Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[eternally-gratefull]

Both are the same kind of literature (what the eyes see) or the letter of the word. Two destinations. One used to hide the unseen spiritual (walk by faith) and the other the literal understanding or (walk by sight)

It is thinking like this which gave the roman catholic church to take Gods truth and totally destroy it and make it what it was for 2000 years.

They are not related dude.

One is fortelling of literal events which will take place

One is using POSSIBLE things, or language of things which we can understand, to explain a spiritual truth.

 

[UnderGrace]

We are not talking about the new covenant

So using it as an argument does not help

We are not even talking about the old covenant (moses)

We are talking about the covenant with Abraham.

Are you referring to a dual covenant?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you referring to a dual covenant?

Nope

Once again, THE ABRAHAMIC covenant

It is still binding today.

The mosaic covenant was the old covenant, which could not save anyone. The new covenant has to do with eternal life.

Abrahamic covenant has to do with all the nations of the world being blessed. All of Abrahams offspring being as many as the stars in the heavens. And many nations coming from Him, And the covenant between him and the chosen son and ALL of their physical descendants.

Our discussion happens to be focused on the last of those promises.

 

[Melach]

If this is true, NO ONE will be left on earth for Christ to rule.

dcontroversal answers this in his book

 

[eternally-gratefull]

dcontroversal answers this in his book

Yeah, I read it.

Can’t agree.

 

[UnderGrace]

The mosaic covenant was the old covenant, which could not save anyone.

Is that so Mr. EG....can you tell me when this blessing is going to happen?

So sending Jesus the Christ was not a blessing to all the nations?

 

[Journeyman]

See, as a pre-tribber, I disagree with this (meaning, the "saved by works" idea). I believe it is always a matter of "faith" (the just shall live by faith). A lot of people think Matthew 25:31-34 and context (thru chpt end) is showing people being saved by "their works." As a pre-tribber, I don't see it that way... I see this passage as taking place FOLLOWING our Rapture and involving "the Gentiles/nations" (during the trib), with vv.31-34 being His "RETURN" to the earth (FOR the earthly MK, and their entrance into that MK time period [or, not entering it, depending...]); Verse 40's "the least of these My brethren" being the faithful/believing remnant of Israel (having themselves come to faith WITHIN the trib [AFTER our Rapture], and THEIR going forth with "the specific message" of Matthew 24:14[26:13][Matthew 22:8-14][Revelation19:9 (distinct from 19:7)], which is the "INVITATION" TO/FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the meal," the 'shall sit down'[G347]"').

The "millennial" kingdom isn't the kingdom prepared for believers from the foundation of the world (Mt.25:34), because it ends. It ends because Christ ruling over corruptable flesh ends. Jesus's resurrection proved his domination over all flesh and spirits also. His resurrection proved he has always ruled the heaven and earth. We simply didn't know it before.

The Gentiles (in this context) who aid [i.e. "BLESS"] these messengers (which will be at great risk to themselves, during that time of great deception) will themselves be the "ye, BLESSED of My Father" [the "SHEEP"/"the righteous"], whereas those who do not do so, will be the "ye, CURSED" [the goats]… but "the least of these My brethren" are not the ones BEING "judged/separated" in THIS context. But the thing about "the Sheep/the righteous" is (not as some suppose, that they are "saved" by their "WORKS"), I believe (instead) that their actions are simply evidence their "faith" (they just don't themselves realize that what they've done unto these, "the least of these My brethren," that they have [from our Lord's perspective] "done in unto [Him]!")

We know it now,

He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD Pro.19:17

 

[Journeyman]

As for 2 Peter 3:10-12, a few things (I may have mentioned some of them already, but wanted to try to answer this post more directly, if possible ):

[briefly]

--I believe 2Pet3:10-12 should be viewed in light of BOTH CHPTS of Isaiah 34-35, and not merely by extracting 34:4 out from its entire context (and recall, I've mentioned a number of times that the OT prophecies concerning "the Day of the Lord" always involve "'JUDGMENT(S)' followed by 'BLESSING'"--I believe [WE] "the Church which is His body" will not be present on the earth for the START of the Day of the Lord time period [the part involving "JUDGMENTS" unfolding on the earth ("DARK"/"DARKNESS"/"IN THE NIGHT")], but will RETURN with Him for the commencement of the MK age [the "BLESSING" aspect of their promised and prophesied earthly MK age, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth]"], whether or not we will permanently reside there I've not concluded, but am inclined to think not, but more of a travel back and forth kind of thing--I believe our bodies will be like His [Phil3:20-21]);

