there is a great sin in worshiping the "worship" instead of worshiping the one who is to be Worshiped
Are Christians more accepting of charlatans then we should be?
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there is a great sin in worshiping the "worship" instead of worshiping the one who is to be Worshiped
Just got off the phone with a friend who had a similar experience, but in a small church across the street from him, even after a wonderful Spirit filled experience.
So important to seek where He would have us go for fellowship and service in His name, and not lean on our own understanding.
blessings
So important to seek where He would have us go for fellowship and service in His name, and not lean on our own understanding.
blessings
We don't pay our pastor, nor do we muzzle the OX. Our Pastor works and earns the right to a living to support his family and his needs are met.
That's good. I just think every man should get enough Bible in him so he can preach. As long as it's clear and from the Bible, then it shouldn't require a seminary degree to get it right. The apostles were "unlettered" and "ordinary" and they did alright. It also makes him that much more conscious to get in line with scripture. It would be hard to get up there and give a talk about parents raising up their children according to the Bible, when you weren't doing it yourself.
Hard to generalise but new believers especially younger ones often get sucked into cults, like hillsong. its not they accept it, is just that those in leadership are wolves in sheeps clothing and pretty cunning at fleecing the flock.
why did you go there anyway?
No other fellowship around, or everyone else was? Am glad you saw the light and left. Hillsong has its hooks into a lot of churches, that arent even hillsong branded, but they may play hillsong music, and every time they play apparently they will get royalties of some sort from music CD or download sales. If its that profitable, not sure why they need to ask for more money on top of that.
pastors living the life of riley remind me of the boss saying if you work hard and earn enough, he will buy himself another lamborghini.
why did you go there anyway?
No other fellowship around, or everyone else was? Am glad you saw the light and left. Hillsong has its hooks into a lot of churches, that arent even hillsong branded, but they may play hillsong music, and every time they play apparently they will get royalties of some sort from music CD or download sales. If its that profitable, not sure why they need to ask for more money on top of that.
pastors living the life of riley remind me of the boss saying if you work hard and earn enough, he will buy himself another lamborghini.
“The worker deserves his wages.”
I would think it comes down to what those wages are.
For instance, some preachers (televangelists, for example)
believe they need a personal jet. Is this justified? Maybe it is,
and maybe it isn't. Each case needs to be handled individually.
getting enough bible in you doesn't mean one is called to be or hold the office of a Pastor. That is a gift to the church as 1cor 12 says
Ephesians 4. 'Pastor' does not show up in the gift lists in I Corinthians 12.
But preaching and being a pastor are not the same thing. Usually 'preach' in the NT shows up in evangelistic contexts. Hebrews 5 says, 'for when for the time ye ought to be teachers....' One can preach or teach without being a pastor. I Corinthians 14:26 says '...every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine...Let all things be done unto edifying."
The first century church met in each others homes, Jesus instruction to those who are His disciples is to heal, restore, cast out and preach.
Constantine built a "church" hierarchy based on the Roman model of government, not what was originally intended.
best wishes
Constantine built a "church" hierarchy based on the Roman model of government, not what was originally intended.
best wishes
When someone asks me about being called, or not hearing the calling, I quote "He who has ears, let him hear." - Mt. 13:9
"In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" Hebrews 5:12
Granted that not everyone has the bandwidth to serve full time, but many hands make the load light.
"In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" Hebrews 5:12
Granted that not everyone has the bandwidth to serve full time, but many hands make the load light.
those pesky Romans. Not the best example of govt!
All that luxury and extravagance, (for the very elite) Nero fiddling while Rome burned.
as far as I know, pastors arent paid wages, They have a stipend, or salary.
it is different from wages. wages are fixed and paid weekly or fortnightly and are usually paid per hour.
How much does a pastor get paid?? I dont know if they ever mentioned getting $18 per hour which is the minimum wage.
All that luxury and extravagance, (for the very elite) Nero fiddling while Rome burned.
as far as I know, pastors arent paid wages, They have a stipend, or salary.
it is different from wages. wages are fixed and paid weekly or fortnightly and are usually paid per hour.
How much does a pastor get paid?? I dont know if they ever mentioned getting $18 per hour which is the minimum wage.
the call to salvation is one to all, the gift of equipping of the saints as 1cor 12 states is in the gifting of apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachersWhen someone asks me about being called, or not hearing the calling, I quote "He who has ears, let him hear." - Mt. 13:9
"In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" Hebrews 5:12
Granted that not everyone has the bandwidth to serve full time, but many hands make the load light.
There's some dangers in the paid preacher thing.
