50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[BenjaminN]

You got that all wrong. If Darby did anything, it was to rightly DIVIDE the Church FROM Israel.
Formerly, heretical replacement theology was all too commonplace.

There are only one Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile Christians alike are fellow heirs alike in the Body of Christ.

Read about the one (Jew and Gentile) united Body of Christ olive tree, with Christ the One Root of Romans 11.

Ephesians 3 (NKJV)

6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel

 

[BenjaminN]

The lost 10 tribes is a myth and heresy...

https://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/40/

Do you honestly think that because a few individuals from the northern kingdom migrated to the south and surfaced in the writings, it means that thousands upon thousands of captured and transplaced northern kingdom Assyrian captives of 722BC just resurfaced before their time of punishment elapsed? Ezekiel lied on his one side for the southern kingdom, and some days on his other side for the northern kingdom. Each day represented one year, and Leviticus 26 multiplied those number of years by 7, bringing you to 2700+ years before the northern kingdom captives will resurface. christianzionism's agenda do not fit the Bible narrative however, and this 2700+ years for Ephraim to resurface do not fit their agenda. Any ways Ezekiel 37 requires Messiah, Ephraim and Judah to be present in the Promised Land for prophesy to be fulfilled, one critical ingredient (Messiah coming in the clouds with the resurrected dead) is missing from christianzionism's mix in the current state in Israel, not even to mention Ephraim or the northern kingdom being missing.

 

[cv5]

There are only one Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile Christians alike are fellow heirs alike in the Body of Christ.

Read about the one (Jew and Gentile) united Body of Christ olive tree, with Christ the One Root of Romans 11.

Ephesians 3 (NKJV)

6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel

That is true....WITHIN the Church!

Evidently it has escaped your notice that the Bible indicates HUNDREDS OF TIMES that there will be ETHNIC ISRAELITES populating the earth during the Millennium, including a Temple, priests and Levites.

Ethnic Israelites populating an EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom concatenates perfectly with the reality of the pre-trib rapture of a DISTINCT group who inherit the heavenlies. The succinct division is undeniably Biblical.

We, the Church, inherit the heavenly places and are bequeathed with spiritual blessings.....AND A SPIRITUAL BODY!

Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ

1Cor 15:44, 46 (RAPTURE!)
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. They are buried as natural human ...

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later.

Ethnic Israelites in the Millennium enjoy EARTHLY blessings, a fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. The Jews and gentiles who survive the tribulation are FLESH AND BLOOD, and will beget children and repopulate THE EARTH.

 

[cv5]

Do you honestly think that because a few individuals from the northern kingdom migrated to the south and surfaced in the writings, it means that thousands upon thousands of captured and transplaced northern kingdom Assyrian captives of 722BC just resurfaced before their time of punishment elapsed? Ezekiel lied on his one side for the southern kingdom, and some days on his other side for the northern kingdom. Each day represented one year, and Leviticus 26 multiplied those number of years by 7, bringing you to 2700+ years before the northern kingdom captives will resurface. christianzionism's agenda do not fit the Bible narrative however, and this 2700+ years for Ephraim to resurface do not fit their agenda. Any ways Ezekiel 37 requires Messiah, Ephraim and Judah to be present in the Promised Land for prophesy to be fulfilled, one critical ingredient (Messiah coming in the clouds with the resurrected dead) is missing from christianzionism's mix in the current state in Israel, not even to mention Ephraim or the northern kingdom being missing.

Luk 2:36
Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity;

Deal with it......

 

[BenjaminN]

That is true....WITHIN the Church!

Evidently it has escaped your notice that the Bible indicates HUNDREDS OF TIMES that there will be ETHNIC ISRAELITES populating the earth during the Millennium, including a Temple, priests and Levites.

Ethnic Israelites populating an EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom concatenates perfectly with the reality of the pre-trib rapture of a DISTINCT group who inherit the heavenlies. The succinct division is undeniably Biblical.

