Apostasy 101
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I like to call it blessed assurance, just like in the old hymn. I talk about it on my profile page. I feel eternally secure in the sense that my surrender is complete. I will never achieve perfection and I realize that it is not neccesary. Our thinking is not as different as Satan would have us believe.
I said fruit represents the fruit of the Spirit--the qualities of the Spirit.
You're probably a lot like me. You don't cheat on your taxes. You don't cheat on your wife. Perhaps you're active in your church. You have various works of faith but most of the time you have little to no visible fruit of the Spirit--joy, peace, calmness, patience, etc. Which makes you almost indiscernible from unbelievers.
How can I make such a distinction? Easy. Simple observation. I've almost always saw myself as being 3rd type of soil, yet I knew without a doubt that I was saved. I had plenty works of righteousness, produced and motivated by my relationship with God, but I had little to no fruit; the kind that isn't seen in what you do, but in who you are. That's you, that's me, that's most of us believers in the church, most of the time. But according to your doctrine that means we are not saved, and never have been. You condemn yourself by your interpretation of the Parable of the Sower.
I'm speaking very generally, of course. The point is, the soils represent progressive states of the soil of our hearts. Sometimes we are in a season of fruitfulness. Other times we've been cut back and don't have much fruitfulness at all. Some believers even struggle with unbelief (like the Galatians). The point being, you can't pigeonhole the 2nd type of soil as being exclusively unsaved soil. Nor the 3rd type of soil. If the 4th type of soil is the only saved soil then we're both in trouble. We've never been saved according to your doctrine. I don't think you're prepared to accept that, but that is exactly what your doctrine is saying.
You're probably a lot like me. You don't cheat on your taxes. You don't cheat on your wife. Perhaps you're active in your church. You have various works of faith but most of the time you have little to no visible fruit of the Spirit--joy, peace, calmness, patience, etc. Which makes you almost indiscernible from unbelievers.
How can I make such a distinction? Easy. Simple observation. I've almost always saw myself as being 3rd type of soil, yet I knew without a doubt that I was saved. I had plenty works of righteousness, produced and motivated by my relationship with God, but I had little to no fruit; the kind that isn't seen in what you do, but in who you are. That's you, that's me, that's most of us believers in the church, most of the time. But according to your doctrine that means we are not saved, and never have been. You condemn yourself by your interpretation of the Parable of the Sower.
I'm speaking very generally, of course. The point is, the soils represent progressive states of the soil of our hearts. Sometimes we are in a season of fruitfulness. Other times we've been cut back and don't have much fruitfulness at all. Some believers even struggle with unbelief (like the Galatians). The point being, you can't pigeonhole the 2nd type of soil as being exclusively unsaved soil. Nor the 3rd type of soil. If the 4th type of soil is the only saved soil then we're both in trouble. We've never been saved according to your doctrine. I don't think you're prepared to accept that, but that is exactly what your doctrine is saying.
Go ahead. Tell me you've been soil #4 the whole time you've been a believer.
Good for you if you have been, but simple observation tells me genuine believers can be soils #2,3, and 4 at different times.
When you consider the difference between what you do and who you are you'll see exactly how you can be soils #2 or 3 and still be very much a saved person with living, yet fruitless faith.
Good for you if you have been, but simple observation tells me genuine believers can be soils #2,3, and 4 at different times.
When you consider the difference between what you do and who you are you'll see exactly how you can be soils #2 or 3 and still be very much a saved person with living, yet fruitless faith.
You'll have to take that up with works salvationists. Whoever they are. I personally don't know any and may have only known one in my whole Christian life who appeared to not be an outsider to Christianity.
The five minute rule prevented me from stating it the way I should have. You can't instantly equate not believing in osas with works salvation. That is a HUGE error on your part.
The problem is it always looks that way to you, not that it actually is always that way. There are us Christians that understand not having works of righteousness in their life can indicate a hardening of the heart in unbelief leading to loss of salvation. Works are a kind of litmus test of one's faith in God, not a way to secure and keep salvation. But you always judge that thinking as one trying to work to earn their salvation.
That's easy for me to know because I was one of them! While my wife became that after she was saved.
But anyway, like I say, truth is almost always found in between the various doctrines of the church. If we'd just listen to each other and bring all the pieces of truth that we all possess together we could come into some semblance of unity. That's how how I form my personal doctrinal beliefs. I pick the scripturally verifiable truths out from everything people say and put them together to arrive at the truth. But most people stay in their preprogrammed box of doctrinal beliefs that they were taught and refuse to budge an inch on them. You don't learn truth that way. Most Christians can't even fathom there is a different way to look at their favorite proof texts.
If you would just be able to 1) honestly admit you've spent a lot of time in soil #3 as a believer (which is probably true), and 2) recognize the difference between what you do in regard to works of righteousness and who you are in regard to the fruit of the Spirit you'd see that the Parable of the Sower does indeed represent the changing soil of the believer's heart. But like I say, if you have genuinely been type #4 soil all your Christian life then good for you. But don't project your personal experience onto the rest of us who haven't been soil #4 through every season of our spiritual lives but who have been genuinely saved nonetheless. Don't form doctrine that way alone.
The five minute rule prevented me from stating it the way I should have. You can't instantly equate not believing in osas with works salvation. That is a HUGE error on your part.
The problem is it always looks that way to you, not that it actually is always that way. There are us Christians that understand not having works of righteousness in their life can indicate a hardening of the heart in unbelief leading to loss of salvation. Works are a kind of litmus test of one's faith in God, not a way to secure and keep salvation. But you always judge that thinking as one trying to work to earn their salvation.
