An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[kleronomos]

Are you aware of the words "hoi polloi"? It is translated "the many". The Greeks used it to mean "the masses". Just as the Hebrew word has the same connotation.

Here is the NIV: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

It doesn't mean "less than everyone" or "less than all".


This verse is like John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Both Dan 12:2 and John 5:28,29 speak of the fact that both the saved and the unsaved will rise from the dead.

Neither can be placed at the same time, as your question suggests.

The saved will be resurrected at the Second Advent, and the unsaved will rise from the dead after the Millennium to attend the GWT judgment.

I AM NOT THE ONE SUGGESTING ANYTHING. 'WHAT IS WRITTEN' IS DOING ALL THE TALKING.

Question is WHO OR WHAT is separating THEM and ASSIGNING THEM AT DIFFERENT TIMES? It clearly is not the words of God.

WHAT should we as CHRISTIANS do when the understanding of ONE VERSE REQUIRES the addition of 'A DELAY' to be set forth in at least 25 other verses?

Though the ramifications are almost UNTHINKABLE now they will be found to be almost UNBEARABLE later.

We need to make sure we are NOT getting mixed up between 'what is believed' and 'WHAT IS WRITTEN'.


DAN 12:2
And at time that shall stand up Michael the prince great who stands over the sons of your people and there shall be a time of trouble Such as never was since there was a nation [even] to time that and at time that shall be delivered your people everyone who is found written in the book

And many of those who sleep of the earth in the dust shall awake these to life everlasting and these to shame [and] contempt everlasting

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


Check it out SOULS SLEEPING IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH Without a single word of 'explanation' and just reading it as it is written it is clear to see these are NOT DEAD BODIES WAITING FOR THEIR 'SPIRITS' TO RETURN TO THEM. Another thing that is certain is THEY ARE NOT RETURNING WITH CHRIST. ( So MANY isn't changing it's 'definition' to all much like 'church' shouldn't try and change it's definition to 'elders'. And 'of those' shouldn't take on the new definition of 'dead bodies'.)

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

CHECK IT OUT SOULS WHICH SLEEP AND RISE TO BE WITH CHRIST RETURNING. AGAIN, NO EXPLANATION NECESSARY. JUST WHAT IS WRITTEN.


Am I still coming across as confused?


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Interlinear John 5:28,29
Not marvel at this for is coming an hour in which ALL those in the tombs will hear the voice of Him and will come forth those good having done to resurrection of life and those evil having done to resurrection of judgment

WHAT IS WRITTEN not only sets it all at the same time it doesn't even HINT at a separation of time. ALL IN THE TOMBS HEAR and all resurrect just to different futures

 

[kleronomos]

When the Bible speaks of "flesh and blood" it is referring to our mortal physical bodies.

Flesh and blood is speaking of earthy bodies as opposed to spiritual ones. Earth bodies all die, AS IN ADAM.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

God is fully able to resurrect bodies that have been blown to bits from war, etc. Please don't limit God's power. It is unlimited.

AGAIN, THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS BUT GODS. YOU WILL NEED TO CONVICE HIM NOT ME

IT IS WRITTEN

This now I say brothers that flesh and blood [the] kingdom of God to inherit not is able

nor the decay the immortality does inherit

Of course. Believers will have a glorified body.

YES BELIEVERS ARE RAISED IN GLORY. WHAT DOESN'T TAKE PLACE IS THEM BEING RAISED NOT IN GLORY as you would have us believe. THAT IS THE BODY we ARE RAISED IN WHEN we never die and so PASS THROUGH DEATH.


IT IS WRITTEN

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Paul is explaining that the mortal body cannot exist in the eternal kingdom. And the mortal body does not inherit an immortal one.

But God is able to resurrect our mortal bodies and change them to immortal bodies.

IT IS WRITTEN

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


THAT EARTH BODIES CAN NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD

AND A DECAYING ROTTING BODY DOES NOT INHERIT IMMORTALITY HENCE NO COMING BACK AFTER 2000 YEARS TO 'RESURRECT' DECAY AND ROT FOR A GLORIFIED BODY. THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN

Where do you see this "rule" in Scripture? And the believer's body isn't "left in the ground".