We, the Church, inherit the heavenly places and are bequeathed with spiritual blessings.....AND A SPIRITUAL BODY!

Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ

1Cor 15:44, 46 (RAPTURE!)
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. They are buried as natural human ...

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later.

Ethnic Israelites in the Millennium enjoy EARTHLY blessings, a fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. The Jews and gentiles who survive the tribulation are FLESH AND BLOOD, and will beget children and repopulate THE EARTH.

Yes, in the Millennium Kingdom we agree. The Millennium Kingdom which follows Christ's return to earth at our rapture.

 

[BenjaminN]

Luk 2:36
Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity;

Deal with it......

In the same sense that there are a few Chinese in Chinatown New York, Chinese people does not mean New Yorkers, but it collectively, representatively would be referring to the world's population residing east of Russia in China. Anna from the tribe of Asher is not collectively, representative of the northern kingdom of Israel that were taken captive in their hundred thousands to Assyria. There were exceptions of migrants like Anna that excaped the tyranny timeously as migrants from the northern kingdom of Samaria to the southern kingdom of Judea.

 

[randyk]

That is true....WITHIN the Church!

Evidently it has escaped your notice that the Bible indicates HUNDREDS OF TIMES that there will be ETHNIC ISRAELITES populating the earth during the Millennium, including a Temple, priests and Levites.

Ethnic Israelites populating an EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom concatenates perfectly with the reality of the pre-trib rapture of a DISTINCT group who inherit the heavenlies. The succinct division is undeniably Biblical.

We, the Church, inherit the heavenly places and are bequeathed with spiritual blessings.....AND A SPIRITUAL BODY!

Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ

1Cor 15:44, 46 (RAPTURE!)
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. They are buried as natural human ...

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later.

Ethnic Israelites in the Millennium enjoy EARTHLY blessings, a fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. The Jews and gentiles who survive the tribulation are FLESH AND BLOOD, and will beget children and repopulate THE EARTH.

Brother, I think it important to say that there are those who are Postrib, like myself, who are not into Replacement Theology. I do accept that there are *nations* as entities in the Church, even though there is a difference between *national salvation* and *individual salvation.*

The problem I see with Dispensationalism is not the matter of accepting Israel is an essential element in the fulfillment of prophecy in the Millennium. Rather, it is the application of *OT concepts* of *Israel's exclusivity* and *OT Law* that does damage to this perspective.

Yes, Israel will be restored. Yes, Israel will be delivered from the nations that oppose her. But at the same time, *many nations* will also be delivered and restored--namely Christian nations. The Bible didn't focus on international salvation as much, because when it was written there was not yet such a thing as "Christian nations."

 

[cv5]

In the same sense that there are a few Chinese in Chinatown New York, Chinese people does not mean New Yorkers, but it collectively, representatively would be referring to the world's population residing east of Russia in China. Anna from the tribe of Asher is not collectively, representative of the northern kingdom of Israel that were taken captive in their hundred thousands to Assyria. There were exceptions of migrants like Anna that excaped the tyranny timeously as migrants from the northern kingdom of Samaria to the southern kingdom of Judea.

You're dreaming again. The Holy Spirit made a point of defining her tribe. That one statement alone destroys this 10 lost tribes nonsense.

The fact that Anna knew of her tribe means that the knowledge of her lineage was NOT lost since 722 BC. Quite the contrary these people maintained their tribal identities. Deliberately and carefully.

 

[BenjaminN]

You're dreaming again. The Holy Spirit made a point of defining her tribe. That one statement alone destroys this 10 lost tribes nonsense.

The fact that Anna knew of her tribe means that the knowledge of her lineage was NOT lost since 722 BC. Quite the contrary these people maintained their tribal identities. Deliberately and carefully.

Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, people knew their tribal identity. One individual's whereabouts however is not representative of what history tells us what happened to most of a tribe. christianzionism does not fit history, God's Word, nor the future Millennial Kingdom.

