50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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2Th2:1 states, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [/even] by our gathering together unto him"
... THAT ^ is "IN THE AIR" (when NO ONE ELSE except "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is involved);
and which verse (v.1's event) is purposely-worded entirely distinctly from that of v.8b, which states,
"... by the manifestation of his coming/parousia/presence" (which IS when EVERY EYE shall see Him, BY CONTRAST... just like 1Tim6:15 says "SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST], Who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" [a phrase used only in Rev19:16 (and 17:14, in reverse order), i.e. at His Second Coming to the earth point-in-time]... ).
When [/ if you can] cease EQUATING what Paul refers to in v.1 to that of what [Subject] the false conveyors were purporting / alleging "IS HERE / IS PRESENT," in v.2, then you will begin to see the distinction between these other two items, also, which Paul is in fact distinguishing (v.1 is NOT what is being described at v.8b--[because] "the man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME, is what intervenes between the two... as does 2Th2:10-12 "God shall SEND TO THEM great DELUSION, THAT *they* [certain ones] should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI...").
... THAT ^ is "IN THE AIR" (when NO ONE ELSE except "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is involved);
and which verse (v.1's event) is purposely-worded entirely distinctly from that of v.8b, which states,
"... by the manifestation of his coming/parousia/presence" (which IS when EVERY EYE shall see Him, BY CONTRAST... just like 1Tim6:15 says "SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST], Who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" [a phrase used only in Rev19:16 (and 17:14, in reverse order), i.e. at His Second Coming to the earth point-in-time]... ).
When [/ if you can] cease EQUATING what Paul refers to in v.1 to that of what [Subject] the false conveyors were purporting / alleging "IS HERE / IS PRESENT," in v.2, then you will begin to see the distinction between these other two items, also, which Paul is in fact distinguishing (v.1 is NOT what is being described at v.8b--[because] "the man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME, is what intervenes between the two... as does 2Th2:10-12 "God shall SEND TO THEM great DELUSION, THAT *they* [certain ones] should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI...").
I agree, there will be one future resurrection of those who died in faith, and that includes the tribulation saints seen in Rev 20:4-6, this is the (First Resurrection) to eternal life
The wicked will take part in the (Second Resurrection) to eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire, also called the (Second Death)
Yes this resurrection of all (John 5:28-29) takes place on the (Last Day) at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Then Cometh The End)
Yes the very scripture presented below, is a proven fact that there will be no future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, with "Mortal Humans" present
The glorified body is received at the future (Second Coming) as death is swallowed up in victory, (Eternity Begins)
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The wicked will take part in the (Second Resurrection) to eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire, also called the (Second Death)
Yes this resurrection of all (John 5:28-29) takes place on the (Last Day) at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Then Cometh The End)
Yes the very scripture presented below, is a proven fact that there will be no future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, with "Mortal Humans" present
The glorified body is received at the future (Second Coming) as death is swallowed up in victory, (Eternity Begins)
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
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Verse 20 had JUST SAID regarding Christ: "But now Christ has been raised out-from [ek] the dead, the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep"
... meaning, the "RANK" (spoken of in v.23) being: been raised "OUT-FROM [ek]" the dead... that is, where others are being left "still-dead" (remaining, yet, in their graves). [this is "RANK #1"... THAT kind... and the others that "fit" into THIS PARTICULAR "RANK" will follow suit, in the SAME WAY/CATEGORY, where others, at that point-in-time, will be "still-dead"... because THIS "RANK" is said to be "OUT-FROM [ek] the dead" (being taken out from the rest who remain, at that point, dead in their graves)]
This is what (v.23) "but EACH [<--a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER / RANK: [1] firstfruit Christ... [2]..."
...but notice in the phrase (v.23) saying "firstfruit Christ"... it just says that, "firstfruit Christ"... it does NOT saying "Christ IS/WAS THE firstfruit" (the phrase in the Greek has NO definite article ['the'] here, nor any other verb, like "is" [such as if it were to say 'Christ IS firstfruit' or similar phrasing...])