--I believe 2Pet3:10-12's "IN WHICH" correlates also with Acts 17:31's "IN WHICH" (pertaining to His "governance" and correlating with Daniel 7:27[25] and Dan2:35b) and that this is not referring to merely a singular 24-hr day;

--I believe 2Pet3:10-12's words of "elements [2x]" is to be viewed in the same/similar way this is used in Gal4:3,9; Col2:8[20]; Heb5:12 (see those verses and contexts)… and where it says [kjv] "shall be burned up," that the Greek word there means "its works will be laid bare" or perhaps "the works on it will be disclosed" (as is found in some translations)… so I don't see this as total obliteration of the earth (yes, I do believe Rev19:19 will take place then--as correlating with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] [which are also separated by a further spans of time, at that point], which means that ppl will experience "death" at that time, meaning, the unbelievers--same as in Matt25:46/Matt13:41, Matt22:13, etc)

They were dead before. They just didn't know it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Is that so Mr. EG....can you tell me when this blessing is going to happen?

So sending Jesus the Christ was not a blessing to all the nations?

[quoting a paragraph from a post I made awhile back, regarding this "BLESSED" issue]

"--about eight to TEN "BLESSED" passages in the gospels+ [correlating with Dan12:12's "BLESSED" (specific time slot ["Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days"]--referring to "still-living" persons, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" both/all pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]"

[end quoting that post]

____________

"BLESSED" -

[re: the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth (per Rev19)] -

--Daniel 12:12 "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" [the 'still-living' person/saints at end of trib, who will enter the MK age in their mortal bodies]

--Matthew 24:46 [Olivet Discourse] "BLESSED is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

--Matthew 25:34 [Olivet Discourse] "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye BLESSED of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from [G575 - apo; not "BEFORE G4253 - pro" as is used of others elsewhere] the foundation of the world"

--Luke 12:37 [36-37,38,40,42-44 'when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (as "ALREADY-WED") THEN the meal] "BLESSED are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them."

--Luke 12:38 [same as above] "And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, BLESSED are those servants."

--Luke 12:43 [same as above] "BLESSED is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."

--Revelation 16:15-16 [timing: Armageddon] "Behold, I come as a thief. BLESSED is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

--Revelation 19:9 [distinct from 19:7 re: "the MARRIAGE" itself (re: the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"), by contrast] "BLESSED are all those having been INVITED to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" [i.e. the earthly MK]

--[see also passages like Mk11:10 "BLESSED"; Acts 3:25-26 (said to "ye men of Israel" v.12, who "killed the Prince of life" vv.13-15, and who still needed to "repent ye and be converted" v.19 ["many" of whom did go on to "believe" per 4:4]), "shall... be BLESSED"; Mt5:5 "BLESSED... shall inherit the earth"; etc...]


None of this ^ is "fulfilled" apart from HIM (and His finished work on the Cross [the "Suffering Servant" aspects of the prophecies that Peter in Acts 3 is basically telling them they had overlooked/missed (re: HIM)]).

 

[FollowHisSteps]

just read our dear brother's book here: https://christianchat.com/blogs/book-on-the-2nd-coming-of-christ.172326/

there is no debate anymore its just over. all other views have already been disproven. time to be dogmatic or is that the right word? anyway, its time to just see it believe it. (and receive it)

it all must jive with one coming as he said
both preterist and pre-trib have that same problem, they got many comings.

My friend, if you want to listen to a teacher who does not know repentance and reconciliation with God
in the heart, that is your choice, but it simply is not scriptural. We are built on the foundation of the cross,
a cleansed heart, and walking in Holiness.

Weirdly dcon, includes the words holy, pure etc for the saints and elect, but leaves out the how and why.
Everything else that flows from this false tree is tainted and pointless as a result.

Talking about Gods future intentions through prophecy is truly dangerous, as John warned.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them,
God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in
the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Rev 22

The warning is add to the book, you will see the plagues, take away, you will lose salvation.
So we should fear saying too much here, but rather observe the images and the awesome power of
judgements, and the enemy rising up, battles, angels, which finally ends with the coming of the Kingdom.