 

[randyk]

You're dreaming again. The Holy Spirit made a point of defining her tribe. That one statement alone destroys this 10 lost tribes nonsense.

The fact that Anna knew of her tribe means that the knowledge of her lineage was NOT lost since 722 BC. Quite the contrary these people maintained their tribal identities. Deliberately and carefully.

I don't agree with the brother that "Israel" has been redefined as "the Church." However, I do agree with his Postrib.

Although I agree with your sense of the future restoration of national Israel, I cannot agree that the 144,000 consist of literal tribes. They are obviously symbolic of the heirs of these tribes, the tribes no longer existing.

 

[BenjaminN]

I don't agree with the brother that "Israel" has been redefined as "the Church." However, I do agree with his Postrib.

Although I agree with your sense of the future restoration of national Israel, I cannot agree that the 144,000 consist of literal tribes. They are obviously symbolic of the heirs of these tribes, the tribes no longer existing.

Israel is Israel, and some of Israel like Jesus and his twelve Jewish disciples is part of the Church. The Church is the Body of Messiah and has nothing to do with Israel. Israel, like the rest of the Gentile world will be under Messiah's rule in the Millennial Kingdom and Israel's tribes will be restored by Messiah as described in Ezekiel 37-48.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Brother, I think it important to say that there are those who are Postrib, like myself, who are not into Replacement Theology. I do accept that there are *nations* as entities in the Church, even though there is a difference between *national salvation* and *individual salvation.*

The problem I see with Dispensationalism is not the matter of accepting Israel is an essential element in the fulfillment of prophecy in the Millennium. Rather, it is the application of *OT concepts* of *Israel's exclusivity* and *OT Law* that does damage to this perspective.

Yes, Israel will be restored. Yes, Israel will be delivered from the nations that oppose her. But at the same time, *many nations* will also be delivered and restored--namely Christian nations. The Bible didn't focus on international salvation as much, because when it was written there was not yet such a thing as "Christian nations."

Actually, the Christians within the church will have already been removed from the earth prior to God's wrath. Therefore, the nations that will be no christian nations left. There will however be those who become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered and during God's wrath.

And regarding those who believe in a post tribulation gathering of the church, As I continue to make known to you, Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, which is why the church will not be on the earth during the time of said wrath. This is also why you will not find the word 'church' found anywhere in the narrative of God's wrath.

I've also shown you that the church/bride is already in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb and will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses, as revealed in Revelation 17:14, 19:6-8, 14. In order to attend the wedding of the Lamb in heaven and follow the Lord out of heaven, then we would already have to be in heaven. Jude quoting Enoch also supports this:

"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Believers within the church will have already been gathered and taken back to heaven prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which will be initiated by the opening of the first seal. The post tribulation gathering of the church is not supported by scripture. This belief exists only because expositors lumped the event of the gathering of the church as taking place at the same time that Christ returns to the earth to end the age, not recognizing them as two separate events and in the process ignoring all of the scriptures to the contrary.

Simply put, those who believe in a post tribulation gathering are looking for the wrath of God to take place first and not the imminent appearing of the Lord to gather His church.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don't agree with the brother that "Israel" has been redefined as "the Church." However, I do agree with his Postrib.

Although I agree with your sense of the future restoration of national Israel, I cannot agree that the 144,000 consist of literal tribes. They are obviously symbolic of the heirs of these tribes, the tribes no longer existing.

The fact that the number is stated as being 144,000 and is broken down by 12,000 per tribe, demonstrates that it is a literal number and they are literal Israelites. There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to seek out a symbolic meaning to either of these, but must be assumed and forced in order to come to that conclusion.

 

[randyk]

Israel is Israel, and some of Israel like Jesus and his twelve Jewish disciples is part of the Church. The Church is the Body of Messiah and has nothing to do with Israel. Israel, like the rest of the Gentile world will be under Messiah's rule in the Millennial Kingdom and Israel's tribes will be restored by Messiah as described in Ezekiel 37-48.

