a born-again Christian can never (keyword: never) lose their salvation

[BibletruthSOP]

Even for psychologically scary verses in Matthew 10 where it keeps saying "not worthy of Jesus"?

Don't forget about the righteousness of the saints (revelation)

 

[TLC209]

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Would God glorify an unfruitful person? I mean think about it. Theres no glory in sin. Or lets just say he is just unfruitful but does not sin. What honor is there in that for God? Our lives belong to God now that we are in Christ.

You said: Obedience which follows is works. The error of "defining" believing as "obedience/works" results in salvation by works.

I dont understand how doing works for the Lord is seen as works for salvation? Jesus served others. We are to be servants of God. Thats if you belong to Him. So do us as servants who serve and do Gods will, does that constitute as works to you? Does bearing fruit/works evidence of a persons faith contrary to your belief?

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Among many in the church I know it does. Most in the church can only understand the necessity for works to mean works earn justification/salvation. It's so bad in the church right now that many think to purposely do something right is wrong because that would be 'works' (you trying to earn your own salvation). The thinking is, right things just have to happen by themselves or else it's you trying to earn your own salvation. Think I'm kidding?

Legalism: covers a whole lot and is expressed in all sorts of ways but the overall reality is that legalism is always present where the salvation is claimed but keeping of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus is lacking, to whatever degree.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

This is a point of disagreement between Calvinists and Armenians. Calvinists agree with you but Armenians disagree with you.

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to this web site,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

TULIP is a dishonor to God in so many ways. It is amazing that bible readers in this day could ever fall for such beliefs

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Yes please use the word of God to back up your points or they hold no power. It is written, thus says the word.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I see that being born again is a requirement for the kingdom of Heaven, but nothing that states that you can never fall or reject the Spirit.

On the Day of Pentecost, when, convicted of sin, they cried out, "What shall we do?" The first word of Peter's answer was, "Repent." Acts 2:37, 38. At another time, shortly after, he said, "Repent, . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out." Acts 3:19.
Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. Unless we see its sinfulness; until we turn away from it in heart, there will be no real change in the life.

David needed to repent, he saw the enormity of his transgression; he saw the defilement of his soul; he loathed his sin. It was not for pardon only that he prayed, but for purity of heart.

If David did not choose to repent, the saving relationship would have been lost.

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord
imputeth not iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no guile."
Psalm 32:1, 2.
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to
Thy loving-kindness:
According unto the multitude of Thy tender
mercies blot out my transgressions. . . .
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my
sin is ever before me. . . .
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. . . .

S2C

 

[BibletruthSOP]

After much prayer and seeking the truth, God has led me to a Reformed Baptist Calvinist Church.

I visited many different denominations and carefully studied the Bible, compared all of the various Church confessions and God led me to believe that the Reformed Church is the closest to the New Testament Church.

In the begging Calvinism sounded unbiblical and it made God look unfair, but after considering the whole counsel of God it became clear that it was the most Biblically accurate position of all. Only a saved person can understand the truth of the Gospel, no amount of human reasoning or wisdom can unveil the truth, only God can reveal the truth to a believer.

For God so loved the world
What the cross accomplished, it accomplished for every human being
God wants (his will) that all be saved and none lost
Come, let us reason together
And on and on. The very thought that God arbitrarily saves and destroys is anathema to the God of Love

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Um No, Its not even close, Salvation is not like losing an arm.

If I can lose salvation, It means I must work to maintain my salvation, Thus salvation becomes a reward. And is not a gift. Paul mentions this when he calls the galations FOOLS for thinkinfg they are saved by the spirit, but must PERFECT that salvation in the flesh.

If Salvation is not of works, No amount of work I do or do not do could ever take that salvation away from me.

If I can lose salvation, it means I must Let (consent for) Jesus to maintain my salvation. .

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Hi again @BibletruthSOP, I'm afraid that I'm still a bit confused about what you believe (since you seemed to say, in essence, that STOP SINNING was the Gospel in your earlier post .. though I realize that I've probably misunderstood what you were trying to say in one way or another).

>Remember, when Jesus sent the disciples out to preach the GOSPEL way before Jesus was crucified on calvary? What were they preaching..what gospel?...they certainly were not preaching Jesus death on the cross....they were clueless that their master was going to be crucified...what gospel were they preaching...the same gospel as john the Baptist....the lamb, messiah has come, quit sinning, etc.

Perhaps we are on the same page however, and simply use different terminology to explain the same thing? So if you don't mind, let's see if we can figure out how close .. or far apart .. we are.

