And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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Runningman said:
This isn’t personal for me. I just make sure your heresies don’t drag other people down with you and put Christianity in a negative light. If I see anything like your words that blatantly makes God looks bad I’ll refute it agin, and again, and again.
After years on forums debating, I think I understand finally why so many people flatly refuse to see clear verses for what they are. These people bring their opinionated emotions into it. So they are VESTED in their views. Emotions are strong allies. And they commit transference, whereby they apply their own emotional views to God Himself. They think, since such and such is SO offensive to me, it must also be as offensive to God. All they do is bring God down to their own level.
Such people will NEVER change their minds, as long as they think God thinks the way they do.
This isn’t personal for me. I just make sure your heresies don’t drag other people down with you and put Christianity in a negative light. If I see anything like your words that blatantly makes God looks bad I’ll refute it agin, and again, and again.
After years on forums debating, I think I understand finally why so many people flatly refuse to see clear verses for what they are. These people bring their opinionated emotions into it. So they are VESTED in their views. Emotions are strong allies. And they commit transference, whereby they apply their own emotional views to God Himself. They think, since such and such is SO offensive to me, it must also be as offensive to God. All they do is bring God down to their own level.
Such people will NEVER change their minds, as long as they think God thinks the way they do.
There’s nothing cultic about the word of God. What’s cultic is from man.
Tell me, what’s cultic about this verse?
Matthew 10:28
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Do you agree with this or not?
Tell me, what’s cultic about this verse?
Matthew 10:28
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Do you agree with this or not?
I think assigning emotionalism to your debate opponents is your projection on the matter. It exists only in your head. You can’t see how others are feeling. Pure fantasy.
I don’t see this as emotional. I see this as opportunity for outreach to people who need a lot of help, patience, and someone who won’t quickly abandon talking to them. This is me trying to teach to truth to people who aren’t ready for it. I can see that.
I don’t see this as emotional. I see this as opportunity for outreach to people who need a lot of help, patience, and someone who won’t quickly abandon talking to them. This is me trying to teach to truth to people who aren’t ready for it. I can see that.
It’s your assumption that eternal punishment isn’t death, while I can show many verses that say punishment is death. It’s your assumption Revelation 20:10 applies to all unsaved, but I can show that the unsaved are put to death or destroyed.
You’re basing a very flimsy theology on literally two verses that don’t even directly say what you’re trying to prove. Meanwhile, the verses I show prove what I’m saying.
Are you intellectually honest enough to admit you’re just making a lot of assumptions and don’t really have the word of God to back your claims?
You’re basing a very flimsy theology on literally two verses that don’t even directly say what you’re trying to prove. Meanwhile, the verses I show prove what I’m saying.
Are you intellectually honest enough to admit you’re just making a lot of assumptions and don’t really have the word of God to back your claims?
thank you for your service.
FreeGrace2 believes those who die unsaved will be in eternal conscious torment; forever wailing and gnashing their teeth. It’s quite appalling.
Im sorry but I really have no idea how you confused me with saying that the unsaved who die in their sins will be tormented forever.
Actually, I believe the exact opposite and have been vocal about that over many pages and various threads.
Based off of what I have read about your beliefs, you and I are in agreement on the fate of the unsaved. They perish, are destroyed, put to death. That hungry man who stole some food, and died unsaved won’t be eternally tormented for that sin.
The God we believe in is merciful and righteous.
Always refreshing and a pleasure to bump into people who see clearly on this matter.
FreeGrace2 believes those who die unsaved will be in eternal conscious torment; forever wailing and gnashing their teeth. It’s quite appalling.
Im sorry but I really have no idea how you confused me with saying that the unsaved who die in their sins will be tormented forever.
Actually, I believe the exact opposite and have been vocal about that over many pages and various threads.
Based off of what I have read about your beliefs, you and I are in agreement on the fate of the unsaved. They perish, are destroyed, put to death. That hungry man who stole some food, and died unsaved won’t be eternally tormented for that sin.
The God we believe in is merciful and righteous.
Always refreshing and a pleasure to bump into people who see clearly on this matter.
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Why are you hiding behind a verse I've already addressed previously?
You are trying to make it appear as though I disagree with scripture. I don't.
I didn't say The Word of God was cultic.
Some of the denominations that teach a form of Annihilationism: Christadelphians, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Seventh-day Adventists. Those are cults. That is why I said it's a cult view.
Eternal torment has been taught in the church since the first century. Annhilation is a fringe teaching.
You are trying to make it appear as though I disagree with scripture. I don't.
I didn't say The Word of God was cultic.
Some of the denominations that teach a form of Annihilationism: Christadelphians, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Seventh-day Adventists. Those are cults. That is why I said it's a cult view.
Eternal torment has been taught in the church since the first century. Annhilation is a fringe teaching.
And I've already explained that. Physical death ENDS this life. But doesn't END the afterlife. Which you seem unable to grasp.
When Rev 20:10 IMMEDIATELY precedes Rev 20:11-15, it's not assumption that what happens to 2 human beings will happen to ALL human beings. And you DON'T have a verse in that context that shows that God changes His policy.
