50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

BenjaminN said:
I believe in the rapture, at the Second Coming of Christ, after the great tribulation, ie. post tribulationism, the way it was believed for centuries before 1830's John Nelson Darby's christianzionism.

Lots of luck with your wild theory, I think you are going to need it.

I will believe in what the Holy Spirit has put on my heart to BELIEVE.

What makes you think it was the Holy Spirit.? Aren't you aware the Bible says the devil has "deceived the whole world" and "leads the whole world astray"?

What Ben posted above has solid Scriptural evidence, unlike the pretrib theory, which has none.

If you know of a verse that shows Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven, please share. That would be evidence for a pretrib rapture.

But, if there were such a verse, then the Bible would be FLAWED, because 2 Thess 2:1-3 clearly shows the rapture to be post trib.

I reject any idea of a flawed Bbile. So pretrib cannot be true, since post trib rapture IS true.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think pretribbers have been programmed to believe in a pretrib rapture as part of their Salvation. Unfortunately they think that they will not be raptured whenever God has ordained it to happen (pre or post tribulation), if they do not believe in a pretribulation rapture. The Gospel tells us that Salvation is guaranteed for those who believe that Christ has died for our sins on the cross and God's plan for your life will follow. Thus pretribbers will unfortunately go as former Christian believers with little faith into the great tribulation, and might be some of the Christians that will for part of the great apostasy.

This is a real tragedy. Those pretribbers who will live into the trib with their very strong convictions are going to be in for a shock.

Wonder how their "strong conviction" will stand up to reality? I fear the faith of many of these will be shaken apart.

They are so convinced that the Bible teaches a pretrib rapture, and all without any evidence for it, that the reality may cause them to doubt the truth of Scripture.

Very sad.

I can only speak for myself, but as a post tribber, if the rapture occurs before the trib, my smile will be as big, or even bigger, than ANY of the pretribbers during the trip up.

Why they think that post tribbers will miss the rapture just because they don't believe it will be pretrib is weird.

I think there is an argument for the trib already here, based on the first 4 seal judgments. The only question is about what intensity these 4 seals will achieve. It is certainly getting more intense every day.

 

[Absolutely]

Just the name antichrist renders pretribulationism obsolete...

Let's say all the Christians raptures out together with the resurrected believers in their glorified bodies, before the antichrist starts the great tribulation...

Why would the antichrist then be called antichrist, if there is no Christians around during his reign?

It's because Christians gets raptured together with the resurrected believers in their glorified bodies after the great tribulational reign of the antichrist.

Pretribbers kindly take a reality check in advance, before you have to take it in great distress, without being prepared with faith from God above to last, through what will be coming.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

10If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

Anti = type
Anti = against

He rides a white horse
He recieves worship
He rules
He conquers
He is one component of a trinity.

1) He is a false christ.
2) He kills all believers early in the trib

You take one dimension and build false assumptions on that bad foundation.

Anti has dual dimensions.
Not one dimensional.

Why do you think postribs center on the trib and devil?

Why not the view of heaven and the bible( Jesus and his bride and marriage supper in heaven as well as the jews who are the wayward wife)?

Because of their starting place.
100% focused on the "INDIRECT"

If you started correctly you would focus on what heaven focuses.
Bride/ bridegroom.
BTW...none of your teachers teach on the wedding, the bride, or the business done in heaven. Nor that all believers die in the gt.

We have a doctrine placing us as looking for Jesus.

You have a doctrine placing you looking for and expecting the false christ.

All your teachers focus 100% on the false christ, misery, destruction, fear.
Like a christian horror movie.

I will go with heavens plan. Heavens focus.
" therefore comfort one another with these words"

How do we know we are correct?

