And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[FreeGrace2]

Abraham also said there are those who wish to cross over to the rich man, but otherwise cannot. They wanted to help the rich man after all.

Luke 16:26
26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

Most likely Abraham was referring to the ones who are overly sympathetic (highly emotional) to those on the wrong side of the great chasm. They just want to help.

I highly doubt there would be any who really wanted to change addresses.

 

[Runningman]

Mark 9:22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

 

[Runningman]

John 11:35 Jesus wept.

 

[Runningman]

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

 

[Runningman]

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[FreeGrace2]

Mark 9:22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

Interesting verses, but NONE of them are relevant to what will happen to anyone cast into the LOF.

Mark 9:22 is about a man whose son is demon possessed. I believed in the Messiah, but his faith was weak, from v.24.

What is your point?

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 11:35 Jesus wept.

Yes, Jesus had compassion on believers who have died. He loved Lazarus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

Yes, Jesus had compassion on the city that rejected Him. They STILL were alive and had the opportunity to respond and repent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

OK, now I get it.

You gleaned through the Bible looking for verses that are about compassion, emotions, etc.

In EVERY verse, the compassion is about living people. People who STILL have the opportunity to respond and repent and believe.

But, ONCE a person dies, their fate is sealed.

Heb 9:27 - Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Based on what the person HAS DONE DURING HIS LIFE ON EARTH, he/she will be judged for it.

Note that the verse doesn't say "immediately" after dying. All believers will be judged at the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10) at the Second Advent when Jesus comes back to earth as King. All unbelievers will be judged at the GWT before being cast into the LOF, to be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The point is; once a person dies, their opportunity for response to the gospel is OVER. No more chances, no more opportunities.

There is no point in emoting over them. THEY made their own bed, so to speak, and they WILL lie in it.

Rev 21:4 - ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

This refers to ALL the experiences during the lifetime of believers. Note Rev 21 FOLLOWS ch 20 and all unbelievers receive their ultimate and final fate at the GWT judgment, including the LOF.

So, in eternity, believers will have no memory of those family/friends who didn't respond to the gospel and are in the LOF.

There will be NO MORE MOURNING. That's what the phrase refers to.

I guess the annihilationists are quite worried that they will spend eternity on the new earth mourning over their loved ones who went to the GWT judgment and ended up in the LOF.

But they simply won't remember them. NO MORE MOURNING. God removes that. Otherwise, perfect environment won't be all that perfect.

 

[Elizabeth55]

And you failed miserably. I read ahead to see what you posted.


You do NOT understand correctly. Since I believe the soul is immortal and will never "cease to exist". I've made that clear enough so that you have no excuse for your continued ignorance.

And after an unbeliever dies, their soul goes to Hades (hell), to await the resurrection of their body) for the GWT judgment. I've made that very clear as well. So I'd say your reading skills need sharpening.


If you are actually serious here about what you think I believe, you are farther GONE than anyone could suspect.

I've been clear about my belief in ECT, and here you are trying to put words in my mouth that I've never said.


You just aren't paying attention.


This is sick. I am so sorry for you.

When all humans physically die, their bodies go into the ground, if there's any thing left to bury, and their souls REMAIN conscious; saved people go to heaven and unsaved people go to Hades (hell- torments).

When Jesus brings the saints back to earth with Him at the 2nd Advent, He resurrects their physical bodies into immortal glorified bodies, just like His.

However, the unbelievers who are in hell, have to wait until all the rest of the unbelievers are dead, and then all of them will receive their mortal physical bodies, to appear before the GWT. Then they will be cast into the LOF where their physical bodies will DIE AGAIN, also called the SECOND DEATH.

If you don't understand this, you just don't want to. Or are just too dense to.

The least you should do is recognize the REAL position of other posters, rather than make up such garbage that is a LIE which you know.

You know there's a group in the catholic church called the Jesuits, their history is interesting. Founded by the popal power in the time of reformation.

They are destroyers of truth, their job is to make clear water merky to stop the bleeding of the church. An interesting read is **50 years in the Church of Rome** for anyone seeking truth. Seventh Day Adventist live by the bible. No where in the bible did christ remove the sabbath. Even in death he kept it. Consider Revelation 22:19

 

[Runningman]

You know there's a group in the catholic church called the Jesuits, their history is interesting. Founded by the popal power in the time of reformation.