1. You could be offloading your responsibility to develop and exercise your own Christian conscience.
2. If you're the preacher, you might not give counsel when it's due, because you're in fear for your job.
3. You could get to thinking more of yourself than is necessary to think.
I'm not saying it can't be done right, and I'm sure many do, but there are dangers.
1. You could be offloading your responsibility to develop and exercise your own Christian conscience.
2. If you're the preacher, you might not give counsel when it's due, because you're in fear for your job.
3. You could get to thinking more of yourself than is necessary to think.
I'm not saying it can't be done right, and I'm sure many do, but there are dangers.
Too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the stew.When someone asks me about being called, or not hearing the calling, I quote "He who has ears, let him hear." - Mt. 13:9
"In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" Hebrews 5:12
Granted that not everyone has the bandwidth to serve full time, but many hands make the load light.
Any man who comes to pastor a church should be willing to do so without respect of salary. Yes if the congregation can afford a full time pastor they should pay an appropriate salary. Salary should never be a condition of accepting a pastorate. It is God who supplies and a man with a heart to pastor knows his pay is controlled by God in heaven.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Fear?
That's why I don't speak up, but I do walk away and warn my brethren by telling them my personal experience. I don't always talk to the offender because I don't want to invite abuse
BTW even if you do have a paid preacher, he should be willing to take counsel.
I'm thinking of people like Apollos.
Acts 18:24-26
24 Now there came to Ephesus a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria. He was an eloquent man, well-versed in the scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord; and he spoke with burning enthusiasm and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.
Nothing there shows he took his gifts as making him above correction.
Paul too, had to counsel Peter...
When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? - Galatians 2:14
Peter could have said "Yeah? Where were you? We were with Jesus and you were persecuting", but he didn't.
No one is above counsel by anyone.
Think of Naaman in 2 Kings
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Kings 5&version=NIV
Naaman almost didn't listen to counsel.
I'm thinking of people like Apollos.
Acts 18:24-26
24 Now there came to Ephesus a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria. He was an eloquent man, well-versed in the scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord; and he spoke with burning enthusiasm and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.
Nothing there shows he took his gifts as making him above correction.
Paul too, had to counsel Peter...
When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? - Galatians 2:14
Peter could have said "Yeah? Where were you? We were with Jesus and you were persecuting", but he didn't.
No one is above counsel by anyone.
Think of Naaman in 2 Kings
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Kings 5&version=NIV
Naaman almost didn't listen to counsel.
My own problem in taking counsel is that I have a spirit that likes to battle. I get to thinking I'm right, I can defend my position verbally, and then I can go away thinking I'm right, when I'm just good at arguing my position.
An old cowboy preacher I know told me once that no one wants the sword of the spirit used on them, but handed to them.
That's hard to remember.
The other thing is that everyone has a different conscience and we're going to differ on how we view things. You want peace, and you want to grow, but knowing what you can talk about with people and what you can't talk about with people can be a problem. You may be knocking, asking and seeking, but the other person may not feel there's any further need for knocking, asking and seeking and they just feel you're stirring things up. Maybe you are? Maybe I am. It's a continuing problem, and it can be one if you're preaching to an audience. You want them to grow, you want to grow, but you can't "make it grow", because you have to keep reminding yourself that you can only plant and water, but God is the one who makes it grow. (Plus you have to be sure what you think is planting and watering is really the word of God, and not just some crazy idea you have)
An old cowboy preacher I know told me once that no one wants the sword of the spirit used on them, but handed to them.
That's hard to remember.
The other thing is that everyone has a different conscience and we're going to differ on how we view things. You want peace, and you want to grow, but knowing what you can talk about with people and what you can't talk about with people can be a problem. You may be knocking, asking and seeking, but the other person may not feel there's any further need for knocking, asking and seeking and they just feel you're stirring things up. Maybe you are? Maybe I am. It's a continuing problem, and it can be one if you're preaching to an audience. You want them to grow, you want to grow, but you can't "make it grow", because you have to keep reminding yourself that you can only plant and water, but God is the one who makes it grow. (Plus you have to be sure what you think is planting and watering is really the word of God, and not just some crazy idea you have)
you know nothing of pastoring The person is worth the labor even slaves are to receive a just payment.
that sounds more like the spirit of debate instead of edifying. wanting to be right and not wanting to do the work or support it in the local church setting. it is known as being a rebel. The most successful Pastors worked with and for other pastors who held to the word of God. Today many get the feeling hurt and come to church to look to correct the " Pastor" or cause division because they think they know more. it is an excellent display of immaturity.