The last words of the bible are " the spirit and the bride say come.
...maranatha...come Lord Jesus"

We were left with the rapture dimension. The parting words. The heart of heaven is the bride longing for the groom

 

[Absolutely]

I think pretribbers have been programmed to believe in a pretrib rapture as part of their Salvation. Unfortunately they think that they will not be raptured whenever God has ordained it to happen (pre or post tribulation), if they do not believe in a pretribulation rapture. The Gospel tells us that Salvation is guaranteed for those who believe that Christ has died for our sins on the cross and God's plan for your life will follow. Thus pretribbers will unfortunately go as former Christian believers with little faith into the great tribulation, and might be some of the Christians that will for part of the great apostasy.

Then you should have several verses.

You have ZERO
ZERO VERSES.

Your false doctrine remains 100% debunked.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then you should have several verses.

You have ZERO
ZERO VERSES.

Your false doctrine remains 100% debunked.

I am constantly amazed at your bold claims since it is YOU who have zero verses about a pretrib rapture.

2 Thess 2:1-3 refutes your theory completely.

 

[Absolutely]

christianzionism

Your doctrine originated in deception
Continues in deception of reframing verses.
False doctrine created in the early church by men who saw no israel nation or people in their homeland.
Israel destroyed and scattered.
That prism brought in amil and postrib.

Your deal...even its roots are deception and lies.

 

[Absolutely]

Read the whole of Romans 11 as well as:

Ephesians 3 (NKJV)

6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Nothing in that stops 2 covenants becoming one and the first covenant peoples from entering later

I read the bible...not false teachers.

Can spot those counterfeits.

 

[Absolutely]

That's incredible. The guy believes in something the Church has believed in for centuries, and you call it a "wild theory?" Something's definitely wrong with your view on this! At worst, it's a disagreement is all. If it's so important for you to believe in the Pretrib Rapture that you're going to insult all of Church history to hold onto it, I'd say you missed the Holy Spirit!

"Take not the Lord's name in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."

What percentage of the early church was amil?

They saw through a false prism of destroyed and scattered israel.

Your entire deal is from deception.

 

[Absolutely]

That is a current popular way of viewing it. I don't, however, view it that way. Luke 21 indicates it began with the destruction of the temple and ends with the close of the Gentiles' oppression of the Jewish People.

The "shortening" of this period of time indicates, to me, that it is indeed a very long time, the worst and longest in Israel's history. It is for that reason that it must finally be terminated, or "cut short."

In this regard, to be "cut short" indicates the termination of something that would otherwise continue indefinitely. It does not mean it will be a short period of time overall. Rather, it will be a long period of time that is kept from going on indefinitely.

And the implication also seems to be that this long period of Jewish punishment is a constant threat to Jewish survival. It is therefore "cut short" at a time when the very length of time appears to be a threat to Jewish survival. It lasts so long that people might believe that Israel is forgotten by God.

In fact, this is the source of Replacement Theology, the belief that God has given up on Israel and has now turned to the nations to bring out from them an international people without regard for nations at all.

But as we can see, in these last days, the nation Israel has been restored. God is saving the nation. God has not forgotten His covenant with Israel. She just has yet to pass through her final fire, to purify her from Judaism. To accept her Messiah she must give up her own man-made religion, which is what Judaism became after Jesus was rejected.

So as Israel comes into her own again as a nation, she will be threatened once again with utter destruction. She has not yet accepted Christ, continues to persist in Judaism, and is still under divine punishment in the present age. But God will "cut short" this destruction, and save a remnant of Israel in order to rebuild it as a nation at the coming of Christ. At least, this is what I believe, based on what I read and how I understand it.

Postribs reject what you just laid out.
The roots of postrib rapture carry with it much amil teaching.
( israel out of the picture ENTIRELY)

I commend you for seeing what you do.

 

[Absolutely]

That is a current popular way of viewing it. I don't, however, view it that way. Luke 21 indicates it began with the destruction of the temple and ends with the close of the Gentiles' oppression of the Jewish People.

The "shortening" of this period of time indicates, to me, that it is indeed a very long time, the worst and longest in Israel's history. It is for that reason that it must finally be terminated, or "cut short."