They are destroyers of truth, their job is to make clear water merky to stop the bleeding of the church. An interesting read is **50 years in the Church of Rome** for anyone seeking truth. Seventh Day Adventist live by the bible. No where in the bible did christ remove the sabbath. Even in death he kept it. Consider Revelation 22:19

I agree the Catholic church has intentionally tried to sabotage the Protestant movement just to spite them. That’s clear to me. I don’t really agree with SDAs, but I maintain it’s Biblical that in the end unsaved people will be destroyed via death, destruction, perishing, annihilation or whatever like-word you want to call it.

 

[Elizabeth55]

I agree the Catholic church has intentionally tried to sabotage the Protestant movement just to spite them. That’s clear to me. I don’t really agree with SDAs, but I maintain it’s Biblical that in the end unsaved people will be destroyed via death, destruction, perishing, annihilation or whatever like-word you want to call it.

Can I ask what you don't agree with in relation to the Seventh day adventists

 

[Runningman]

Can I ask what you don't agree with in relation to the Seventh day adventists

Just about all of their distinctive doctrines and I don’t agree there is a specific 7th day sabbath of mandatory rest anymore, but one can optionally observe it if they wish. Every day should be a holy day of upright living and doing good works. Neither is work forbidden on the sabbath, Jesus proved that.

 

[WillB]

Not true.


Yes, we do know something else. What you ignored. Maybe just your English translation. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

ESV - and the devil 1who had deceived them was 2thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where 3the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You claim ONLY the devil will be tormented forever and ever. And 15 English translations have "they". So we KNOW that ALL 3; the beast, FP AND the devil will be tormented for ever and ever. In the LOF where ALL unbelievers will be cast after the GWT judgment.


In v.9, we havde "if any man", and in v.10 we have "the same" and "he shall be tormented". All of the red words refer to the same people.

And, you fail to properly understand "consume". It will become obvious it a bit.


The "smoke here is "of their torment" and ascends up for ever and ever. This alone PROVES that they will be tormented for ever and ever.

Because if unbelievers simply cease to exist, there will be NO MORE torment. It is IMPOSSIBLE to torment what DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE. To even suggest that possibility is not sane.

The ONLY WAY for the smoke of "their torment" to ascend for ever and ever is BECAUSE the torment continues for ever and ever.


That isn't the issue. The "smoke" comes from THEIR TORMENT. Their torment is experienced IN their consciousness.


Again, the word "they" is included in 15 of the English translations on biblehub.com and in Greek interlinears.


God's truth, obviously.


v.4 only refers to believers, all of whom will be on the new earth. All unbelievers will be in the LOF and not part of this text.


Reading skills need some honing. Rev 20:10 SAYS smoke from THEIR TORMENT. THEY are being tormented and the smoke from that torment will ascend for ever and ever. That PROVES that they will be tormented for ever and ever.

If the torment stops because they cease to exist, why would smoke continue? The verse is clear; it is the smoke FROM THEIR TORMENT that rises up for ever and ever.

No smoke, no torment. If their torment ceases, the smoke would cease.


Yes, you have. In fact, quite a few verses on this subject.

Psa 78:66 - He beat back his enemies; he put them to everlasting shame. So, how can a no longer-existing person be "put to everlasting shame"?? That would be impossible. This verse SAYS God puts His enemies (unbelievers) to "everlasting shame".

Jer 23:40 - I will bring on you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.”

The context begins at v.33 and is about false prophecy and false prophets. The ONLY WAY one can experience "shame" is to be conscious of it. If a soul ceases to exist, how can there be any feelings at all, whether shame or joy? Not possible.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The verse is about an existence; some to everlasting life, and others to SHAME and EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.

These descriptions REQUIRE consciousness to experience.

Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Maybe you can explain how to punish one who no longer exists. How does that work? It doesn't.

2 Thess 1:9 - They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Once something has been destroyed, the "destruction" ends. There is NOTHING LEFT to destroy.

So, please, explain how destruction can be everlasting AFTER the soul has ceased to exist.

Jude 1:7 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Clearly, this is related to Rev 20:10, where 'they' (beast, FP and devil) will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The verse clearly and obviously teaches that the citizens will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

One last thing: in Rev 20:10, the words "day and night" which precede "for ever and ever" show a time frame.

In the Bible, a "day and night" means a 24 hours period. So when a specific time period is added to "for ever and ever", we KNOW that the phrase "for ever and ever" really means just that: never-ending.