I agree with everything except that it seems inconsistent to say that Israel has nothing to do with the Church. If some Israelis are like Jesus and his 12 Disciples, and are part of the Church, then certainly Israel, as a nation, has a role to play in the Church! Otherwise, I agree.

 

[randyk]

The fact that the number is stated as being 144,000 and is broken down by 12,000 per tribe, demonstrates that it is a literal number and they are literal Israelites. There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to seek out a symbolic meaning to either of these, but must be assumed and forced in order to come to that conclusion.

Symbolism is obviously a regularly used literary feature in the Bible and elsewhere. The way we know when symbolism is being applied is when the context demands it and a literal application cannot be made.

For example, if the Bible suggests there is a 7 headed Beast, we know we're dealing with symbolism simply because beasts don't literally have 7 heads! The same, then, would apply to the 144,000 with 12 tribes of 12,000 each. Since no tribes exist, as such, anymore, the author would likely be presenting a symbolic truth that would be understood by Christians, who know that Israel is now fulfilled in the nation, and not in tribes.

Not only have tribal regions been extinct in Israel for many centuries, but it is impossible to restore them. What we have today is a Jewish People who are directly descended from all 12 tribes. Those 12 tribes merged into two kingdoms, and eventually into a single national people, the Jewish People.

And so, the Jewish people in Israel today are, indeed, the literal descendants of these 12 tribes. They are stated to exist in equal numbers for the same reason Ezekiel, in his vision, showed the tribes as roughly equivalent regions. It was to show an equal inheritance among the tribes, rather than a literal number.

 

[VCO]

Christians are "the elect".

ELECT is a term that applies to ISRAEL.

Isaiah 45:4 (KJV)
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 65:9-10 (KJV)
9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

Isaiah 65:22 (KJV)
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. {Proves the 70th Week of Daniel is still FUTURE.}

Matthew 24:31 (KJV)
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
{Proves it is not the CHURCH that is GATHERED, but ISRAEL. The Church was CAUGHT UP to go to Wedding in Heaven much earlier.}


QUOTE:
Commentary on MAT. 24:31:

The elect spoken of in this verse is still the nation Israel. The prophets in the Old Testament foretold of a miracle that would bring the Jews back into their land. (This is not the church which is going to be caught up out of this world to meet the Lord in the air. Angels are not connected with the Rapture.) The Lord will come in person to receive the church with the sound of a trumpet, and His voice will be like that of an archangel. He will not need any help to gather His church together. He died for the church, and He will bring it together. When He says that the "angels... shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other," we can be sure that He is talking about the nation Israel -- ministering angels have always been connected with Israel.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.
:END QUOTE.


QUOTE:
Mat. 24:31 When He descends, He will send His angels throughout the earth to gather together His elect people, believing Israel, to the land of Palestine. From all the earth they will gather to greet their Messiah and to enjoy His glorious reign.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.
:END QUOTE.


QUOTE:
He will then send His angels forth to regather His elect from the four winds, which relates to the earth (cf. Mark 13:27), from one end of the heavens to the other. This involves the gathering, {Rapture was earlier}, of those who will have become believers during the Seventieth Week of Daniel and who will have been scattered into various parts of the world because of persecution (cf. Matt. 24:16).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
:END QUOTE.


QUOTE:
(4) the Sound with Which He Will Return (24:31)

At His return the Son of man "shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Moses anticipated the judgmental scattering of Israel into all parts of the earth because of national sin; he also foresaw the end-time ingathering of all the remaining outcasts of Israel. In Deuteronomy 30:3-5 he prophesied that national repentance would be followed by national regathering:

John Phillips Commentary Series, The - The John Phillips Commentary Series – Exploring the Gospel of Matthew: An Expository Commentary.
:END QUOTE.