For instance, I would say that the omni-temporal "News" from God is this, a person needs to be inherently innocent and righteous to stand in His presence in the age to come (well, left to our own devices anyway, IOW, outside of Christ). My understanding of "innocent" in this case is that a person NEVER does anything wrong, ever. And my understanding of "righteous" is that a person never fails to do the good that needs to be done, IOW, never fails to do the will of God, perfectly.

Agree?/Disagree? (if you disagree, please explain why you do .. thanks!)
> I tend to encourage people to read what I call "goal of the gospel verses" such as Romans 12: 1-2; Romans 8: 1-2; Ephesians 4:13, and 1 John 4:17, and there are dozens others. I ask them to just read/study those verses for a day or two as they will put a bulwark of truth around the subject of the gospel.

Now, the "bad news" is this:

1. no one is either innocent or righteous, in and of themselves .. e.g. Romans 3:10-12, 23; Ephesians 2:1-3 and,​

2. no one, apart from Christ, can become either innocent or righteous, nor do we have the ability to atone for the sins we've committed (which is why the punishment for sin outside of Christ is eternal, because no one can fully atone for their own sins, ever).​

Agree?/Disagree? (again, if you disagree, please tell me why you do)
> It sounds like you have read some of my comments. I do not know how I can be any clearer . Repeating: The gospel is pardon and power, forgiveness and restoration, cleansing/new life, etc. If we do not have the faith that will stop us from sinning, we do not have the faith that can be taken to eternal life. At Jesus second coming God is not going to turn a screw in our head so that now we are a sinless robot. Longer story short: the bible is absolutely clear that Jesus must reign in us in righteousness...there can be no partial Jesus management and partial personal management. We must 100% empty ourselves of self or the gospel can never be true for us. Now the blow. WE CANNOT empty SELF of SELF. So what is the bible solution? We can only CONSENT for Christ to do the work (Christ knocking on the door seeking entry). When we start to realize what we are, we will 100% realize that if anything is to foundationally change, it will not be through our own effort, but through the merits and power of Jesus..... Christ within, the hope of glory. Personally, talk to Jesus, realize your complete helplessness, and ask from Him faith, and to take your life, your mind, and mold it to His image.

Regarding atoning for our sin: "The wages of sin is death (eternal death)". Replace that word eternal death with any other word/idea and you have not understood the gospel concerning the sacrificial element of the atonement. Understanding that simple verse makes it impossible to think that there is or could be some kind of atonement power, or thought, word, or deed within or coming from a sinner that can be atoning...what could any mind come up with? Its eternal death, no other possibility.


Finally, the "Good News" is that the Father has chosen to mercifully/graciously save certain

( I would delete the word certain)

sinners on the basis of faith/belief in Jesus, and in the works He did for us/on our behalf when He walked among us (His life, and His death on the Cross, and His Resurrection). God accomplished this for us by crediting/imputing our sins to His Son's account, and by crediting His Son's righteousness to ours .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Also, considering who Jesus is, as well the fact that He was/is perfectly innocent and righteous, His death was more than adequate to atone for our sins, and to satisfy His Father's wrath against us in the age to come .. cf Romans 5:8-10. Therefore Jesus is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement and satisfaction for our sins.

Agree?/Disagree?



Thanks!

~Deut

 

[Guojing]

Calvinism is the most Biblically correct of all the views out there, that's why only the elect accept it. The Word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing, they will never figure it out. It will remain foolishness to the end, so we believe that faith is a gift from God and He only gives it to those He foreknew.
It wouldn't matter how many scriptures I show you that support Calvin's view, you would still deny them if you are not one of the elect.

Nice to have a reformed Baptist in the house. Do you guys feel that, for people who disagree with your idea of limited atonement, are they also part of the elected? Are they saved, in your opinion?

 

[Bingo]

"And...dependent on God 'alone' for provision."
'Praise God'

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Um No, Its not even close, Salvation is not like losing an arm.

If I can lose salvation, It means I must work to maintain my salvation, Thus salvation becomes a reward. And is not a gift. Paul mentions this when he calls the galations FOOLS for thinkinfg they are saved by the spirit, but must PERFECT that salvation in the flesh.

If Salvation is not of works, No amount of work I do or do not do could ever take that salvation away from me.

Here is a big mistake. You can only lose something you possess.
Salvation is not dying in the second death, the lake of fire. As the lake of fire does not exist today,
and the second death has not taken place, salvation has not happened.

What we can lose is our walk with Christ. The walk to eternal life is by the gate and the narrow path.
By definition the gate is small and the path narrow, so both can be missed.

So all we can do is define what it means to be in Christ, what are the signs of our place on the path,
and what can we encourage to continue on the path.

Our hearts do they rejoice in God? Does His law and His word encourage us to walk deeper or get
angry and want to curse and rip people up?

