor do we muzzle the OX. Our Pastor works and earns the right to a living to support his family and his needs are met.
That's good. I just think every man should get enough Bible in him so he can preach. As long as it's clear and from the Bible, then it shouldn't require a seminary degree to get it right. The apostles were "unlettered" and "ordinary" and they did alright. It also makes him that much more conscious to get in line with scripture. It would be hard to get up there and give a talk about parents raising up their children according to the Bible, when you weren't doing it yourself.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#26
Hard to generalise but new believers especially younger ones often get sucked into cults, like hillsong. its not they accept it, is just that those in leadership are wolves in sheeps clothing and pretty cunning at fleecing the flock.
why did you go there anyway?

No other fellowship around, or everyone else was? Am glad you saw the light and left. Hillsong has its hooks into a lot of churches, that arent even hillsong branded, but they may play hillsong music, and every time they play apparently they will get royalties of some sort from music CD or download sales. If its that profitable, not sure why they need to ask for more money on top of that.

pastors living the life of riley remind me of the boss saying if you work hard and earn enough, he will buy himself another lamborghini.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,166
30,312
113
#27
Let's just say I'm not a big fan of paid preachers.
“The worker deserves his wages.”

I would think it comes down to what those wages are.

For instance, some preachers (televangelists, for example)
believe they need a personal jet. Is this justified? Maybe it is,
and maybe it isn't. Each case needs to be handled individually.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#28
That's good. I just think every man should get enough Bible in him so he can preach. As long as it's clear and from the Bible, then it shouldn't require a seminary degree to get it right. The apostles were "unlettered" and "ordinary" and they did alright. It also makes him that much more conscious to get in line with scripture. It would be hard to get up there and give a talk about parents raising up their children according to the Bible, when you weren't doing it yourself.
getting enough bible in you doesn't mean one is called to be or hold the office of a Pastor. That is a gift to the church as 1cor 12 says
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
#29
getting enough bible in you doesn't mean one is called to be or hold the office of a Pastor. That is a gift to the church as 1cor 12 says
Ephesians 4. 'Pastor' does not show up in the gift lists in I Corinthians 12.

But preaching and being a pastor are not the same thing. Usually 'preach' in the NT shows up in evangelistic contexts. Hebrews 5 says, 'for when for the time ye ought to be teachers....' One can preach or teach without being a pastor. I Corinthians 14:26 says '...every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine...Let all things be done unto edifying."
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
13,952
7,865
113
#30
The first century church met in each others homes, Jesus instruction to those who are His disciples is to heal, restore, cast out and preach.
Constantine built a "church" hierarchy based on the Roman model of government, not what was originally intended.
best wishes
 

goanna

New member
Jan 28, 2021
20
7
3
#31
When someone asks me about being called, or not hearing the calling, I quote "He who has ears, let him hear." - Mt. 13:9

"In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" Hebrews 5:12

:)

Granted that not everyone has the bandwidth to serve full time, but many hands make the load light.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#32
those pesky Romans. Not the best example of govt!
All that luxury and extravagance, (for the very elite) Nero fiddling while Rome burned.

as far as I know, pastors arent paid wages, They have a stipend, or salary.
it is different from wages. wages are fixed and paid weekly or fortnightly and are usually paid per hour.

How much does a pastor get paid?? I dont know if they ever mentioned getting $18 per hour which is the minimum wage.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#33
When someone asks me about being called, or not hearing the calling, I quote "He who has ears, let him hear." - Mt. 13:9

"In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" Hebrews 5:12

:)

Granted that not everyone has the bandwidth to serve full time, but many hands make the load light.
the call to salvation is one to all, the gift of equipping of the saints as 1cor 12 states is in the gifting of apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers
 

goanna

New member
Jan 28, 2021
20
7
3
#34
There's some dangers in the paid preacher thing.

1. You could be offloading your responsibility to develop and exercise your own Christian conscience.
2. If you're the preacher, you might not give counsel when it's due, because you're in fear for your job.
3. You could get to thinking more of yourself than is necessary to think.

I'm not saying it can't be done right, and I'm sure many do, but there are dangers.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#35
When someone asks me about being called, or not hearing the calling, I quote "He who has ears, let him hear." - Mt. 13:9

"In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" Hebrews 5:12

:)

Granted that not everyone has the bandwidth to serve full time, but many hands make the load light.
Too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the stew.