Your attempts at trying to prove that souls of unbelievers will cease to exist have failed. You simply fail to understand that "consume" and "destroy" refers to the BODIES of unbelievers.

Recall from Acts 24:15 that unbelievers will be resurrected. This is for the GWT judgment. After their judgment, unbelievers will be cast into the LOF, which is also called the SECOND DEATH. Hm. So what dies a second time? Everyone is either born spiritually dead, or they become spiritually dead at their FIRST act of wilful sin. So what will die AGAIN is their physical resurrected body.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

The difference is that believers will receive a glorified immortal physical body, while unbelievers will simply get their old physical carcass back, which will DIE AGAIN.

If you could understand that the physical resurrected bodies of unbelievers WILL be consumed and destroyed, your whole idea collapses.

I will suggest that the way to discern the Truth of the matter is to firstly recognize that whatever view we have on this issue may possibly be due to what we were first ‘taught’ to believe.

Secondly, we may have to consider that that view is possibly incorrect.

Thirdly, we need to recognize that each of us have the tendency to continue to believe what we have first been ‘taught’ on this …and other matters and that even when we examine our belief we tend to look for confirmation of our view.

So, we need to pray in faith to God to give enlightenment. And He will give us wisdom if we pray in faith and His means of providing enlightenment and wisdom is through His Word.

The following article which I have referenced and provided an extract is worth considering in its entirety before making a decision.
https://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php

CONCLUSION

Support can be found through the Holy Scriptures to back up the case for eternal torture as well as the case for annihilation in Hell. In coming to a conclusion, therefore, one must take this to heart and study all of God's Word to find which model fits best with the overall thrust of Scripture. From my study of the Bible, it seems to say much more about the death of the wicked than about their torture.

Numerous verses use the terminology of life and immortality only when depicting Heaven while reserving words such as death, perishing, and destruction to describe Hell. Furthermore, there is not even one verse in the entire Bible that teaches the supposed "immortality of the soul" doctrine so prevalent in most Christian theology. Instead, it is made very clear that only God has eternal life, and He bestows immortality only to those whom He chooses—not to everyone. In reading the Bible for its plain meaning, there is no reason to feel obligated to believe that human beings will be kept alive in a never-ending, torturous Hell.

 

[Elizabeth55]

I agree the Catholic church has intentionally tried to sabotage the Protestant movement just to spite them. That’s clear to me. I don’t really agree with SDAs, but I maintain it’s Biblical that in the end unsaved people will be destroyed via death, destruction, perishing, annihilation or whatever like-word you want to call it.

Can I ask what you don't agree with in relation to the Seventh day adventists

Just about all of their distinctive doctrines and I don’t agree there is a specific 7th day sabbath of mandatory rest anymore, but one can optionally observe it if they wish. Every day should be a holy day of upright living and doing good works. Neither is work forbidden on the sabbath, Jesus proved that.

Mormons have this belief

 

[soberxp]

The sternness of God is suitable for everyone, and it is a proper way for God to deal with the devil. If there are 20 billion people in the world, and the pain of each person adds up to almost permanent pain, is it just a way of education for God to let the devil feel the same pain?

 

[Runningman]

Can I ask what you don't agree with in relation to the Seventh day adventists


Mormons have this belief

If you wish, open a new thread with your question in the Bible discussion forum and I’ll expound on that further. The main topic of this thread is a debate about conditional immortality versus eternal conscious torment.

A new thread will open it up to a broader range of perspectives. You might find there are at least a few who agree with the SDA, but I haven’t witnessed much vocal support from many on this board.

 

[oyster67]

You know there's a group in the catholic church called the Jesuits, their history is interesting. Founded by the popal power in the time of reformation.

They are destroyers of truth, their job is to make clear water merky to stop the bleeding of the church. An interesting read is **50 years in the Church of Rome** for anyone seeking truth. Seventh Day Adventist live by the bible. No where in the bible did christ remove the sabbath. Even in death he kept it. Consider Revelation 22:19

I have no issue with the day one worships, so long as they love Jesus.
Welcome to CC, Elizabeth!

 

[Runningman]

I will suggest that the way to discern the Truth of the matter is to firstly recognize that whatever view we have on this issue may possibly be due to what we were first ‘taught’ to believe.

Secondly, we may have to consider that that view is possibly incorrect.

Thirdly, we need to recognize that each of us have the tendency to continue to believe what we have first been ‘taught’ on this …and other matters and that even when we examine our belief we tend to look for confirmation of our view.