... meaning, the "RANK" (spoken of in v.23) being: been raised "OUT-FROM [ek]" the dead... that is, where others are being left "still-dead" (remaining, yet, in their graves). [this is "RANK #1"... THAT kind... and the others that "fit" into THIS PARTICULAR "RANK" will follow suit, in the SAME WAY/CATEGORY, where others, at that point-in-time, will be "still-dead"... because THIS "RANK" is said to be "OUT-FROM [ek] the dead" (being taken out from the rest who remain, at that point, dead in their graves)]
This is what (v.23) "but EACH [<--a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER / RANK: [1] firstfruit Christ... [2]..."
...but notice in the phrase (v.23) saying "firstfruit Christ"... it just says that, "firstfruit Christ"... it does NOT saying "Christ IS/WAS THE firstfruit" (the phrase in the Greek has NO definite article ['the'] here, nor any other verb, like "is" [such as if it were to say 'Christ IS firstfruit' or similar phrasing...])
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Notice this:
Matthew 24:3
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
1 Corinthians 15:23-24
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Christ comes first then the end.
Notice how the end is described after Christ comes.
Matthew 24:37
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
1 Corinthians 15:25
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet
2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
If this happened before the GT then there'd be no place to have a GT at.
Matthew 24:3
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
1 Corinthians 15:23-24
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Christ comes first then the end.
Notice how the end is described after Christ comes.
Matthew 24:37
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
1 Corinthians 15:25
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet
2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
If this happened before the GT then there'd be no place to have a GT at.
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The "IN WHICH" in this text is a very lengthy period of time, just as is the "IN WHICH" in Acts 17:31
(re: "Because He hath FIXED [/established] a day [not merely 'a singular 24-hr day'] IN WHICH He will judge [/govern] the world in righteousness in a Man whom He hath appointed...")
[again, one should read the entire context of BOTH chpts of Isaiah 34 & 35, and not merely 34:4 extracted out-from its context, to ascertain what all is being covered by Peter's words, in 2Pet3]
(re: "Because He hath FIXED [/established] a day [not merely 'a singular 24-hr day'] IN WHICH He will judge [/govern] the world in righteousness in a Man whom He hath appointed...")
[again, one should read the entire context of BOTH chpts of Isaiah 34 & 35, and not merely 34:4 extracted out-from its context, to ascertain what all is being covered by Peter's words, in 2Pet3]
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2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
If this happened before the GT then there'd be no place to have a GT at.
Since the Day may well be over a thousand years, which part of "the DAY" do you imagine the elements melting? I suspect just before the GWT judgment where John tells us the heavens and the earth flee away and there is no place found for them.
Therefore, don't worry or fret: there will be plenty of space for the GT.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
If this happened before the GT then there'd be no place to have a GT at.
Since the Day may well be over a thousand years, which part of "the DAY" do you imagine the elements melting? I suspect just before the GWT judgment where John tells us the heavens and the earth flee away and there is no place found for them.
Therefore, don't worry or fret: there will be plenty of space for the GT.
It's very simple: you don't understand the Greek word that is translated FIRST. It has nothing to do with TIME in this context. It has to do with honor. The same Greek word was also translated as "Chief." In other words, this is the CHIEF of resurrections because it is for all the righteous, INCLUDING Jesus' own resurrection of which He was the firstfruit.
This is a total misunderstanding of this passage. Jesus own resurrection was the first human to take a part of this "first" or chief of all resurrections.
This is really SO SIMPLE, there is no need to misunderstand: there are only TWO titled resurrections. Both are shown in Rev. 20.
1. The "first" or chief of resurrections for all the righteous. Jesus was the firstfruit of this one.
2. The "second death" resurrection after the 1000 years.
All the righteous take part in the first, and all the unrighteous in the second.
This is really SO SIMPLE, there is no need to misunderstand: there are only TWO titled resurrections. Both are shown in Rev. 20.
1. The "first" or chief of resurrections for all the righteous. Jesus was the firstfruit of this one.
2. The "second death" resurrection after the 1000 years.
All the righteous take part in the first, and all the unrighteous in the second.
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, where is a verse that tells us that Jesus will take raptured believers to heaven?
Where is the verse that tells us that from the air Jesus will take the raptured church right back to earth?
Why ask questions that have no answers? I can only guess you want to argue.
the tribulational martyrs will be in the FIRST resurrection. That totally knocks out your theory that there is a previous resurrection. It only shows you lack understanding this verse and term. In this context the Greek word behind "first" is not talking about TIME at all! It is talking about honor.