To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, Mark 12:33
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' Luke 10:27
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind Matt 22:36
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deut 6:5

We are called to be devoted to God with everything that we are.

1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deut 13:1-3

If God is not in our hearts, has not become the core of our being then we know were
the problem lies.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

a born-again Christian can never lose their salvation

to illustrate: a child can ask "what does born mean?", or "what does being physically born mean?" even though the child is already physically born, in the same way, just because a Christian can ask "what does receive mean?" just because of the mere difficulty in understanding it, and nothing else. Even with confusion in terminologies, Christians can still be saved.

if a child forgot his/her physical birthday, does that mean the child was never physically born to begin with? that's absurd. The same way, even if Christians forgot the day of their salvation, they can still be saved

for a married couple, if they are unable to make the vow the same way they did at the wedding, does that mean that they cease to be married? Definitely not, since that's not "grounds for divorce" and God hates divorce anyway. The same way, even if you are unable to pray the sinner's prayer like you did on the day of salvation you can still be saved.

if there's fights and arguments in marriage, does that mean that the married couple cease to be married? Again, for the same reason that you will have ups and downs in your walk with Jesus, but still, you can still be saved.

if a seedling bear no fruit, does that mean that ... ok, you get my point, it takes time to bear fruits, but still, you can still be saved.

any more illustrations will be more than welcomed in this thread, thank you

Unbelief is so common on forums such as this.
A tell tale sign is is the following statements :-

1 the church has got it wrong.
2 Theologians do not know what they are talking about.
3 We do not need paid ministers, or churches, or fellowships, we can survive without aids or helps.
4 I have faith, you self righteous hypocrites will rot in hell.
5 Most of the bible is rubbish, I believe this perfect ...... part
6 The heart is desperately wicked and nothing good comes from anyone
7 I have a revelation specially from God and the past ..... years the church has been wrong and lost

Being saved is having Gods word planted in our hearts through the witness of His church.
How the word grows to produce more words of God to pass on to others, is the growth of His body.

And maturity or perfection is reflected in the fruit of the Spirit at work in the hearts of His people.
You will meet such people every day in His body and His fellowships, praise the Lord.

And the elect will never fall or fail, but who they are is hidden, because showing this openly would
cause more harm than good, and the enemy can never disturb the work of the Lords word bearing
fruit in the good soil. So simply walk in the Spirit ministering love and peace to all you meet, Amen.

22 the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:22-24

 

[mailmandan]

Would God glorify an unfruitful person? I mean think about it. Theres no glory in sin. Or lets just say he is just unfruitful but does not sin. What honor is there in that for God? Our lives belong to God now that we are in Christ.

All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

You said: Obedience which follows is works. The error of "defining" believing as "obedience/works" results in salvation by works.

Amen! I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then he contradicted himself by making this statement below in blue:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about the RCC does not teach salvation by works, then faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation by faith (his version of faith) plus works.

I dont understand how doing works for the Lord is seen as works for salvation?

It depends on our motivation for doing works. Doing works as a believer done out of love and gratitude for the Lord are not works for salvation, but are produced after salvation. In Ephesians 2:8-9, the apostle Paul makes it clear that we are saved through faith, not works, then in verse 10 he goes on to explain that we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. There is a big difference between saved FOR good works and saved BY good works. Unbelievers trust in works for salvation and NOT in Christ alone.

Jesus served others. We are to be servants of God. Thats if you belong to Him. So do us as servants who serve and do Gods will, does that constitute as works to you?

Believers are servants of God. There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

Doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Does bearing fruit/works evidence of a persons faith contrary to your belief?

When did I say that bearing fruit/works was not the evidence of a person's faith? Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or evidenced the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[FollowHisSteps]

His argument about the RCC does not teach salvation by works, then faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation by faith (his version of faith) plus works.

Faith or a belief or even a delusion or fantasy needs describing when it is summarised.
Everything to do with God the God of Israel and Jesus Christ of Nazareth is centred around
love and the 10 commandments.

Being a sinner who is saved one has to answer how and to what goal or aim?
And the steps need to be explained and laid out so they can be followed.

Most of the disputes here are around what a believer can become in the Spirit, what
born again means and being filled with the Spirit, and thereby what losing this would
look like.

If one has an eternal spirit, which is gained through a faith transaction with Christ,
then obviously this can never be lost. But equally if this eternal spirit appears no matter
the variations of faith, then arguing about these variations is pointless.

The danger is we are not christians discussing a common experience, but differing
faiths using the same bible to interpret our view of God and how we know Him.

So the protestant church may be closer to the faith of the RCC than some here, and some
here may have closer links to non-christian groups than one might imagine.