So, we need to pray in faith to God to give enlightenment. And He will give us wisdom if we pray in faith and His means of providing enlightenment and wisdom is through His Word.

The following article which I have referenced and provided an extract is worth considering in its entirety before making a decision.
https://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php

CONCLUSION

Support can be found through the Holy Scriptures to back up the case for eternal torture as well as the case for annihilation in Hell. In coming to a conclusion, therefore, one must take this to heart and study all of God's Word to find which model fits best with the overall thrust of Scripture. From my study of the Bible, it seems to say much more about the death of the wicked than about their torture.

Numerous verses use the terminology of life and immortality only when depicting Heaven while reserving words such as death, perishing, and destruction to describe Hell. Furthermore, there is not even one verse in the entire Bible that teaches the supposed "immortality of the soul" doctrine so prevalent in most Christian theology. Instead, it is made very clear that only God has eternal life, and He bestows immortality only to those whom He chooses—not to everyone. In reading the Bible for its plain meaning, there is no reason to feel obligated to believe that human beings will be kept alive in a never-ending, torturous Hell.

Well said and thank you for citing the source for that commentary.

When I first started reading the Bible, I was told all unsaved people go to hell eternally so I naively accepted that. So I viewed the Bible through a kind of lens where my assumptions sought confirmation.

I took a break from reading the Bible around 10 years or so, but eventually came back with a fresh pair of eyes and realized a lot of what I thought I knew before was false.

At first I couldn’t believe everything I was seeing, thinking “Wait a minute. John 3:16 actually says that the only ones who get eternal life are those who believe in Jesus and all others perish. That means those in hell don’t have eternal life and therefore aren’t there eternally.”

Like most people seem to do, I rejected what I had just realized and retreated back into my comfort zone. At some point I realized I need to be honest with myself and honest with God about everything I’m finally understanding.

Now that’s how I view the Bible. I really do don’t have a horse in the race about what it says.

The Bible is God’s book and whatever it says should be represented fairly, truthfully, whether people like it or not, even if I’m standing alone, and I often am. None of that phases me and I’ve been blessed tremendously for it.

 

[WillB]

Well said and thank you for citing the source for that commentary.

When I first started reading the Bible, I was told all unsaved people go to hell eternally so I naively accepted that. So I viewed the Bible through a kind of lens where my assumptions sought confirmation.

I took a break from reading the Bible around 10 years or so, but eventually came back with a fresh pair of eyes and realized a lot of what I thought I knew before was false.

At first I couldn’t believe everything I was seeing, thinking “Wait a minute. John 3:16 actually says that the only ones who get eternal life are those who believe in Jesus and all others perish. That means those in hell don’t have eternal life and therefore aren’t there eternally.”

Like most people seem to do, I rejected what I had just realized and retreated back into my comfort zone. At some point I realized I need to be honest with myself and honest with God about everything I’m finally understanding.

Now that’s how I view the Bible. I really do don’t have a horse in the race about what it says.

The Bible is God’s book and whatever it says should be represented fairly, truthfully, whether people like it or not, even if I’m standing alone, and I often am. None of that phases me and I’ve been blessed tremendously for it.

Your candour is really appreciated.

I'm speaking as a former atheist when I say that when I first opened the Bible looking for 'loopholes' i.e. mistakes/errors to justify my position and conduct which was hedonistic I slammed the book SHUT! on reading about the outcome for drinkers and women chasers. SHUT! Closed Book.........but even atheists have a conscience.....and IF there's NO God....just how on Planet Earth do we humans come to have a conscience? Huh?

So, long story short: after much research into the 'science' which supposedly underpins Darwinian evolution; honest self-examination; and diligent research into the claims for the veracity of the Bible and which of necessity - and very much so in my case - involved the pain of condemnation from the Holy Spirit about my guilt ...the only place I could run to was the Cross and Jesus Christ for mercy and forgiveness and the free gifts of faith, justification, and the slow process of sanctification.

One of my favourite lines is from Charles Haddon Spurgeon - it was reading his sermons and the work of the Holy Spirit that regenerated me is - "it is better to be in the abyss of the Truth than on the summit of falsehood {and foolishness].

Another one from Spurgeon is something to the effect: "That the Most High would sink so low as to become the lowest of the low and despised by men and to die on their behalf could not possibly come from the pen of the most creative poet or imaginative writer and could come only from the Divine Mind."