And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[kleronomos]

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

 

[Gojira]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I think this verse says it all.

Their torment's smoke rises forever, implying that their torment continues unendingly.

No rest day or night seems to suggest an eternal suffering as well.

Also, after 1,000 years, the beast & co. are still there. They didn't burn up into smoke.

I am of the belief that people in Hell are there because they choose to be. How so?

Easy: One of our major sinful downfalls, if not our principal one, is pride. I think that people in Hell would rather suffer than surrender their own perceptions of self-deification to God. We'd rather cling to our pride than repent. I have seen this darkness in myself, so I know it's there (and frankly, it scared the crap out of me, and I asked God to remove it). The people in Revelation are proof. Curse after curse after judgment after judgment, and still the people do not repent.

God is not unjust.

 

[Jackson123]

do you believe people on the left in this verse go to eternal fire or hell?

matt 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and

 

[Nehemiah6]

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere?

That is a lie from the devil. He knows his fate is sealed, but he will be dragging millions into the Lake of Fire.

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

Well you forgot the parts where all the Devil's corrupt kingdom of corrupted creations of all sorts gets thrown into the lake of fire which is never quenched, where their worms dies not, and they in the outer darkness and flames get to gnash their teeth and wail about how they were wrong for eternity while Jesus lives forever with those he saves in his Kingdom praising God for eternity.

 

[Magenta]

The lie the devil told is, "Thou shalt not surely die."

It is being repeated to this day.

The wages of sin is death.

Our God is a Consuming Fire

 

[kleronomos]

I think this verse says it all.

Their torment's smoke rises forever, implying that their torment continues unendingly.

No rest day or night seems to suggest an eternal suffering as well.

Also, after 1,000 years, the beast & co. are still there. They didn't burn up into smoke.

I am of the belief that people in Hell are there because they choose to be. How so?

Easy: One of our major sinful downfalls, if not our principal one, is pride. I think that people in Hell would rather suffer than surrender their own perceptions of self-deification to God. We'd rather cling to our pride than repent. I have seen this darkness in myself, so I know it's there (and frankly, it scared the crap out of me, and I asked God to remove it). The people in Revelation are proof. Curse after curse after judgment after judgment, and still the people do not repent.

God is not unjust.

What about those who were raised in a place where they never heard the gospel? No choice there, right?

Would I be correct in saying, you believe that the souls God created have stronger 'fire proofing' than the CONSUMING FIRE IS ABLE TO CONSUME?

 

[kleronomos]

Well you forgot the parts where all the Devil's corrupt kingdom of corrupted creations of all sorts gets thrown into the lake of fire which is never quenched, where their worms dies not, and they in the outer darkness and flames get to gnash their teeth and wail about how they were wrong for eternity while Jesus lives forever with those he saves in his Kingdom praising God for eternity.

All takes place in this age. Then it ends and a New age begins.

 

[kleronomos]

That is a lie from the devil. He knows his fate is sealed, but he will be dragging millions into the Lake of Fire.

EXCELLENT, Easy fix here, please just cite the Scripture that states souls are tormented in the lake of fire for ever. Like I said, ALL I could find was where it said the DEVIL would be. Looking forward to this TRUTH you possess.

 

[kleronomos]

The lie the devil told is, "Thou shalt not surely die."

It is being repeated to this day.

The wages of sin is death.

Our God is a Consuming Fire

And this age ends.

 

[Melach]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.

you cant be serious? what is preventing you from reading the other half of the same verse lol.

there is no consciousness in smoke no. but what about the part of the verse that says, they have no rest day nor night?

 

[FreeGrace2]

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere?

Not true.

Rev 20:10 tells us
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,

Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?

Yes, we do know something else. What you ignored. Maybe just your English translation. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

ESV - and the devil 1who had deceived them was 2thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where 3the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You claim ONLY the devil will be tormented forever and ever. And 15 English translations have "they". So we KNOW that ALL 3; the beast, FP AND the devil will be tormented for ever and ever. In the LOF where ALL unbelievers will be cast after the GWT judgment.

When we began to learn the words of God we learned,
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away
No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.
SO WHERE did it come from?
It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

In v.9, we havde "if any man", and in v.10 we have "the same" and "he shall be tormented". All of the red words refer to the same people.

And, you fail to properly understand "consume". It will become obvious it a bit.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The "smoke here is "of their torment" and ascends up for ever and ever. This alone PROVES that they will be tormented for ever and ever.

Because if unbelievers simply cease to exist, there will be NO MORE torment. It is IMPOSSIBLE to torment what DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE. To even suggest that possibility is not sane.

The ONLY WAY for the smoke of "their torment" to ascend for ever and ever is BECAUSE the torment continues for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.

That isn't the issue. The "smoke" comes from THEIR TORMENT. Their torment is experienced IN their consciousness.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Again, the word "they" is included in 15 of the English translations on biblehub.com and in Greek interlinears.

So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

God's truth, obviously.

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

v.4 only refers to believers, all of whom will be on the new earth. All unbelievers will be in the LOF and not part of this text.

I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Reading skills need some honing. Rev 20:10 SAYS smoke from THEIR TORMENT. THEY are being tormented and the smoke from that torment will ascend for ever and ever. That PROVES that they will be tormented for ever and ever.

If the torment stops because they cease to exist, why would smoke continue? The verse is clear; it is the smoke FROM THEIR TORMENT that rises up for ever and ever.

No smoke, no torment. If their torment ceases, the smoke would cease.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

Yes, you have. In fact, quite a few verses on this subject.