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

THE INTERLINEAR
This now I say brothers that flesh and blood [the] kingdom of God to inherit not is able
nor the decay the immortality does inherit

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Which parts of these do you see as 'missing'?

Depends on your definition of "false prophets". A false prophet could be any apostate church that preach a false gospel such as prosperity, wokeness, self-help or zionism, that's already the majority of churches in america; Or, it could be a particular person who claims to be a savior that could fix all your problems, there are a few, but not many.

 

[Lafftur]

@decontroversal - He got banned but, I agree with his understanding of the 144,000…..

they are all the male infants killed/slaughtered because of Herod’s command….they were killed because of Jesus Christ.

 

[kleronomos]

I would recommend Calvin's French edition of 1541 Institutes of the Christian Religion.

Calvin was a Frenchman and so whilst he first wrote the Institutes in Latin he also wrote French versions as well. This 1541 version is regarded as the most pastoral of all his writings.

To give you a sense of what I mean here, brother.

Calvin was a philologist. He was also a lawyer and he was highly intelligent with a genuine passion for life which he took from his upbringing and French culture. What I see from your own efforts in this thread is a passion that exceeds a learned ability - yet a mind of reason. You instinctively broaden your reason and fill in the blanks with your passion. As a consequence you exceed reason and yet sense the validity of passion that contains the same sense of truth - but can often run ahead of reason. The Word of God is filled with reason and only when we lay hold of it can we find the narrow way of Christ as an act of obedience and a willingness to lay down our own lives for His sake. Only in that meaning does pleasure in learning become joy in walking in the Spirit.

Let Calvin show you in your own language how he brought reason to bear on the Word of God and demonstrated pastorally with passion just how full the Scripture is.

As a child I went into the occult from the age of seven years and remained in that mind until I was twenty four years. When I was converted to Christ I was on the cusp of setting up an occult theosophic order that was bordering on a Satanic rebellion against God. I knew by the end of my writings that I was on the very edge of losing my mind to a power that I could not control by reason alone - and my passion that would make me its undoubted slave. It was in that moment that the Father revealed Himself and I immediately asked about Christ.

My mind as an occultist was supernaturally stimulated by unclean spirits and so what I wrote would have only been intelligible to those who were also in that mind. But the one thing that became immediately clear to me after being saved was that my mind had been restored. So the first time I read the Scriptures I was astonished that within the pages of the Bible - could be found the fullness of truth that speaks into every element of life and every difficulty of reason that is ruined by emotional flesh.

At the heart of much passion - is anger or emotional pain and confusion.

It is often injustice and falsehood of others who had authority over us and set us in chains else set us free to endlessly wrestle with truth - that made way for our fall - when truth is often informed by our minds which remember the injustices. In that common mind we must find a basis to forgive others - and we must set our faces as flint and refuse manipulation of others without rebelling against the Father who desires us to be a servant to all.

The Apostles were first taught by Christ - before they were filled by the power of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. We should not be afraid to take a sober and reasoned attitude to the Scriptures - when doing so will open us to the most precious revelation of God and cause us to wonder at Him so that we can say - what shall I do Lord.

I can not do it. I don't want to do it. I wouldn't risk it. I thank you for the suggestion but GOD will lead me where I am to go and when I am to go there, of this I am certain. (No, God does not speak to me but He moves me around well enough and sets me where He wants me and there I have learned to stay until I am moved again. If I try to do it my way it doesn't work out very well. I have learned obedience).

Now, to confirm my lack of anything past a basic education, I don't understand

"What I see from your own efforts in this thread is a passion that exceeds a learned ability - yet a mind of reason. You instinctively broaden your reason and fill in the blanks with your passion. As a consequence you exceed reason and yet sense the validity of passion that contains the same sense of truth - but can often run ahead of reason'"

what any of that means. If it is important for understanding the words of God better, please explain it in a simpler fashion. That could be one of the reasons I stick with Gods words and don't read many others. His are much easier to understand and you know they are ALWAYS the TRUTH. I like that foundation as I know where I stand. That is where comfort and security are found, at least for me. I don't know how many times a day I THANK GOD for showing me and leading me around His words. I am always humbled by His love for us.

Would you ever give up any of the truths you received from the 'bad' things that took place in your life? Well, our situations are different on that one, but as for me, never. I would joyfully take the spoiling of my good over again rather than to give up a single bit of the wisdom and knowledge I received from it. So again I thank you for the advice, I appreciate the thought, and will pray for understanding on the other part.