Question: of the two resurrections listed in Rev. 20, which was was Jesus own resurrection a part of?
So you have a problem. Which you cannot explain. There is no problem except in your own understanding and we have explained it over and over. The problem is not on the explaining end, it is on the understanding what is explained end. In other words, to keep this very simple, it is only you that have problems.
Sp when is "until the restoration of all things.?" When does or will this restoration begin? It cannot be after Jesus coming as shown in 1 Thes. 4.
Where is the verse that tells us that from the air Jesus will take the raptured church right back to earth?
Why ask questions that have no answers? I can only guess you want to argue.
the tribulational martyrs will be in the FIRST resurrection. That totally knocks out your theory that there is a previous resurrection. It only shows you lack understanding this verse and term. In this context the Greek word behind "first" is not talking about TIME at all! It is talking about honor.
Question: of the two resurrections listed in Rev. 20, which was was Jesus own resurrection a part of?
So you have a problem. Which you cannot explain. There is no problem except in your own understanding and we have explained it over and over. The problem is not on the explaining end, it is on the understanding what is explained end. In other words, to keep this very simple, it is only you that have problems.
Sp when is "until the restoration of all things.?" When does or will this restoration begin? It cannot be after Jesus coming as shown in 1 Thes. 4.
Again I beg to differ: the Holy Spirit INSIDE every believer will most certainly go WITH THEM as they are caught up. So you are still mistaken. This in no way says anything about the Holy Spirit anywhere else.
It is absolute truth: a moment after the rapture, the Holy Spirit will not be indwelling millions of people on earth as He is today. Those He is indwelling today will be caught up.
It is absolute truth: a moment after the rapture, the Holy Spirit will not be indwelling millions of people on earth as He is today. Those He is indwelling today will be caught up.
I asked for a verse that proves a posttrib rapture, and you give us this:
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
I see a coming. I see a gathering. BUT I SEE NO TIMING. STRIKE !
You continued:
Red words refer to the Second coming of our Lord.
Blue words refer to the rapture.
Do you see the order here? Second advent FIRST, and THEN the rapture.
It could NOT be any more clear than that.
Let's see: He came once, so the next time He comes will be the "second" coming. This fits a pretrib coming to a "T!" What you have failed to prove is any TIMING information. It is what you demand of us, so I demand it to prove a posttrib rapture. Just an answer that He only comes once more is not good enough: you have to prove it with scripture. Strike 2!
So you can STOP the claim that there aren't any posttrib rapture verses. You have not shown me one yet.
You're going to have to really twist things around to get a resurrection BEFORE a FIRST resurrection. My friend, you are only showing your ignorance of the scriptures! You are thinking "time" when John was thinking "honor."
"First" resurrection: Strongs number G4413 "prōtos "
So it can mean first in time as you want to use it, or
it can mean first in rank or honor as in the chief of resurrections.
In the KJV it used: first (84x), chief (9x), first day (2x), former (2x), miscellaneous (7x).
Notice, NINE TIMES translated as chief.
So how do we know which use John had in mind? Simple, figure out that Jesus own firstfruit resurrection HAS to fit into one of these two resurrections mentioned in chapter 20. (there are and will be for all time only these two.) That means Jesus' resurrection has to be a part of "the first resurrection" or a part of the "Second Death" resurrection.
Which of the two do you think fits Christ's own resurrection?
Finally you wrote:
This is dishonest. I've already quoted 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4,5 before, a number of times.
A post trib rapture has been proven from these verses.
What I find amazing is you actually believe you provided proof of a posttrib rapture! All you proved is that YOU believe in a posttrib rapture and imagine these verses prove it to all. Sorry, but your proof only works for those who believe there is only one more coming.
All I am looking for is true scriptural proof that Paul's rapture is posttrib. if it is true, surely you can come up with REAL Proof. So far you have failed.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
I see a coming. I see a gathering. BUT I SEE NO TIMING. STRIKE !
You continued:
Red words refer to the Second coming of our Lord.
Blue words refer to the rapture.
Do you see the order here? Second advent FIRST, and THEN the rapture.
It could NOT be any more clear than that.
