A misconception of obedience

[Believer08]

Here is one final comment before I leave…I believe this comment sums it up…take away God’s grace from the equation…have nothing but obedience…will obedience without grace save? No…

Now, take away any and all form of obedience and have nothing but grace…will grace save? No…

In closing, here is part of an article by Brandon Levering that sums up what I’m saying in mine in the OP…

“Paul calls us to a gospel-fueled obedience. Just as he has labored to work out his salvation in the strength of the Spirit (1:19), so now he wants the Philippians to work out their own salvation with humble submission and complete dependence upon God (2:12-13). In other words, Paul doesn’t want the church to waste their life and witness (not to mention his own investment in them, cf. 2:16) by squandering what God has done and is currently doing in them through the gospel of Jesus. They have a responsibility to respond to the gospel in ever-increasing obedience, precisely because God is the one at work in them to supply both desire and ability for doing his will.

This obedience ought to show itself in gratitude, holiness, and joy. In contrast to ancient Israel, who grumbled and argued in the wilderness as they worked out their salvation—living between the saving event of the exodus and the future Promised Land—the people of God in Christ are called to express gratitude and faith as they interact with one another, even in the face of adversity (2:14; cf. 1:27-2:4). The goal of this obedience is a holiness that reflects God’s character to the watching world (2:15; cf. 1:28). And this is possible only as they hold fast to the Word of life—the Scriptures that constantly point them back to the cross and forward to the Day of Christ, when their salvation will be complete (2:16; cf. 1:9-11; 3:20-21).

Not only is this growing obedience possible, Paul is confident that God will be faithful to do it. And so he invites the Philippians to rejoice together with him in their sacrificial service to God (2:17-18) as they “work out their salvation with fear and trembling” (2:12). For just as God was faithful to exalt Christ when he poured out his life unto death (2:6-11), so he will be faithful to exalt us as we follow his example (3:20-21). “For it is God who works in you to will and to work according to his good pleasure” (2:13).

A Spirit-empowered obedience is the joyful responsibility of God’s people and a necessary fruit of God’s gospel.

 

[TrustandObey]

Acceptance of His will is a result of salvation.

The Calvin is strong in this one.

 

[Believer08]

The Calvin is strong in this one.

Sadly. They do NOT understand obedience OF FAITH (or, obedience TO THE FAITH) — Romans 16:26

 

[TrustandObey]

I’m through discussing with people. They always misrepresent, refuse to understand, and straw-man.

Hey believer, do not be too harsh on all of them but the quote by Cameron is classic.

"Acceptance of His will is a result of salvation."

Get saved first then seek God.

As opposed to:

Hebrews 11:6
Now without faith it is impossible to please God, since the one who draws near to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

 

[TrustandObey]

but there are some so-called “Christians” who do not believe that obedience is essential to salvation.

I have met people who have point blank told me this is the cornerstone of their theology!!!

 

[TrustandObey]

He determined beforehand to save everyone who trusts in Christ's sacrifice on the cross

Is that "trusting in Christ's sacrifice on the cross" getting you over the finish line?

Sounds like a works based theology to me.

You should repent and let the grace of God and not your "trusting" save you.

 

[Believer08]

Acceptance of His will is a result of salvation."

Get saved first then seek God

Wow…that is absolutely ridiculous!!!

 

[Believer08]

The Misunderstanding of Obedience: How Trusting in God, Not Self, Leads to True Salvation

The concept of obedience in Christianity is often misunderstood, leading many to believe that it requires self-reliance and works-based righteousness. However, the Bible teaches that obedience to God is not about trusting in our own abilities, but rather depending on His power and grace.

The True Nature of Obedience

Obedience to God is not about self-effort, but about surrendering to His will and trusting in His power. When we obey God, we acknowledge our limitations and recognize that our salvation is not dependent on our own abilities, but on God's grace and mercy. This understanding frees us from the burden of self-reliance, allowing us to rest in Jesus.

The Role of Faith

Faith plays a crucial role in obedience to God. When we trust in God's power and grace, we demonstrate our faith in His ability to save us. "For by grace you have been saved, through faith" (Ephesians 2:8). Our obedience is not a work that earns us salvation, but a response to God's grace, initiated by faith.