The assumption is on your side that only the first 2 humans will be tormented for ever and ever. It's basically all one context. And the subject is the LOF.
I've already addressed this too. Their BODIES are "put to death" and "destroyed".
No, your verses only show the body being "put to death", and "destroyed".
THat would be stupid because Matt 25:46 SHOWS that punishment is eternal and it is INSANE to assume that someone who no longer exists can be punished. To assume that punishment doesn't include the conscious awareness of it.
When Rev 20:10 IMMEDIATELY precedes Rev 20:11-15, it's not assumption that what happens to 2 human beings will happen to ALL human beings. And you DON'T have a verse in that context that shows that God changes His policy.
The assumption is on your side that only the first 2 humans will be tormented for ever and ever. It's basically all one context. And the subject is the LOF.
I've already addressed this too. Their BODIES are "put to death" and "destroyed".
No, your verses only show the body being "put to death", and "destroyed".
THat would be stupid because Matt 25:46 SHOWS that punishment is eternal and it is INSANE to assume that someone who no longer exists can be punished. To assume that punishment doesn't include the conscious awareness of it.
I think you disagree with some parts of the Bible but you don’t realize it. From what I can see, you hold contradictory views about what is cultic and what is Biblical. The Bible teaches the soul can die, the soul is that sins will die, the wages of sin is death, etc. if a cult agrees with that then that doesn’t make the word of God cultic. Sometimes cults do hold true doctrines .
Well no it’s a Biblical view. Don’t some of those cults also believe in Jesus to be the Son of God? Yes. However, Jesus being the Son of God is not a cult view. I believe you want to associate me with a cult because you don’t want me to look credible because that helps your effort to discredit me.
You seem to think majority rules. I don’t think that’s the case on this point. Most of the mainstream church is completely wrong about hell.
Well no it’s a Biblical view. Don’t some of those cults also believe in Jesus to be the Son of God? Yes. However, Jesus being the Son of God is not a cult view. I believe you want to associate me with a cult because you don’t want me to look credible because that helps your effort to discredit me.
You seem to think majority rules. I don’t think that’s the case on this point. Most of the mainstream church is completely wrong about hell.
Runningman, said:
For Runningman and the Watchman,
Since both of you believe in soul annihilation, I would ask each of you to explain what Jesus meant or was referring to here:
Matt 10:15 - Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that tow
Matt 11:22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
It is clear that Jesus was referring to Judgment Day, and everyone agrees that the citizens of S & G will be at the GWT judgment.
For Runningman and the Watchman,
Since both of you believe in soul annihilation, I would ask each of you to explain what Jesus meant or was referring to here:
Matt 10:15 - Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that tow
Matt 11:22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
It is clear that Jesus was referring to Judgment Day, and everyone agrees that the citizens of S & G will be at the GWT judgment.
Those cities were destroyed, completely reduced to ashes, based on the number of righteous people they had and the number was quite low. Meaning that the standard unrepentant people will be judged by and destroyed for will be even more strict.
What does this mean?
2 Peter 2:6
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
What does this mean?
2 Peter 2:6
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
For Runningman and the Watchman,
Since both of you believe in soul annihilation, I would ask each of you to explain what Jesus meant or was referring to here:
Matt 10:15 - Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that tow
Matt 11:22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
It is clear that Jesus was referring to Judgment Day, and everyone agrees that the citizens of S & G will be at the GWT judgment.
This is your answer to my request?? Cities?? Did you somehow miss the last word in Matt 11:24? YOU
Jesus made it PERSONAL. He wasn't talking about bombing cities. He was talking about human beings IN those cities.
What did He mean by "more bearable"? Some translations use "tolerable".
Clearly what it says. Yes, here Peter WAS describing the destruction of cities. Which included all the citizens.
But focus: Jesus was making a point about the citizens of S&G and the GWT judgment being more tolerable for them than citizens in Jesus' day.
It makes perfect sense in my view. How about yours? And leave out the cities. They were destroyed millennial ago. Focus on the citizens.
Since both of you believe in soul annihilation, I would ask each of you to explain what Jesus meant or was referring to here:
Matt 10:15 - Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that tow
Matt 11:22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
It is clear that Jesus was referring to Judgment Day, and everyone agrees that the citizens of S & G will be at the GWT judgment.
This is your answer to my request?? Cities?? Did you somehow miss the last word in Matt 11:24? YOU
Jesus made it PERSONAL. He wasn't talking about bombing cities. He was talking about human beings IN those cities.
What did He mean by "more bearable"? Some translations use "tolerable".
Clearly what it says. Yes, here Peter WAS describing the destruction of cities. Which included all the citizens.
But focus: Jesus was making a point about the citizens of S&G and the GWT judgment being more tolerable for them than citizens in Jesus' day.
It makes perfect sense in my view. How about yours? And leave out the cities. They were destroyed millennial ago. Focus on the citizens.
2 Peter 2:6
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned themwith an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
The word of God clearly states the cities were destroyed and the people condemned to serve as an example of what happens to ungodly people. The Bible teaches that unsaved people are destroyed.
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned themwith an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
The word of God clearly states the cities were destroyed and the people condemned to serve as an example of what happens to ungodly people. The Bible teaches that unsaved people are destroyed.