In this regard, to be "cut short" indicates the termination of something that would otherwise continue indefinitely. It does not mean it will be a short period of time overall. Rather, it will be a long period of time that is kept from going on indefinitely.

And the implication also seems to be that this long period of Jewish punishment is a constant threat to Jewish survival. It is therefore "cut short" at a time when the very length of time appears to be a threat to Jewish survival. It lasts so long that people might believe that Israel is forgotten by God.

In fact, this is the source of Replacement Theology, the belief that God has given up on Israel and has now turned to the nations to bring out from them an international people without regard for nations at all.

But as we can see, in these last days, the nation Israel has been restored. God is saving the nation. God has not forgotten His covenant with Israel. She just has yet to pass through her final fire, to purify her from Judaism. To accept her Messiah she must give up her own man-made religion, which is what Judaism became after Jesus was rejected.

So as Israel comes into her own again as a nation, she will be threatened once again with utter destruction. She has not yet accepted Christ, continues to persist in Judaism, and is still under divine punishment in the present age. But God will "cut short" this destruction, and save a remnant of Israel in order to rebuild it as a nation at the coming of Christ. At least, this is what I believe, based on what I read and how I understand it.

did you see that radical postrib leave you a red x?

They radically cling to early church deception.

 

[Absolutely]

God's transcendent position, in comparison to our earthly position, is necessary in both the ontological and redemptive senses. His position is superior to ours. We see things as created humans. He sees things in a far more comprehensive way. We have experienced a kind of separation from God. He is holy and we are not, unless we are allowed some access to Him.

So "heaven" speaks of God's transcendent position above our earthly limitations. We go there in vision to see something bigger than ourselves. But we go there for only a limited time, in order to put what we learn there into use on earth, where we were created to be.



When Jesus spoke of God's Kingdom being in the "midst" of Israel, he was speaking of his own presence in their midst. He was not saying that the eschatological Kingdom had come yet. His message, clearly, was that it was "near," and not yet "here." In fact, Jesus considered it heresy to claim that the Kingdom had in any sense yet come. He utterly rejected the "false Christs" of his own generation, who claimed that God would save Israel from the Romans.



Heaven isn't our ultimate destination--the New Earth is. That's why God is creating a new heaven and a new earth. The earth is where God has placed man--not heaven. Heaven is a temporary dwelling for the departed saints until such time as the new earth is prepared for them.

Ahem...drinking wine with Jesus in heaven.
None of those disembodied spirits are doing that.
They will once they are united with their glorified bodies and with is in heaven at the pretrib rapture.
Pretrib rapture is solid bible.


Wicked ALWAYS taken first = debunked.
One coming= debunked
Postrib rapture = no verses.
No wine drinking in heaven = debunked.
Raptured saints making uturn to earth = debunked
Lot and noah delivered post judgement = debunked
Got bible?

Address those debunked dynamics for me.

 

[BenjaminN]

Your doctrine originated in deception
Continues in deception of reframing verses.
False doctrine created in the early church by men who saw no israel nation or people in their homeland.
Israel destroyed and scattered.
That prism brought in amil and postrib.

Your deal...even its roots are deception and lies.

Israel (all twelve tribes Ephraim and Juda as described in Ezekiel 37) will be restored to their land only under the Davidic Messiah, following the tribulation at His return in the clouds and the gathering of all believers under Messiah, of Israelite (in Israel) descendancy and Gentile (in the remainder of the world) descendancy.

 

[BenjaminN]

Ahem...drinking wine with Jesus in heaven.
None of those disembodied spirits are doing that.
They will once they are united with their glorified bodies and with is in heaven at the pretrib rapture.
Pretrib rapture is solid bible.


Wicked ALWAYS taken first = debunked.
One coming= debunked
Postrib rapture = no verses.
No wine drinking in heaven = debunked.
Raptured saints making uturn to earth = debunked
Lot and noah delivered post judgement = debunked
Got bible?

Address those debunked dynamics for me.