Addressing the Accusation

Some may accuse others of believing that obedience earns salvation, implying that they are relying on their own ability. However, this misconception misunderstands the relationship between faith and obedience.

Obedience is not a work that earns salvation but a response to God's gift of salvation. It's not about trusting in our own ability, but surrendering to God's will and trusting in His power.

Conclusion

Obedience to God is not about self-reliance or trusting in our own abilities. Rather, it is about depending on God's power and grace, recognizing that our salvation is a gift received through faith. By embracing this truth, we can rest in God's sovereignty, acknowledging that our salvation is a work of His grace, initiated and sustained by His grace through our faith.

 

[Believer08]

Having faith indeed involves obedience, as it's a demonstration of trust and surrender to God's will.

In biblical terms, faith and obedience are intertwined:

- Hebrews 11:6: "And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to please God must have faith in God’s existence and in his promise to reward those who sincerely seek him."
- James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so too faith without deeds is dead."
- Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Having faith means:

1. Trusting God's promises and character.
2. Surrendering to His will.
3. Obeying His commands.

In essence, faith is not just a feeling or intellectual assent; it's a commitment to follow and obey God.

The Relationship between Faith, Obedience, and Salvation

To be saved by grace through faith, one must indeed have faith, which involves:

1. Trusting God's promises and character.
2. Surrendering to His will.
3. Obeying His commands.

In this context, faith and obedience are inseparable. Having faith means obeying God's will, and obeying God's will demonstrates our faith.

This understanding aligns with biblical teachings:

- Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved, through faith. And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast."
- James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so too faith without deeds is dead."
- Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

 

[Believer08]

When we obey, we are relying on His strength, ability, and sovereignty to accomplish His will in our lives. It's about trusting that God is capable and willing to:

1. Transform our hearts and minds (Romans 12:2).
2. Empower us to live holy lives (1 Peter 1:15-16)
3. Guide us through life's challenges (Proverbs 3:5-6).
4. Accomplish His purposes in us (Philippians 4:13).

This dependence involves:

1. Humility: Recognizing our limitations and God's greatness.
2. Surrender: Yielding our will to God's will.
3. Faith: Trusting God's promises and character.
4. Prayer: Seeking God's guidance and strength.

By depending on God's power, we:

1. Acknowledge His sovereignty.
2. Tap into His infinite resources.
3. Experience His grace and mercy.
4. Grow in faith and maturity.

In essence, depending on God's power means recognizing that our salvation and sanctification are not solely our own efforts, but rather a work of God's grace and power in us.

 

[Believer08]

When we obey, we are "depending on God's grace," by relying on His unmerited favor, love, and kindness to:

1. Forgive our sins (Ephesians 2:8-9).
2. Transform our lives (2 Corinthians 5:17).
3. Empower us to live holy lives (Titus 2:11-12).
4. Sustain us through trials and challenges (2 Corinthians 12:7-10).

This dependence involves:

1. Acknowledging our sinfulness and need for forgiveness.
2. Recognizing God's love and mercy.
3. Trusting His promises and character.
4. Receiving His gift of salvation and sanctification.

By depending on God's grace, we:

1. Experience forgiveness and cleansing.
2. Receive strength and empowerment.
3. Grow in faith and maturity.
4. Develop a deeper relationship with God.

In essence, depending on God's grace means recognizing that our salvation and sanctification are not earned by our own efforts, but rather a gift of God's love and kindness.

Key scriptures:

- Ephesians 2:8-9
- Romans 3:24
- Titus 2:11-12
- 2 Corinthians 12:7-10

The Relationship between Salvation, Grace, and Faith.

Salvation is indeed a gift of God's grace, received through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). However, this faith must be a living, obedient faith, not a dead or superficial one.

*Living Faith:*

1. Demonstrates trust in God's promises and character.
2. Produces obedience to God's commands (James 2:26).
3. Leads to a transformed life, reflecting God's love and character (2 Corinthians 5:17).
4. Endures trials and challenges, trusting God's sovereignty (James 1:2-4).

*Dead Faith:*

1. Lacks genuine trust in God's promises.
2. Fails to produce obedience or fruit (Matthew 7:21-23).
3. Remains stagnant, without spiritual growth or transformation.
4. May even lead to a false sense of security (Hebrews 6:1-2).