So gaining salvation and what you believe this is, determines your ideas about its losability
or otherwise. It is ironic when some will claim they know faith, while being so extreme most
bible believing churches would exclude them as heretics.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey you hit it dead on. Why are we gonna promote the blind leading the blind (osas). .

Yep this really proves your point!

Woohoo. You go boy, Have fun EARNING your salvation.

For us blind people who depend SOLELY on Christ to save us because we can see just enough to know and understand our works are as filthy rags, and we can not saved by our own righteousness and have fallen as the Tax Collector and repented and called out to God to save us, We went home justified, and will CONTINUE to trust in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I can lose salvation, it means I must Let (consent for) Jesus to maintain my salvation. .

Well lets get serious here man

Can you maintain your own salvation?

Think about that

Before you supposedly came to christ, You could not do enough to earn salvation. You had to rely on Jesus to save you. Now that you think you have been saved Why do you think you now have the power to maintain your salvation? By what means? By works? Well scripture says your works are as filthy rags so it can’t be that, so what can it be?

Good luck trying to maintain your salvation. As for me? John shows me truth, You know him I think, he wrote a whole book telling us all about God and what he has and is doing for us, And he did it ALL to PROVE to us we HAVE eternal life. And by this TRUTH, we can rest in. Him, and continue to believe in his name.

So yes. WE HAVE TO TRUST CHRIST TO MAINTAIN OUR SALVATION.

If he does not, we are lost.. And he promises UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE will he ever let us go.. If your son was trying to jump off a cliff to kill himself. Would you let him go. Or would you hold on for dear life, risking your own life in the process?

Thats what God does for his children..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nice to have a reformed Baptist in the house. Do you guys feel that, for people who disagree with your idea of limited atonement, are they also part of the elected? Are they saved, in your opinion?

Thats a 9 month post.

 

[T_Laurich]

Nice to have a reformed Baptist in the house. Do you guys feel that, for people who disagree with your idea of limited atonement, are they also part of the elected? Are they saved, in your opinion?

Thats a 9 month post.

Well let's get started on this baby!!!
Make a new thread

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Yup. They definitely thought they were saved. BUT NOT BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!! Instead by THEIR WORKS to attain or maintain Salvation.

Note they didn't say "Lord, Lord, didn't we trust in You and Your work?"

LoL. "Yup. they definitely thought they were saved." That's the point. Your circular reasoning this. Basically your saying if someone says they are saved and later repudiate Christ that they were really not ever saved, at least certainly not by the blood of Christ. My personal experience has been that many once evangelical OSAS professors have openly repudiated Christ and the main reason seemed always to be about money in some way. And you now would claim, well they were not really saved, certainly not OSAS, even though at one point they strongly proclaimed the OSAS philosophy . And that's just the point. They, when proclaiming their OSAS, hadn't yet lived "tomorrow". One of the serious dangers of OSAS mindset is presumption. An incident I have never forgotten happened several years ago at a weekly early morning bible study (at a restaurant across from the train station; before the train left to go downtown Chicago to work). About 8-12 men normally attended. I was one of them. During the bible study, verses about prayer, one of the youngest men (mid 20s) said since he got saved (it was a OSAS believing church and most of the people there were of OSAS churches) he didn't pray anymore. His pastor was there and the pastor was visibly taken aback. Some of the men started telling the young man about the necessity of prayer, a relationship with God, rewards, etc. The young man basically said. Relax guys, I am perfectly content, I don't need crowns and rewards. I will be in heaven no matter what. COMPLETE SILENCE. Every one knew the young man was 100% correct if OSAS is correct. There was Nothing they could say and the general discomfort was palatable for the rest of the study time, not from the young man, but from the others. OSAS is a delusion of Satan to put people in the "lost" category, as Satan knows the only thing that gets one lost is sin, and these poor people come to a mindset where sin doesn't REALLY matter anymore for them.

 

[BibletruthSOP]

Would God glorify an unfruitful person? I mean think about it. Theres no glory in sin. Or lets just say he is just unfruitful but does not sin. What honor is there in that for God? Our lives belong to God now that we are in Christ.

You said: Obedience which follows is works. The error of "defining" believing as "obedience/works" results in salvation by works.

I dont understand how doing works for the Lord is seen as works for salvation? Jesus served others. We are to be servants of God. Thats if you belong to Him. So do us as servants who serve and do Gods will, does that constitute as works to you? Does bearing fruit/works evidence of a persons faith contrary to your belief?

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

I believe one of the works Jesus asks of us (among many) is to go into all the world preaching the gospel to make disciples of Jesus.
Of course if your OSAS all that is irrelevant if you so choose.