50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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No, of course I don't believe that. Untold millions of human spirits with souls are in heaven now, awaiting their time of resurrection: The dead in Christ first, about 7 years later the Old Testament saints.
You are in contradiction to Paul telling us that to be absent with the body is present with the Lord. To date COUNTLESS people have made that trip to heaven, then been prayed back to the physical body. Just as further proof that Paul was spot on.
You are in contradiction to Paul telling us that to be absent with the body is present with the Lord. To date COUNTLESS people have made that trip to heaven, then been prayed back to the physical body. Just as further proof that Paul was spot on.
Sorry, but this theory is myth, and not according to the scriptures.
There is not one hint in their description that they are the martyrs. On the other hand, there are many hints that they are the just raptured church. Paul said his rapture would come just before wrath, and in Revelation wrath starts at the 6th seal - so the rapture will happen between the 5th and 6th seals. Then the church seen in heaven right after that. It all lines up.
Don't be led astray by the word great: it is used here for the 2000 years of tribulation the church has had to put up with. As Jesus said, we WILL have tribulation. In this case the tribulation is great, not because of intensity but because of 2000 years.
Next, if you believe and understand John, at this point in his narrative he had not even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the days of GT Jesus spoke of that would come after the abomination that will divide the week. This group cannot possibly be martyrs of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. Those martyrs begin showing up in heaven in Rev. 15.
There is not one hint in their description that they are the martyrs. On the other hand, there are many hints that they are the just raptured church. Paul said his rapture would come just before wrath, and in Revelation wrath starts at the 6th seal - so the rapture will happen between the 5th and 6th seals. Then the church seen in heaven right after that. It all lines up.
Don't be led astray by the word great: it is used here for the 2000 years of tribulation the church has had to put up with. As Jesus said, we WILL have tribulation. In this case the tribulation is great, not because of intensity but because of 2000 years.
Next, if you believe and understand John, at this point in his narrative he had not even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the days of GT Jesus spoke of that would come after the abomination that will divide the week. This group cannot possibly be martyrs of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. Those martyrs begin showing up in heaven in Rev. 15.
Consider the following (which I have put in past posts):
[similarly...]
Jeremiah 49:36 -
"And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heavens [plural], and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come."
--In Matt24 [to an 'opposite' effect], it also uses this PLURAL "heavens" word... when it states in v.31, "And He will send His angels with a great trumpet call, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens [plural] to the ends thereof [/of them (plural)]."
I had supplied in my post (the very one you had quoted) the correlation regarding "great" [trumpet]... so those verses I quoted in that post WERE my answer (to your Q here)... no need to have read beyond that very post.
[Isa27:12-13 and 11:11-12]
[similarly...]
Jeremiah 49:36 -
"And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heavens [plural], and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come."
--In Matt24 [to an 'opposite' effect], it also uses this PLURAL "heavens" word... when it states in v.31, "And He will send His angels with a great trumpet call, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens [plural] to the ends thereof [/of them (plural)]."
I had supplied in my post (the very one you had quoted) the correlation regarding "great" [trumpet]... so those verses I quoted in that post WERE my answer (to your Q here)... no need to have read beyond that very post.
[Isa27:12-13 and 11:11-12]-
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Lot is prejudgement.
Noah is also.
Neither delivered after the judgement/trib.
Plus Jesus shifts into Noah and that shift is framed in a timeline.
BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Jesus own words. " normal activity we see the world .Noah in that same time frame enters the ark."
AFTER Noah and family enter THEN sudden destruction.
Nothing in there postrib ...nothing
Noah is also.
Neither delivered after the judgement/trib.
Plus Jesus shifts into Noah and that shift is framed in a timeline.
BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Jesus own words. " normal activity we see the world .Noah in that same time frame enters the ark."
AFTER Noah and family enter THEN sudden destruction.
Nothing in there postrib ...nothing
There are at least THREE times in scripture that "one will be taken, and one left."
1. At the rapture those in Christ will be taken and those not in Christ left for sudden destruction.
2. When the 144,000 are called up, one of the group will be called up, another (not a part of that group) will be left behind.
3. At the parable of the tares, one will be taken (for destruction) and the other left.
4. (I was mistaken on the number) When the "elect" are gathered, one will be taken, but one not a part of "the elect" will be left behind.
1. At the rapture those in Christ will be taken and those not in Christ left for sudden destruction.
2. When the 144,000 are called up, one of the group will be called up, another (not a part of that group) will be left behind.
3. At the parable of the tares, one will be taken (for destruction) and the other left.
4. (I was mistaken on the number) When the "elect" are gathered, one will be taken, but one not a part of "the elect" will be left behind.
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I got it! Thanks. But when Jesus said "as the days of Noah, and also said FOR (showing is his point in mentioning Noah) they were living life to the fullest as most people do right up to the day of their destruction. He was speaking of the suddenness and no warning of their destruction. But in both cases, Noah and Lot, they were rescued BEFORE. Good point!
They will be caught up with the rest of the Dead in Christ at the rapture. So they will make up a SMALL PART of that large group too large to number. Their robes were washed when they were born again, just like all believers.
Now for "great tribulation." (GT)
It seems everyone that sees these two words instantly think they must refer to the days of GT Jesus spoke of. The truth is, they don't. For example, how could "tribulation" be any greater for a martyr? They cannot be killed twice.
For another example those committing adultery in Thyatira: way back then: God promised them GT if they did not repent. Did God mean to keep them alive for 2000 years for the GT ahead of us - or did He only mean that He, God, could create GT any time He chose to?