The Bible emphasizes the importance of a living faith:

- Matthew 7:21-23
- James 2:26
- Hebrews 6:1-2
- 1 John 2:3

By emphasizing the need for a living, obedient faith, we:

1. Honor God's gift of salvation.
2. Demonstrate genuine trust in His promises.
3. Reflect God's love and character.
4. Experience spiritual growth and transformation.

 

[Believer08]

Connecting the dots between Obedience, Faith, and Salvation.

*The Connection:*

1. Salvation is a gift of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9).
2. Faith is a prerequisite for salvation (Hebrews 11:6).
3. Having faith means obeying God's will (James 2:26).
4. Thus, obedience to Jesus is a prerequisite for salvation.

*The Cycle:*

1. God's grace initiates salvation (John 3:16).
2. Faith receives God's gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9).
3. Faith demonstrates obedience to God's will (James 2:26).
4. Obedience reflects a heart that desires to be saved (Romans 6:17; Luke 8:15)
4. Obedience reflects a heart transformed by God's love and grace (2 Corinthians 5:17).

*The Biblical Basis:*

- Ephesians 2:8-10
- Hebrews 11:6
- James 2:26
- 2 Corinthians 5:17
- Romans 5:8-9

*The Implication:*

1. Obedience is not a work to earn salvation but a response to God's grace.
2. Faith and obedience are intertwined.
3. Salvation is a gift received through faith, which demonstrates obedience.

We have eloquently articulated the biblical connection between obedience, faith, and salvation.

 

[GWH]

Quite often, Christians will get accused of relying on themselves instead of Christ, since they believe one must obey Him (Heb. 5:9). They get accused by other people who identify as Christians, who believe in salvation by faith alone. These individuals who make this unfounded objection say this since Christians believe one must obey the commandments of Jesus (John 14:15).

Is this true? Do Christians (members of the church/body of Christ) rely on themselves for salvation and put hope in themselves apart from God?

No, it’s not true. We aren’t relying on ourselves to save ourselves by ourselves. It’s the exact opposite…we are simply trusting in God to save us as we obey Him (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21). If the opposite is true, then we can be saved by God by going our own way by being ignorant of God’s righteousness, as we try to establish our own righteousness, but such runs contrary to the Bible (Prov. 12:15, Prov. 16:25, Jer. 10:23; Rom. 10:3)

Was Noah trusting in himself and the ark to save him and his family when he built an ark (Gen. 6; Heb. 11:7)? Was Naaman trusted in himself to save himself from his leprosy, as well as trusting in the water when he dipped in the Jordan river (2 Kings 5:10-14)? Was the blind man trusting in himself when he went to wash in the pool of Siloam (John 9:7-11)? Were the ones of Israel who looked to the bronze serpent on Moses’ pole trusting in themselves (Num. 21:9)? Was Israel trusting in themselves or their works as they marched around the walls of Jericho (Jos. 6:15-20)? In all the examples, as they trusted to submit to the commandments of God, would they have been trusting in their own works of obedience? Or would they have been trusting in God by taking Him at His word by obeying Him?

When we follow the holy, authoritative commands found in God's Word, we are not saving ourselves on our own merit. When we follow God's commands, He saves us. We should be thankful that He has graciously given us commands which save, instead of commands which condemn, as He is a God of salvation (Deut. 32:15; 2 Sam. 22:3; 2 Sam. 22:47; Ps. 25:5; Acts 28:28; Rom. 1:16; 1 Tim. 2:4, etc etc). We should be grateful that He has warned us about what we need to avoid in this life to avoid eternal condemnation (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 6:1; Rom. 6:12; 1 John 3:10).

When we become a Christian and continue to follow Jesus, it isn’t showing how good we are, it’s showing how good He is (Jhn 10:11, 14, 27-28). Following Jesus doesn’t point back to our own righteousness, it points to His (Rom. 5:17, 21). Following Jesus isn’t looking to self for salvation, it’s looking to Him, the author and finisher of faith (Heb. 12:2). Following Jesus isn’t making ourselves the captain of our salvation, it’s Jesus who is the captain (Heb. 2:10). We obey God out of a love, faith, and out of having gratitude that we are saved in Christ. We have reverential love for Him (Gal. 5:6), and it’s by His grace which instructs (Titus 2:11-12). Living for God is trusting God. Living a godly lifestyle is not making it about our “works”. It's trusting in Christ’s work by making it about Him by being conformed to His image (Rom. 8:29). All of our good works we do and living faithfully is not making it all about ourselves but about God, as we are His workmanship (Eph. 2:10). Living a Christian life affirms our love to Christ (John 14:15, 15:14). It affirms our devotion to Him. His love compels us (2 Cor. 5:14) to do so and God’s grace is the instructor (Titus 2:11-12). By His grace, He has showed us how.