 

[Melach]

Yeah, I read it.

Can’t agree.

what part dont you agree with? i think its all biblical cant disagree wtih it. dcontroversal is on point in prophecy

 

[Journeyman]

The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain King, which made a marriage for his Son Mt.22:2

If the invitation isn't accepted before the King returns, the door is shut.

 

[Journeyman]

"done it unto Him"

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Psa.51:4

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Act.26:14

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is that so Mr. EG....can you tell me when this blessing is going to happen?

So sending Jesus the Christ was not a blessing to all the nations?

Not sure what your trying to say, I do not think you understood what I was saying, Why are you focusing on one aspect. And not the part we are discussing?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what part dont you agree with? i think its all biblical cant disagree wtih it. dcontroversal is on point in prophecy

I already explained what I can’t agree with and why.

He may have explained it. But not to my satisfaction.

If you agree with him thats fine bro. But I can’t

To me post trib is the LEAST biblically supported pre-mil view. Its ALMOST as bad as amill in my view.

 

[garee]

It is thinking like this which gave the roman catholic church to take Gods truth and totally destroy it and make it what it was for 2000 years.

They are not related dude.

One is fortelling of literal events which will take place

One is using POSSIBLE things, or language of things which we can understand, to explain a spiritual truth.

Actual the Catholics are literalist . They must walk by sight after the thing seen like wrestling against flesh and blood, murdering that which is seen as they walk by sight (out of sight out of mind ) as those that do not agree with the their book of the law, as a law of the fathers CCC. It is their law book by which they make God's law ,the bible without effect. The bible is no use to those who make it to no effect through there literalizing.

Just how do you come up with the idea that parables are not prophecy?

Telling that which ahead is only one of the purposes of a parable. Parables speak of the time past and present. Without parables Christ spoke not. The idea if the first sense makes sense to not try and find the spiritual meaning which seem to be common among the so called sign gift denominations.

 

[garee]

If you are referring to "chiliasm" yes Tertullian and Iraneaus I believe did follow this doctrine....but many others rejected it, since it was considered not solely derived from the new testament.....Clement of Rome to Augustine believed that scripture proclaimed Jesus Christ's present reign over all things from heaven, where his saints were "with him" and not coming back to set up a future kingdom.

I found this very interesting......

It is the realization that the "literal," nationalistic interpretation of the prophets was the standard that Jesus, in the eyes of his opponents, did not live up to, and therefore was the basis of their rejection of him as messiah.

Now Irenaeus insisted this prophecy would be literally fulfilled in the kingdom on earth was Is. 11:6-7, which speaks of the wolf dwelling with the lamb and the leopard with the kid, etc.

Origen specifically mentions this passage as among those which the Jews misinterpret: "and having seen none of these events literally happening during the advent of him whom we believe to be Christ they did not accept our Lord Jesus, but crucified him on the ground that he had wrongly called himself Christ.

This "Jewish" approach to the Old Testament prophecies and its role in the Jewish rejection of Jesus was recognized even by Tertullian and was no doubt one of his motivations for taking a more "spiritualized" approach to those prophecies than Irenaeus had done.

Dr. Charles E. Hill is associate professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando. He is the author of Regnum Caelorum: Patterns of Future Hope in Early Christianity (Oxford, 1992).



So then this makes me think about the futurist overly literal fulfillment....is this the same error that caused the Jews to reject Christ?

Why dig up the dead as did the Catholic when they put the bones of a Pope Formoso on trial. It only shows as literaliist they are not allowed to walk by the exclusive faith that alone comes from hearing God.

Yes same error. Refuse to rightly divide the parables.... which without Christ spoke not.

Remember they have their own source of faith as a law of the fathers, same law they carry today as oral traditions of men that do make the word of God without effect. No man can serve two masters as teaching authorities in that way.

The 20/20 prescription is there for our free use in rightly dividing the parables .

I would ask why forfiet the spirutuall understanding for the literal historical if they are both used together ?

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actual the Catholics are literalist .