 

[kleronomos]

Depends on your definition of "false prophets". A false prophet could be any apostate church that preach a false gospel such as prosperity, wokeness, self-help or zionism, that's already the majority of churches in america; Or, it could be a particular person who claims to be a savior that could fix all your problems, there are a few, but not many.

You mean a few that can fix a problem and not 'false prophets', right?

 

[kleronomos]

@decontroversal - He got banned but, I agree with his understanding of the 144,000…..

they are all the male infants killed/slaughtered because of Herod’s command….they were killed because of Jesus Christ.

Do you think there were 144,000 babies killed and 12,000 from each tribe? The city wasn't that big was it? I am totally guessing here and just hoping you have the information yourself. If not no problem I will go look it up.

 

[ewq1938]

I believe the seal for the 144k is one to protect them from deception in the tribulation. That's what a typical seal was used for like on a document. It was rolled up then melted wax poured then the signet of the king would be pressed in. The seal protected the contents of the scroll because no one could break the seal, read it or alter what it said, then forge the seal a second time. So the contents of what is in the souls and minds of the 144k are protected from being altered or contaminated.


It's protection. It is a symbolic "lock" on them so no deception can penetrate.

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This is the same Greek word as when the 144k were sealed except this prevents deception from coming out rather than going in but the same concept.


Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


"having his Father's name written in their foreheads"

Also would be a clear reference to the earlier sealing:

"till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Having that name permanently guarantees that they will always belong to the Father which naturally prevents deception and Apostasy....which befalls the majority of Christians during that time.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You mean a few that can fix a problem and not 'false prophets', right?

Nope, “false prophet” could be a pastor preaching a false gospel- or a lunatic who claims himself to be Jesus. You decide which one is truly a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

 

[ewq1938]

Nope, “false prophet” could be a pastor preaching a false gospel- or a lunatic who claims himself to be Jesus. You decide which one is truly a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Actually a false prophet is someone who gives a prophecy that turns out not to come to pass like those who said God told them Trump would be re-elected in the last election.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Actually a false prophet is someone who gives a prophecy that turns out not to come to pass like those who said God told them Trump would be re-elected in the last election.

Trump being reelected is one thing, a "well funded cabal" stole it for Biden is another thing.

 

[Lafftur]

Do you think there were 144,000 babies killed and 12,000 from each tribe? The city wasn't that big was it? I am totally guessing here and just hoping you have the information yourself. If not no problem I will go look it up.

Herod had male babies killed from birth to 2 years old in Bethlehem and surrounding cities….there could have easily been 144,000.

They would have been firstfruits, virgins that never knew women…

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Herod had male babies killed from birth to 2 years old in Bethlehem and surrounding cities….there could have easily been 144,000.

They would have been firstfruits, virgins that never knew women…

Haha for hooha!

 

[Lafftur]

Haha for hooha!

How many male babies do you estimate were killed by Herod from birth to 2 years old in Bethlehem and surrounding cities?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How many male babies do you estimate were killed by Herod from birth to 2 years old in Bethlehem and surrounding cities?

Not as many as PP sucked out with a super vacuum machine on a single day.

 

[Lafftur]

Not as many as PP sucked out with a super vacuum machine on a single day.

Herod had male babies killed from birth to 2 years old….that’s 2 years of babies that were born in Bethlehem and surrounding cities…and remember the census that had been decreed… Bethlehem and the surrounding cities were over populated and all babies were in their tribal city…the place of their nativity.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Herod had male babies killed from birth to 2 years old….that’s 2 years of babies that were born in Bethlehem and surrounding cities…and remember the census that had been decreed… Bethlehem and the surrounding cities were over populated and all babies were in their tribal city…the place of their nativity.

That was a tragic event, and somehow repeating the Pharaoh's infanticide of Hebrew children in Egypt back in the beginning of Exodus, in another time at another place, and it fulfilled Jeremiah 31:15. Don't read too much into it.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

I can not do it. I don't want to do it. I wouldn't risk it.

I could have just as easily recommended Jeanne-Marie Bouvier de la Motte-Guyon and her Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ original French edition published in 1685 and would have made the same point.