Let's see: He came once, so the next time He comes will be the "second" coming. This fits a pretrib coming to a "T!" What you have failed to prove is any TIMING information. It is what you demand of us, so I demand it to prove a posttrib rapture. Just an answer that He only comes once more is not good enough: you have to prove it with scripture. Strike 2!
So you can STOP the claim that there aren't any posttrib rapture verses. You have not shown me one yet.
You're going to have to really twist things around to get a resurrection BEFORE a FIRST resurrection. My friend, you are only showing your ignorance of the scriptures! You are thinking "time" when John was thinking "honor."
"First" resurrection: Strongs number G4413 "prōtos "
- first in time or place
- in any succession of things or persons
- first in rank
- influence, honour
- chief
- principal
So it can mean first in time as you want to use it, or
it can mean first in rank or honor as in the chief of resurrections.
In the KJV it used: first (84x), chief (9x), first day (2x), former (2x), miscellaneous (7x).
Notice, NINE TIMES translated as chief.
So how do we know which use John had in mind? Simple, figure out that Jesus own firstfruit resurrection HAS to fit into one of these two resurrections mentioned in chapter 20. (there are and will be for all time only these two.) That means Jesus' resurrection has to be a part of "the first resurrection" or a part of the "Second Death" resurrection.
Which of the two do you think fits Christ's own resurrection?
Finally you wrote:
This is dishonest. I've already quoted 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4,5 before, a number of times.
A post trib rapture has been proven from these verses.
What I find amazing is you actually believe you provided proof of a posttrib rapture! All you proved is that YOU believe in a posttrib rapture and imagine these verses prove it to all. Sorry, but your proof only works for those who believe there is only one more coming.
All I am looking for is true scriptural proof that Paul's rapture is posttrib. if it is true, surely you can come up with REAL Proof. So far you have failed.
It should be clear to all after almost 70 pages of "proof" for both sides of pre and post, that when people read scriptures differently, what seems like good proof to one side is not perceived as proof by the other side. It is for this reason that this same disagreement has been ongoing for years. It is not going to be settled in this thread.
It is only going to be solved when Jesus comes.
It is only going to be solved when Jesus comes.
John provided a title for one of the two resurrections he has listed. He called in the "first" resurrection. The only words I could find that relate to the other resurrection to "title" it is a "second death" resurrection. I will RE-title it as the "death and hell" resurrection from 20:13.
The point is, there are ONLY TWO. That means every human resurrection must fit either one or the other of these two, and that includes Jesus' own resurrection. Which one of the two will you place Jesus' resurrection?
The point is, there are ONLY TWO. That means every human resurrection must fit either one or the other of these two, and that includes Jesus' own resurrection. Which one of the two will you place Jesus' resurrection?
Yes, that is what I said, but I didn't shout.
Since all the OT believers and all the dead NT believers have accompanied Christ, your comment is in error
Focus on v.1, since it is "purposely-worded entirely distinctly from v.8b". Why do you bring in such irrelevant comments?
This very long and very awkwardly sentence needs a lot of work.
However, your point is meaningless, since Paul gives the clear order of the Second Advent and rapture in v.1.
You cannot undo what Paul did.
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That's really the bottom line. No one can undo what the Bible plainly says even after all of the mental gymnastics. Paul still simply places the rapture after the anti-Christ is sitting in the temple proclaimin himself to be God. Ipso facto.... By that time the great tribulation is in full swing before Christ comes and then destroys him.
It is also translated "foremost". So what? The obvious point is that trib martyrs are in the first resurrection, and that cannot mean honor above that of the "firstfruits", or Christ Himself.
btw, according to biblehub.com the word is also found in passages describing "first day of the week" and "first day of unleavened bread" and "first census taken". So your argument drifts away like a puff of smoke.
You have inserted your own opinion about how to translate "first". No dice. I've just showed you how the word is used in other verses, and it certainly DOES have to do with time.
See for yourself. I cited my source. You are free to search for yourself.
btw, according to biblehub.com the word is also found in passages describing "first day of the week" and "first day of unleavened bread" and "first census taken". So your argument drifts away like a puff of smoke.
You have inserted your own opinion about how to translate "first". No dice. I've just showed you how the word is used in other verses, and it certainly DOES have to do with time.
See for yourself. I cited my source. You are free to search for yourself.