Matthew 24 (NKJ)

Rapture:

31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Post-tribulation context:

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your doctrine originated in deception
Continues in deception of reframing verses.

I have a challenge for you, if you are up to it.

2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Now concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion (Tribulation) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Now, your turn. Put in the parentheses YOUR understanding of what "coming" "gathered together" and "rebellion" means.

Then we'll all know who reframes verses.

Thanks.

Your deal....

Nope. It's your deal. Will you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ahem...drinking wine with Jesus in heaven.
None of those disembodied spirits are doing that.

That's correct. Nothing in Rev 19 shows any believer in heaven drinking wine.

They will once they are united with their glorified bodies and with is in heaven at the pretrib rapture.
Pretrib rapture is solid bible.

No one get a glorified body in heaven. They have to come to the clouds in the air of earth for that.

 

[cv5]

I believe in the rapture, at the Second Coming of Christ, after the great tribulation, ie. post tribulationism, the way it was believed for centuries before 1830's John Nelson Darby's christianzionism.

You got that all wrong. If Darby did anything, it was to rightly DIVIDE the Church FROM Israel.
Formerly, heretical replacement theology was all too commonplace.

 

[cv5]

After Solomon, David's former monarchic kingdom of Israel split into the 9 1/2 tribes northern Samarian Ephraimite kingom and the 3 tribes southern Jewish Judaic kingdom.

After around 744BC the northern tribes kingdom was taken into captivity by Assyria, NEVER to return. This Ephraim part of Israel are to this day scattered among the Gentiles, unknown of their identity as ancestors of the 9 1/2 tribes of Jacob, as opposed to Jewish Judaic Israel, who knows their identity, although also sometimes still living among the Gentiles.

The lost 10 tribes is a myth and heresy...

https://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/40/

 

[cv5]

Matthew 24 (NKJ)

Rapture:

31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Post-tribulation context:

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Since when are raptured Christians said to be gathered one by one by angels? Nowhere that's where. We Christians are gathered by JESUS HIMSELF. Altogether all at once instantaneously.

There are NO CHRISTIANS in those verses you quoted.

 

[BenjaminN]

Since when are raptured Christians said to be gathered one by one by angels? Nowhere that's where. We Christians are gathered by JESUS HIMSELF. Altogether all at once instantaneously.

There are NO CHRISTIANS in those verses you quoted.

Christians are "the elect".

 

[randyk]

Ahem...drinking wine with Jesus in heaven.
None of those disembodied spirits are doing that.
They will once they are united with their glorified bodies and with is in heaven at the pretrib rapture.
Pretrib rapture is solid bible.


Wicked ALWAYS taken first = debunked.
One coming= debunked
Postrib rapture = no verses.
No wine drinking in heaven = debunked.
Raptured saints making uturn to earth = debunked
Lot and noah delivered post judgement = debunked
Got bible?

Address those debunked dynamics for me.

You're merely asserting that things are "debunked" for you. For most people, such assertions lack significant proof. I've already responded to these things. So it's really up to what you want to believe.

I don't believe the "taken and left" refer to the Rapture. Both are being judged at the coming of the Romans. Some are taken away in captivity. And some are left to till the fields for the Romans. There is nothing about a Rapture in this. It's all about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, when the Roman army invades. It is all about the Jewish punishment in "this generation."

"One Coming" is based on Dan 7, which takes place in the context of the inception of the Messianic Kingdom, at the destruction of the Antichrist. All NT references to the coming of the Son of Man are consistent with Dan 7.

2 Thes 2 is explicit Postrib Theology. Christ will not come unless the Apostasy of Antichrist takes place first. Then Christ will come to destroy him, which is Postrib.

No Scripture says men will drink wine in heaven. The Kingdom of heaven is *from heaven* and will be realized *on the earth.*

Lot and Noah were delivered and given a new home *after* the judgment against their own generation. They were not Raptured, but they survived the tribulations of their own time.

This is entirely biblical. We just disagree on how we interpret this, and on how we see it.