As I see that another spirit has come into the theatre of meaning to award your refusal I will take another position once again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I AM NOT THE ONE SUGGESTING ANYTHING. 'WHAT IS WRITTEN' IS DOING ALL THE TALKING.

Question is WHO OR WHAT is separating THEM and ASSIGNING THEM AT DIFFERENT TIMES? It clearly is not the words of God.

You will have to suspend reality about when the Bible indicates the 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

WHAT should we as CHRISTIANS do when the understanding of ONE VERSE REQUIRES the addition of 'A DELAY' to be set forth in at least 25 other verses?

I don't see any "delay" in Scripture. I do see a separation between the 2 resurrections.

Though the ramifications are almost UNTHINKABLE now they will be found to be almost UNBEARABLE later.

[QUOET]We need to make sure we are NOT getting mixed up between 'what is believed' and 'WHAT IS WRITTEN'. [/QUOTE]
I believe what is written. And I have explained it.

DAN 12:2
And at time that shall stand up Michael the prince great who stands over the sons of your people and there shall be a time of trouble Such as never was since there was a nation [even] to time that and at time that shall be delivered your people everyone who is found written in the book

And many of those who sleep of the earth in the dust shall awake these to life everlasting and these to shame [and] contempt everlasting

The word "many" means "multitudes".

Check it out SOULS SLEEPING IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH Without a single word of 'explanation' and just reading it as it is written it is clear to see these are NOT DEAD BODIES WAITING FOR THEIR 'SPIRITS' TO RETURN TO THEM.

The word "souls" isn't in Dan 12:2. You added that to the text.

Another thing that is certain is THEY ARE NOT RETURNING WITH CHRIST.

Right. The souls return with Christ and are joined to their resurrected and glorified bodies.

Am I still coming across as confused?

Seems so.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If you are unable to understand that these verses are referring to two separate resurrections, I can't help you.

I KNOW the resurrection of the saved is "when He comes" which is the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23

I KNOW the resurrection of the unsaved will be 1,000 years AFTER He comes, at the end of the Millennium. Rev 20:5.

This is a no brainer for me.

Interlinear John 5:28,29
Not marvel at this for is coming an hour in which ALL those in the tombs will hear the voice of Him and will come forth those good having done to resurrection of life and those evil having done to resurrection of judgment

Right!! EVERY dead person's body WILL rise, when their turn comes.

WHAT IS WRITTEN not only sets it all at the same time it doesn't even HINT at a separation of time. ALL IN THE TOMBS HEAR and all resurrect just to different futures

Yes, to different futures. And at different times.

Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The "rest of the dead" refers to the unbelievers, who WILL BE resurrected after the 1,000 yr reign.

The Bible SAYS there will be two resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. And they will be 1,000 years apart.

I believe what the Bible says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
When the Bible speaks of "flesh and blood" it is referring to our mortal physical bodies.

Flesh and blood is speaking of earthy bodies as opposed to spiritual ones.

That's what I said.

AGAIN, THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS BUT GODS. YOU WILL NEED TO CONVICE HIM NOT ME

Not sure what I need to convince God of. Could you specify?

IT IS WRITTEN

This now I say brothers that flesh and blood [the] kingdom of God to inherit not is able

nor the decay the immortality does inherit



YES BELIEVERS ARE RAISED IN GLORY. WHAT DOESN'T TAKE PLACE IS THEM BEING RAISED NOT IN GLORY as you would have us believe. THAT IS THE BODY we ARE RAISED IN WHEN we never die and so PASS THROUGH DEATH.

Sorry, but I really don't understand what you are saying here. I've never said anything about "being raised not in glory". That doesn't make any sense at all.

IT IS WRITTEN

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Describing the believer's resurrection in a glorified body.

IT IS WRITTEN

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I don't understand what is hanging you up with this verse.

THAT EARTH BODIES CAN NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD

I said that.

AND A DECAYING ROTTING BODY DOES NOT INHERIT IMMORTALITY

That's your opinion. The Bible says that "we will be changed". iow, the mortal takes ON immortality.

HENCE NO COMING BACK AFTER 2000 YEARS TO 'RESURRECT' DECAY AND ROT FOR A GLORIFIED BODY. THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN

God takes the decayed and rotted mortal bodies and CHANGES it into an imperishable body. That's what is meant.