Finally, we MUST pay attention to John's chronology. In Revelation John does not arrive at the days of GT Jesus spoke of until late in chapter 14. Then we see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in chapter 15. What we are talking about is in chapter 7, right after the start of wrath where Paul said his rapture would take place.
What will CAUSE those days of GT Jesus spoke of? It will be the Beast and False Prophet forcing worship of an image and forcing people to take their mark. And they are not on the scene until chapter 13.
For all these reasons, the GT mentioned that these came out of (one by one according to Greek tenses) is the church age. They came out one by one and continuing as each one got born again.
Now for "great tribulation." (GT)
It seems everyone that sees these two words instantly think they must refer to the days of GT Jesus spoke of. The truth is, they don't. For example, how could "tribulation" be any greater for a martyr? They cannot be killed twice.
For another example those committing adultery in Thyatira: way back then: God promised them GT if they did not repent. Did God mean to keep them alive for 2000 years for the GT ahead of us - or did He only mean that He, God, could create GT any time He chose to?
Finally, we MUST pay attention to John's chronology. In Revelation John does not arrive at the days of GT Jesus spoke of until late in chapter 14. Then we see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in chapter 15. What we are talking about is in chapter 7, right after the start of wrath where Paul said his rapture would take place.
What will CAUSE those days of GT Jesus spoke of? It will be the Beast and False Prophet forcing worship of an image and forcing people to take their mark. And they are not on the scene until chapter 13.
For all these reasons, the GT mentioned that these came out of (one by one according to Greek tenses) is the church age. They came out one by one and continuing as each one got born again.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
When is the time of harvest? Harvest will begin with the pretrib rapture and continue on through the 70th week.
When is the time of harvest? Harvest will begin with the pretrib rapture and continue on through the 70th week.
Consider the following (which I have put in past posts):
[similarly...]
Jeremiah 49:36 -
"And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heavens [plural], and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come."
--In Matt24 [to an 'opposite' effect], it also uses this PLURAL "heavens" word... when it states in v.31, "And He will send His angels with a great trumpet call, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens [plural] to the ends thereof [/of them (plural)]."
I had supplied in my post (the very one you had quoted) the correlation regarding "great" [trumpet]... so those verses I quoted in that post WERE my answer (to your Q here)... no need to have read beyond that very post. [Isa27:12-13 and 11:11-12]
[similarly...]
Jeremiah 49:36 -
"And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heavens [plural], and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come."
--In Matt24 [to an 'opposite' effect], it also uses this PLURAL "heavens" word... when it states in v.31, "And He will send His angels with a great trumpet call, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens [plural] to the ends thereof [/of them (plural)]."
I had supplied in my post (the very one you had quoted) the correlation regarding "great" [trumpet]... so those verses I quoted in that post WERE my answer (to your Q here)... no need to have read beyond that very post.
[Isa27:12-13 and 11:11-12]
Lol...no. There is just no way around these Scriptural entries...
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...r-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-91#post-4545060
It doesn't get any clearer than that man. In fact the Church has been raptured even before the Lamb takes the scroll from the Father.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...r-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-91#post-4545060
It doesn't get any clearer than that man. In fact the Church has been raptured even before the Lamb takes the scroll from the Father.
It goes with the understanding of John's chronology. He starts chapter 4 with Christ on earth, then His resurrection, then His ascension back into heaven, then opening the seals to start the church age, then TIME passes as martyrs are killed, then finally the church age ends and the Day of the Lord begins, then the 70th week begins, then the midpoint comes (7th trumpet) and then the end (7th vial), then Jesus returns to armageddon, then the 1000 year reign, then the GWT and then eternity. No flashbacks. No backpeddling. He did use parenthesis to just ahead for the two witnesses and for the Beast and False prophet. He did stop his timeline of the seals, trumpets and vials for intermissions to redo the setting to fit the next act - so to speak.
I said all that to preface this: in chapter 7 the church age has just ended and the day of the Lord has just started, but NO EVENTS yet. John has to "rearrange the set" before he can proceed with the 7th seal that officially starts the 70th week and the first event of God's wrath: trumpet 1.
TWO events MUST take place before the first event of wrath is accomplished: the church must be safely seen in heaven. CHECK! The great crowd. The 144,000 MUST be sealed. Check. Accomplished.
Then the 7th seal is opened to reveal the trumpets.
In comparison, here are the tribulation martyrs:
Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
(The trib' martyrs will begin when the days of GT begin, and they are caused by the Beast and False Prophet that are not even mentioned until chapter 13. )
I said all that to preface this: in chapter 7 the church age has just ended and the day of the Lord has just started, but NO EVENTS yet. John has to "rearrange the set" before he can proceed with the 7th seal that officially starts the 70th week and the first event of God's wrath: trumpet 1.
TWO events MUST take place before the first event of wrath is accomplished: the church must be safely seen in heaven. CHECK! The great crowd. The 144,000 MUST be sealed. Check. Accomplished.
Then the 7th seal is opened to reveal the trumpets.
In comparison, here are the tribulation martyrs:
Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
(The trib' martyrs will begin when the days of GT begin, and they are caused by the Beast and False Prophet that are not even mentioned until chapter 13. )
How is that passage supposed to fit with pre-trib? Don't pretribbers think the sealed members of the tribes are tribulational saints that arise after the rapture?
Revelation 7
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And later in the passage:
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
How is the bolded part reconcilable with pre-trib?
Revelation 7
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And later in the passage:
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
How is the bolded part reconcilable with pre-trib?