Wow man. Really? They are the church who took christian doctrines and values and had to symbolism them so they could They could easily sway the masses to convert from pagan churches to the christian church.
There is no literalism in their doctrines.

the must walk by sight after the thing seen like wrestling against flesh and blood, murdering that which is seen as they walk by sight (out of sight out of mind ) as those that do not agree with the their book of the law, as a law of the fathers CCC. It is their law book by which they make God's law ,the bible without effect. The bible is no use to those who make it to no effect through there literalizing.

Just how do you come up with the idea that parables are not prophecy?

Telling that which ahead is only one of the purposes of a parable. Parables speak of the time past and present. Without parables Christ spoke not. The idea if the first sense makes sense to not try and find the spiritual meaning which seem to be common among the so called sign gift denominations.

Once again, Prophesy is fortelling future events

Parables are using literal things known to explain spiritual truths!

They are NOT THE SAME.

 

[garee]

Wow man. Really? They are the church who took christian doctrines and values and had to symbolism them so they could They could easily sway the masses to convert from pagan churches to the christian church.

There is no literalism in their doctrines.

Holy cow, man yes...…... really.

They literaly walk by sight after the their fleshly fathers, the venerable ones, or worship-able ones.... that do lord it over the flesh of the non vereable pew sitters . .

They have no interest in the Bible at all . It is rendered useless to them who must seek after the approval of men seen. which they call a DEVINE authority as a law of the fathers. Same kind of law Saul in the new testament sought after to show he walked by sight like that of Cain in the beginning. Murder the misperceived competition as in out of sight( 6 feet under) out of mind. Just as did did the Catholics at the time of the fifteeth century reformation You could say as indeiticle twins... both reformations making the word of God as in all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) making the two witnesses...…...…. without effect.

Once again, Prophesy is fortelling future events

Parables are using literal things known to explain spiritual truths!

They are NOT THE SAME.

Many from my experience have no idea just what prophecy is. It would be one of the first things defining words. I think would it is needed to have a Bible study. Most place keep that information from the pew sisters.So that they can lord it over their flock.

The future one is the most popular today.

Its like they say ; don't worry about the present or the past. Just look for a sign ahead so that men can walk by sight.

Like in, for instance... What does it matter that God used the Jews in a parable for the time then present and without parables Christ spoke not prophecy using parables as one manner to hide the spiritual understanding designed for those who do have born again faith... not of ourselves. .

The reformation has come. That must mean something about prophecy? If we would look to what is happening today .Its easy to see that the reformation has come. . Prophecy doing its work of looking back.

Really not the same? Other than parables that are designed to hide the spiritual truths of God, using literal things known the temporal to explain spiritual truths the eternal. What other purpose to they have other then to prophesy (declare) the word of God, prophecy?

Using the scripture (prophecy) give an example of that which would support what you offer?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain King, which made a marriage for his Son Mt.22:2

If the invitation isn't accepted before the King returns, the door is shut.

Agreed.

I've said over and over again, that "the kingdom of the heavens" (and this "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" INVITATION") is not referring to "UP IN Heaven"...

and that verses 7 and 8 show a sequence (v.7 about the 70ad events [see Lk21:23,20]; then verse 8 about "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" being what He "SAID AFTER" the 70ad events, i.e. the LATER 95ad "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHEW unto His servants [see 7:3 the 144,000 "servants of our God"] things which must come to pass [see 4:1 (&1:19c, the "future" aspects of the Book!)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" (the correlating verses being Lk18:8[chpt17end] "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (He's not "AVENGING" presently, in "this present age [singular]") and Romans 16:20 "satan under YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (which is not happening presently, "in this present age [singular]") but awaits our translation (at the Rapture) when after that "WE shall JUDGE ANGELS"--not presently!)

But the context and setting of the verse you selected, is the INVITATION to the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the earthly MK] not "the MARRIAGE" itself (<---THIS is what WE are PRESENTLY asking ppl to be a part of; we are not presently "inviting" ppl to be a part of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"... THAT "invitation" will go out during the trib years [and will involve the 144,000 among others DOING that "INVITING" to the "FEAST/SUPPER[earthly MK]"], and YES, anyone who rejects that offer or does not accept that invitation BEFORE His "RETURN" will NOT enter the MK age! but will instead experience the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] which parallels TIME-WISE the Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 at the END of the Trib, context not being at the BEGINNING of it [and the BEGINNING of it, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" FOLLOWS our Rapture!])