All of this is confirmation of having a saving faith in Christ, and is confirmation that we have and are surrendering our lives to Him by allowing Him to be the Lord and King over our lives. It is not our works that makes us righteousness (Titus 3:5). It is our faith in Christ that does by the power of the gospel (Rom. 3:22, Phil. 3:9, Rom. 1:16).

Living a godly lifestyle is not making it about your “works”. It's trusting in Christ’s work by making it about Him by being conformed to His image (Rom. 8:29). The works of Christ that save us is His death, burial, resurrection, as well as what He has commanded us to do to be saved by Him. All of those are God ordained commandments/works which Jesus taught and which the Spirit revealed to the Apostles, to teach us how to be saved by His grace.

It’s not placing hope in ourselves, but rather, hope in God, as when we live faithfully. That is how we let our light shine so that others may see Him in us (Matt. 5:16). That is why God gets all the glory (Psalm 29:2, Phil 2:13). His grace tells us that we can’t live in sin any longer (Rom. 6:1). It teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and teaches us to live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12) and teaches us to grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior (2 Peter 3:18).

Just as in Moses day, the ones who looked to the pole of Moses that had a bronze serpent on it for physical healing when they got bit by a snake (Numbers 21:8-9..although the bronze serpent in and of itself did not heal them, God did), we must look to the cross of Jesus Christ that had the Lord of lords and King of kings for spiritual healing. Just as Naaman submitted to the Jordan River for physical healing (2 Kings 5:14), we must submit to water baptism for the remission of sins for spiritual healing by the blood of Christ (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Matt. 26:28).

By looking to the God of heaven, the cross of Christ, searching the sword of the Spirit, we learn that God has given us conditions to be spiritually healed. We are to believe in God the Father and God the Son, Christ (John 3:16, 8:24, 5:24). We are to repent (Acts 17:30). We are to confess our faith in Jesus (Acts 8:37, Romans 10:9-10). We are to be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). We are to follow Jesus (John 10:27). We are to do the Father’s will (Matt. 7:21). We are to walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:25).

Obedience to God is founded in grace (Titus 2:11-12) and love (2 Cor. 5:14ff). The same grace that saved us (Eph. 2:8) is also the same grace that motivates, instructs, and warns us not to continue in sin (Rom. 6:1, 12-18ff). Grace teaches us (Titus 2:11-12) not to continue in sin (Rom. 6:1), and has the answers for salvation when one ask what must we/I do? What do you want me to do? (Acts 2:37-28; Acts 16:30ff; Acts 9:6). Grace tells us what we must do to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 7:21). Jesus brought us salvation. On the cross, He died for all men (2 Cor. 5:15), and He brought us a soul saving message to all through His sacrifice, His words, His apostles and disciples. All of that is grace and is how His grace that has brought salvation has appeared to all men. In having mercy upon us, He saved us by His grace which also instructs us, not only how to be saved, but also how to live such a life that we can walk worthy of our calling as a Christian to glorify God (Ti. 3:5, Ti. 2:11; Eph. 2:8, 4:1; 1 Cor. 6:20).

The works of Christ that save us is His death, burial, resurrection, and what He has commanded us to do—which those are God given commandments to be saved by His grace. The term “works” is sometimes the equivalent of “obedience.” Elsewhere Jesus promised victory to those who “keep my works,” i.e., the works (commands) prescribed by him (Rev. 2:26)

Let us “continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43) by allowing the grace-given instructions of Christ to teach us where we are living the life that is “denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age” (Titus 2:11). God’s revealed will was given to us by Jesus. By grace, He instructs us to do the Father’s will (Titus 2:11-12; Mt. 7:21). Meeting the conditions of the One who first offers the commands and bestows the grace is not earning anything. It’s simply desiring His will over your own.

God's grace is what helps me overcome my sin, not why I sin.