You are the first person in the NOSAS camp that I heard say soil #2 can represent a person who never believed. You are full of surprises! 
But anyway, like I say, truth is almost always found in between the various doctrines of the church. If we'd just listen to each other and bring all the pieces of truth that we all possess together we could come into some semblance of unity. That's how how I form my personal doctrinal beliefs. I pick the scripturally verifiable truths out from everything people say and put them together to arrive at the truth. But most people stay in their preprogrammed box of doctrinal beliefs that they were taught and refuse to budge an inch on them. You don't learn truth that way. Most Christians can't even fathom there is a different way to look at their favorite proof texts.
You seem to view these different soils as revolving and evolving experiences.
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Yes, by the eventual flat out denial of Christ in a return to unbelief.
He covers us when we are unfaithful in the growing pains of our life in Christ.
But He will deny us if we deny him in unbelief.
There's a difference between being unfaithful because of weakness or ignorance while still believing in Christ, and denying Him in an outright unbelief. Denying him is what sets you on the course to losing your salvation.
He covers us when we are unfaithful in the growing pains of our life in Christ.
But He will deny us if we deny him in unbelief.
There's a difference between being unfaithful because of weakness or ignorance while still believing in Christ, and denying Him in an outright unbelief. Denying him is what sets you on the course to losing your salvation.
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Maybe it does in the extreme beliefs of works salvation nosas, but not in the 'you can lose your salvation' I'm advocating where continued believing makes you secure in Christ.
When you understand that loss of salvation is due to not believing in Christ anymore and not by no longer earning your salvation by your works you realize how very secure salvation is for the believer. We are securely sealed in Christ by our faith, not our works. Works only assure one outwardly that they are secure in Christ through faith.
I know you agree with this. We just differ in that you think the believer can never stop believing. That's fine, to a point. At least you defend the necessity for holy living. Not as a way to earn salvation, but as the consequential evidence of that salvation.
When you understand that loss of salvation is due to not believing in Christ anymore and not by no longer earning your salvation by your works you realize how very secure salvation is for the believer. We are securely sealed in Christ by our faith, not our works. Works only assure one outwardly that they are secure in Christ through faith.
I know you agree with this. We just differ in that you think the believer can never stop believing. That's fine, to a point. At least you defend the necessity for holy living. Not as a way to earn salvation, but as the consequential evidence of that salvation.
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Paul uses the same Greek word (hagiazo) in 1 Corinthians 1:2 for believers who are "sanctified" in Christ Jesus as he does for the unbelieving spouse who is "sanctified" by the believing spouse, yet the unbelieving spouse is not saved by this association but does come under the believing spouse's influence and is in a real sense "set apart" from other unbelievers.
There is no problem with my argument, which is in perfect harmony with the context of Hebrews 10 and with the rest of scripture. So as I already explained to you and to your condescending friend once again in post #373, after considering the CONTEXT it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. You can try all you want to dazzle me or baffle me into changing my mind and siding with your biased interpretation, but I can assure you that it's NEVER going to happen and you and your friend will just have to find a way to get over it.
Oh the irony and these types of psychological games don't work on me either. I already made my adjustments after my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church. BTW the Roman Catholic church strongly opposes OSAS and there is a reason for that. You will both just have to find someone else to deceive. I'm not buying what you are selling.
There is no problem with my argument, which is in perfect harmony with the context of Hebrews 10 and with the rest of scripture. So as I already explained to you and to your condescending friend once again in post #373, after considering the CONTEXT it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. You can try all you want to dazzle me or baffle me into changing my mind and siding with your biased interpretation, but I can assure you that it's NEVER going to happen and you and your friend will just have to find a way to get over it.
Oh the irony and these types of psychological games don't work on me either. I already made my adjustments after my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church. BTW the Roman Catholic church strongly opposes OSAS and there is a reason for that. You will both just have to find someone else to deceive. I'm not buying what you are selling.
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For someone who subscribes to works salvation, this probably sounds like a lot of hard work! So what did the writer of Hebrews mean here?
In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE WHO HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER THAT REST, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Those who fall short of the grace of God and do not enter in because of UNBELIEF obviously did not make every effort to enter that rest.
In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE WHO HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER THAT REST, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Those who fall short of the grace of God and do not enter in because of UNBELIEF obviously did not make every effort to enter that rest.
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For someone who subscribes to works salvation, this probably sounds like a lot of hard work! So what did the writer of Hebrews mean here?
In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE WHO HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER THAT REST, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Those who fall short of the grace of God and do not enter in because of UNBELIEF obviously did not make every effort to enter that rest.
In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE WHO HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER THAT REST, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Those who fall short of the grace of God and do not enter in because of UNBELIEF obviously did not make every effort to enter that rest.
I appreciate your efforts, but you and I just do not see eye to eye on the parable of the soils and probably never will. I also appreciate you not falsely accusing me of being disingenuous or calling me a liar whenever we have a disagreement over doctrine. I believe that all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Faith that remains unfruitful, is a dead faith. (James 2:14)
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So you basically define believing "as" works, as do all works-salvationists. Believing unto salvation is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Doing which follows is works. Though our deeds are judged by God (believers will receive rewards and loss of rewards based on works - 1 Corinthians 3:13-15) it's not the good deeds/works themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life/salvation (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. (Romans 2:6-10) Good deeds produced out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation.
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