Psa 78:66 - He beat back his enemies; he put them to everlasting shame. So, how can a no longer-existing person be "put to everlasting shame"?? That would be impossible. This verse SAYS God puts His enemies (unbelievers) to "everlasting shame".

Jer 23:40 - I will bring on you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.”

The context begins at v.33 and is about false prophecy and false prophets. The ONLY WAY one can experience "shame" is to be conscious of it. If a soul ceases to exist, how can there be any feelings at all, whether shame or joy? Not possible.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The verse is about an existence; some to everlasting life, and others to SHAME and EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.

These descriptions REQUIRE consciousness to experience.

Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Maybe you can explain how to punish one who no longer exists. How does that work? It doesn't.

2 Thess 1:9 - They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Once something has been destroyed, the "destruction" ends. There is NOTHING LEFT to destroy.

So, please, explain how destruction can be everlasting AFTER the soul has ceased to exist.

Jude 1:7 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Clearly, this is related to Rev 20:10, where 'they' (beast, FP and devil) will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The verse clearly and obviously teaches that the citizens will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

One last thing: in Rev 20:10, the words "day and night" which precede "for ever and ever" show a time frame.

In the Bible, a "day and night" means a 24 hours period. So when a specific time period is added to "for ever and ever", we KNOW that the phrase "for ever and ever" really means just that: never-ending.

Your attempts at trying to prove that souls of unbelievers will cease to exist have failed. You simply fail to understand that "consume" and "destroy" refers to the BODIES of unbelievers.

Recall from Acts 24:15 that unbelievers will be resurrected. This is for the GWT judgment. After their judgment, unbelievers will be cast into the LOF, which is also called the SECOND DEATH. Hm. So what dies a second time? Everyone is either born spiritually dead, or they become spiritually dead at their FIRST act of wilful sin. So what will die AGAIN is their physical resurrected body.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

The difference is that believers will receive a glorified immortal physical body, while unbelievers will simply get their old physical carcass back, which will DIE AGAIN.

If you could understand that the physical resurrected bodies of unbelievers WILL be consumed and destroyed, your whole idea collapses.

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

All takes place in this age. Then it ends and a New age begins.

On the very Last Day the entire universe ends in fire at the Revelation of the Father's face. Where do you think all that fire goes for the new age of the Eternity? Where goes all the old corrupted creations that were in the kingdom of the Devil when the Creation that exists now is abolished into Fire Eternal? They do not disappear entirely. They are gathered together in a pool on the outer limits of the New Creation, burning forever with the old earth and the dragon that deceived them and that they spiritually joined the kingdom thereof in order to possess the old earth, and they shall have it indeed eternally on fire for Eternity has no end, the fire is not quenched. The believers of Jesus that overcame the old earth shall get their promise of the spiritual kingdom they desired too, and they will live face to face in paradise eternal with God in the Kingdom of the New Creation where no hurt will ever enter in, praising Jesus, amen.

 

[Gojira]

What about those who were raised in a place where they never heard the gospel? No choice there, right?

Would I be correct in saying, you believe that the souls God created have stronger 'fire proofing' than the CONSUMING FIRE IS ABLE TO CONSUME?

Paul addressed your first point, which I'm not getting the relevance of here. But, I'll address it. Paul said that God will judge those who never heard the gospel according to their own law.

To your second point, I'd say that "forever and ever" sounds like eternity. The Bible's actually fairly clear on this.

 

[Magenta]

Paul addressed your first point, which I'm not getting the relevance of here. But, I'll address
it. Paul said that God will judge those who never heard the gospel according to their own law.

To your second point, I'd say that "forever and ever" sounds like eternity. The Bible's actually fairly clear on this.

Forever/Eon

 

[Magenta]

Paul addressed your first point, which I'm not getting the relevance of here. But, I'll address it.
Paul said that God will judge those who never heard the gospel according to their own law.

Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he
preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell?
No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly
by Jesus; that all men would be judged according to his gospel; that he had declared to people
the whole counsel of God; that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught; and
that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word
"Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven,
preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

From 1 Corinthians 15:50-54

 

[Gojira]

Well, I guess the vast majority of Christendom has been wrong all these centuries.

If "eternity" does not mean eternity, then how do we know we'll be with God forever?

 

[Magenta]

Well, I guess the vast majority of Christendom has been wrong all these centuries.

If "eternity" does not mean eternity, then how do we know we'll be with God forever?

That is correct, since the vast majority of Christendom has long been seated or established in Roman Catholicism. Hopefully it is no longer a knee-jerk reaction to assume "Catholic" when one says "Christian," as that used to be the case. I suppose it is possible you do not believe RCC dogmas and doctrines to be erroneous in any way (and I am certainly not suggesting that you don't, simply commenting that I do not know your stance on this issue), but it is a fact that Protestantism arose in response to numerous RCC errors and abuses. That is not to say they were all addressed in Luther's theses, though.

God is the author and giver of life. He is eternally self existent. He alone is immortal. Scripture plainly states this, and yet people will claim that man is born immortal in direct contradiction to what Scripture plainly states. All life exists in, by, for, and within Him. Those outside of Him at the end of this age following the resurrection and judgment of all do not maintain life. They pass into the second death. A multitude of Scriptures attest to the fact that the unrighteous perish, since death is the wages of sin. The word used (such as in John 3:16), Strongs #622, is appolumi, which means: to destroy, destroy utterly. Some say things like, utterly destroy does not mean utterly destroy, and dead means alive forevermore. It boggles the mind what some people say in relation to this issue in order to defend their belief.

Apollumi: Strongs Concordance # 622

 

[Magenta]

Romans 6:23~ The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Magenta]

Proverbs 10:25~ When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more, but the righteous has an everlasting foundation.