The RAPTURE COMES Seven Years earlier. You are Confusing verses Pertaining to the Second Coming, with the Rapture, and verses pertaining only to Tribulation Saints, with the Church. PLEASE, get off you high horse, and restudy those verses, and learn to correctly divide the Word of Truth. We have shared with you the TRUTH.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Symbolism is obviously a regularly used literary feature in the Bible and elsewhere. The way we know when symbolism is being applied is when the context demands it and a literal application cannot be made.

For example, if the Bible suggests there is a 7 headed Beast, we know we're dealing with symbolism simply because beasts don't literally have 7 heads! The same, then, would apply to the 144,000 with 12 tribes of 12,000 each. Since no tribes exist, as such, anymore, the author would likely be presenting a symbolic truth that would be understood by Christians, who know that Israel is now fulfilled in the nation, and not in tribes.

This is where your error is. Where a seven headed dragon is obvious symbolism, the literal number of 144,000 Israelites is not, but a symbolic meaning is forced upon it. The fact that the number is broken down into 12,000 per tribe also supports a literal interpretation. It is the same with the thousand years which is mentioned six times from Rev.20:1-7, which demands an interpretation of a literal thousand years.

Not only have tribal regions been extinct in Israel for many centuries, but it is impossible to restore them. What we have today is a Jewish People who are directly descended from all 12 tribes. Those 12 tribes merged into two kingdoms, and eventually into a single national people, the Jewish People.

And so, the Jewish people in Israel today are, indeed, the literal descendants of these 12 tribes. They are stated to exist in equal numbers for the same reason Ezekiel, in his vision, showed the tribes as roughly equivalent regions. It was to show an equal inheritance among the tribes, rather than a literal number.

I assure you that God knows exactly who the 144,000 are and what tribes they belong to. Remember, it is God who is having them sealed and therefore, it is not necessary for them to know what tribes the are from. In the same way that God reserved for himself 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal, He has reserved for himself these 144,000 Israelites who will be sealed at the onset of the seven year period.

The correct way to read the book of Revelation is that, 'if the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.' If we apply this to the 144,000 Israelites, then the actual number and tribes make good, normal sense and require a literal interpretation.

The lack of discernment of what is symbolic and what is literal, is one of the major problems with expositors interpreting the book of Revelation.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree with everything except that it seems inconsistent to say that Israel has nothing to do with the Church. If some Israelis are like Jesus and his 12 Disciples, and are part of the Church, then certainly Israel, as a nation, has a role to play in the Church!

Only believing Israelites are the Church. Obviously those who do not believe in Christ are not part of it. The Church began with Israelites who accepted Christ and the only way to become part of that one Church is to also believe in him.

 

[ewq1938]

Symbolism is obviously a regularly used literary feature in the Bible and elsewhere. The way we know when symbolism is being applied is when the context demands it and a literal application cannot be made.

For example, if the Bible suggests there is a 7 headed Beast, we know we're dealing with symbolism simply because beasts don't literally have 7 heads! The same, then, would apply to the 144,000 with 12 tribes of 12,000 each. Since no tribes exist, as such, anymore, the author would likely be presenting a symbolic truth that would be understood by Christians, who know that Israel is now fulfilled in the nation, and not in tribes.

The tribes still exist but most have no idea what tribe they come from and a great many do not even know they belong to any of the 12 tribes but God knows who is who and what tribe one belongs to. It is not symbolic like a 7 headed beast. The 144k are literal descendants of the 12 tribes.

 

[cv5]

Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, people knew their tribal identity. One individual's whereabouts however is not representative of what history tells us what happened to most of a tribe. christianzionism does not fit history, God's Word, nor the future Millennial Kingdom.

2Ch 30:11
Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

Read the whole chapter. This was during the reign of Hezekiah....who reigned in Judah AFTER 722BC! ALL ISRAEL was called to the Passover in Jerusalem at a time of NATIONAL REPENTANCE.

Your 10 lost tribes heresy is hereby quashed forevermore. Quit professing and teaching this horrific error.