Any man who comes to pastor a church should be willing to do so without respect of salary. Yes if the congregation can afford a full time pastor they should pay an appropriate salary. Salary should never be a condition of accepting a pastorate. It is God who supplies and a man with a heart to pastor knows his pay is controlled by God in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

AgapeShellArt

Active member
Nov 21, 2018
156
128
43
#36
I do feel that Christians are more tolerant of narcissists and charlatans than they should be.
I don't know why though!

Why is it that some Christians allow themselves to be milked in the name of "keeping the peace".
Stuff that, I'd rather speak up.
Fear?

That's why I don't speak up, but I do walk away and warn my brethren by telling them my personal experience. I don't always talk to the offender because I don't want to invite abuse
 

goanna

New member
Jan 28, 2021
20
7
3
#37
BTW even if you do have a paid preacher, he should be willing to take counsel.

I'm thinking of people like Apollos.

Acts 18:24-26

24 Now there came to Ephesus a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria. He was an eloquent man, well-versed in the scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord; and he spoke with burning enthusiasm and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.

Nothing there shows he took his gifts as making him above correction.

Paul too, had to counsel Peter...

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? - Galatians 2:14

Peter could have said "Yeah? Where were you? We were with Jesus and you were persecuting", but he didn't.

No one is above counsel by anyone.

Think of Naaman in 2 Kings
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Kings 5&version=NIV

Naaman almost didn't listen to counsel.
 

goanna

New member
Jan 28, 2021
20
7
3
#38
My own problem in taking counsel is that I have a spirit that likes to battle. I get to thinking I'm right, I can defend my position verbally, and then I can go away thinking I'm right, when I'm just good at arguing my position.

An old cowboy preacher I know told me once that no one wants the sword of the spirit used on them, but handed to them.

That's hard to remember.

The other thing is that everyone has a different conscience and we're going to differ on how we view things. You want peace, and you want to grow, but knowing what you can talk about with people and what you can't talk about with people can be a problem. You may be knocking, asking and seeking, but the other person may not feel there's any further need for knocking, asking and seeking and they just feel you're stirring things up. Maybe you are? Maybe I am. It's a continuing problem, and it can be one if you're preaching to an audience. You want them to grow, you want to grow, but you can't "make it grow", because you have to keep reminding yourself that you can only plant and water, but God is the one who makes it grow. (Plus you have to be sure what you think is planting and watering is really the word of God, and not just some crazy idea you have)
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#39
Too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the stew.

Any man who comes to pastor a church should be willing to do so without respect of salary. Yes if the congregation can afford a full time pastor they should pay an appropriate salary. Salary should never be a condition of accepting a pastorate. It is God who supplies and a man with a heart to pastor knows his pay is controlled by God in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
you know nothing of pastoring The person is worth the labor even slaves are to receive a just payment.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
113
#40
My own problem in taking counsel is that I have a spirit that likes to battle. I get to thinking I'm right, I can defend my position verbally, and then I can go away thinking I'm right, when I'm just good at arguing my position.

An old cowboy preacher I know told me once that no one wants the sword of the spirit used on them, but handed to them.

That's hard to remember.

The other thing is that everyone has a different conscience and we're going to differ on how we view things. You want peace, and you want to grow, but knowing what you can talk about with people and what you can't talk about with people can be a problem. You may be knocking, asking and seeking, but the other person may not feel there's any further need for knocking, asking and seeking and they just feel you're stirring things up. Maybe you are? Maybe I am. It's a continuing problem, and it can be one if you're preaching to an audience. You want them to grow, you want to grow, but you can't "make it grow", because you have to keep reminding yourself that you can only plant and water, but God is the one who makes it grow. (Plus you have to be sure what you think is planting and watering is really the word of God, and not just some crazy idea you have)
that sounds more like the spirit of debate instead of edifying. wanting to be right and not wanting to do the work or support it in the local church setting. it is known as being a rebel. The most successful Pastors worked with and for other pastors who held to the word of God. Today many get the feeling hurt and come to church to look to correct the " Pastor" or cause division because they think they know more. it is an excellent display of immaturity.