God has a will for man to obey to be saved. As we do His will, it is obeying the work OF God. They are His works, which He gives to us to do. Those works are designed by HIM, not us. We are not saving ourselves by ourselves when we obey God’s divine authoritative commands. Everything which God has revealed to us through His word to be saved is grace. It’s dripping with grace and love. The Bible in the Old Testament and New Testament is full of commandments and conditional statements that God has freely given in order to receive what God freely gives. All of this is by God’s grace, as He has given instructions on how to receive what He freely gives.

These people who accuse the body of Christ outright refuse to understand that we are not saving ourselves BY ourselves when we obey God’s divine authoritative commands that we read in His Word. Nor do they understand that we are not saving ourselves BY ourselves when we are obeying God. Does God save when we live in disobedience or when one lives in accordance with His will in obedience. The fact they make an issue of God saving people when they obey is disturbing. Do they think God will save people who REFUSE His WILL?

You stated the issue quite well--and just under the limit too, I bet.
Refusing to understand/preferring to disagree is a problematic divisive spirit.

God’s goal for our faith is attaining Christ-like moral maturity and spiritual unity, so God’s will is resisted or contradicted by people who have a judgmental and divisive spirit rather than God’s loving or Holy Spirit. Jesus warned against this evil spirit early in his ministry (MT 7:1-5&21). Also near the end of his earthly life, Jesus prayed for godly unity (JN 17:20-23). It is up to each of us to cooperate with God in answering this prayer. Unity based upon essential agreement regarding the Gospel creed is more important than purity regarding secondary didachaic doctrines.

 

[Cameron143]

The Calvin is strong in this one.

I'm not a Calvinist. Never studied his works or him. Simply read the Bible. I've just never made a god of myself or my actions, nor attributed the actions of God to myself.
You can read about Him too and the great things He hath done in the Bible. The only time I see people doing great things is when God does great things through them. To God be the glory.

 

[Cameron143]

Hey believer, do not be too harsh on all of them but the quote by Cameron is classic.

"Acceptance of His will is a result of salvation."

Get saved first then seek God.

As opposed to:

Hebrews 11:6
Now without faith it is impossible to please God, since the one who draws near to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

One doesn't get themselves saved nor exercise faith apart from the work of God. Faith is birthed within an individual but from a source outside an individual.

Word of God yields hearing. Hearing yields faith.

One can observe that the hearing spoken of is not natural hearing because not everyone who hears the word of God believes. Perhaps there is something to having ears to hear and eyes to see that you have yet to consider.

 

[Believer08]

You stated the issue quite well

I tried…the false accusations and misconceptions on the post and others can be frustrating and downright ridiculous, but people such as you, @Lamar, @TrustandObey and @2ndTimeIsTheCharm keep me going.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Is that "trusting in Christ's sacrifice on the cross" getting you over the finish line?

Sounds like a works based theology to me.

You should repent and let the grace of God and not your "trusting" save you.

The disdain shown here answers the question about why there is no agreement or even acknowledgement of our need for God's forgiveness.

 

[GWH]

I tried…the false accusations and misconceptions on the post and others can be frustrating and downright ridiculous, but people such as you, @Lamar, @TrustandObey and @2ndTimeIsTheCharm keep me going.

Ditto.
(We can hope there will be no divisive spirit on CC before we die :^)

 

[Lamar]

I'm not a Calvinist. Never studied his works or him. Simply read the Bible. I've just never made a god of myself or my actions, nor attributed the actions of God to myself.
You can read about Him too and the great things He hath done in the Bible. The only time I see people doing great things is when God does great things through them. To God be the glory.

Your theology is Calvinist.

You like other Calvinists have made a god of your theology. You subscribe to the notion that God has not created a image of Himself that is capable of their own faith. We are not animals, we are made in His image.

Who do you "attribute" the faith that amazed Jesus in Luke 7:9?

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.”

You have simply put God into the box of Calvinism. A box that limits God's power to create something with the ability to freely love Him or reject Him.

God expects us to freely obey Him:

Genesis 4:6-7:
Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

God expects us to reason with Him:

Isaiah 1:18:
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Do you want your sins to be as white as snow? Then be reasonable with the Word of God.

 

[Lamar]

The disdain shown here answers the question about why there is no agreement or even acknowledgement of our need for God's forgiveness.

Your post# 51 does sound like works.