...I should include what I had omitted concerning sheep, deciding that it also might add to a better understanding between sheep, especially on the part that they prefer to move uphill when disturbed and their excellent peripheral vision of 270-320 degrees...( search terms: are sheep blind, "Goats and Sheep," answers.com)
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
- Thread starter cv5
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Just a point: we're brothers, not buddies.
As to YOUR VERSION of the rapture, it isn't even found in Scripture.
Then why aren't you taking on my challenge: quote 2 Thess 2:1 and put whatever words in parenthesis what you think "coming" and "gathering" means, like I did.
Well, those who have closed their eyes and stopped up their ears sure won't be effected.
This is funny. 
As to YOUR VERSION of the rapture, it isn't even found in Scripture.
Then why aren't you taking on my challenge: quote 2 Thess 2:1 and put whatever words in parenthesis what you think "coming" and "gathering" means, like I did.
Well, those who have closed their eyes and stopped up their ears sure won't be effected.
On the contrary you have dusted it off and made it more gleaming and refulgent in glory.......
"Parallel" you say?.....
Of course you don't. So just go ahead and take my challenge and quote 2 Thess 2:1 and put in parenthesis what "coming" and "gathering" mean to you.
Then I'll know WHY you reject that verse as showing that the rapture occurs AFTER the Trib. Because I'm curious.
Fine.
Let the readers note, the posts I referenced say the following:
[quoting from posts]
Post #1102 (pg 56 of this thread) quoting from Post #607 different thread:
re: Heb9:28 - [excerpt] - "ALL TEN TIMES that "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" occurs (re: Jesus), ALL TEN of them refer to the time-period FOLLOWING His Resurrection! "
...and quoting from that Post #607 (re: Heb9:28):
"Show me anywhere in Scripture that the "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" (re: Him) speaks of anything BEFORE His DEATH/CROSS...
It doesn't. ALL TEN TIMES that "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" occurs (re: Jesus), ALL TEN of them refer to the time-period FOLLOWING His Resurrection! "
...and quoting further from Post #1106 (also pg 56 of this thread) that I'd also mentioned:
"Well, for one thing... in each of those TEN REFERENCES (used re: Jesus) to the word "APPEAR [passive - G3708]" (as is used in Heb9:28)...
... ALL TEN of them refer to what took place FOLLOWING His resurrection (NONE refer to His earthly ministry BEFORE His death, what we commonly call His "FIRST ADVENT"<--NONE of them refer to that)... and IN NONE OF THOSE passages does it refer to anything like "OPENLY MANIFEST TO/BEFORE ALL," but rather, ONLY to those carefully chosen witnesses... (Acts 10:41)..."
[end quoting from old posts]
Let the readers note, the posts I referenced say the following:
[quoting from posts]
Post #1102 (pg 56 of this thread) quoting from Post #607 different thread:
re: Heb9:28 - [excerpt] - "ALL TEN TIMES that "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" occurs (re: Jesus), ALL TEN of them refer to the time-period FOLLOWING His Resurrection!
"...and quoting from that Post #607 (re: Heb9:28):
"Show me anywhere in Scripture that the "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" (re: Him) speaks of anything BEFORE His DEATH/CROSS...
It doesn't. ALL TEN TIMES that "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" occurs (re: Jesus), ALL TEN of them refer to the time-period FOLLOWING His Resurrection!
"...and quoting further from Post #1106 (also pg 56 of this thread) that I'd also mentioned:
"Well, for one thing... in each of those TEN REFERENCES (used re: Jesus) to the word "APPEAR [passive - G3708]" (as is used in Heb9:28)...
... ALL TEN of them refer to what took place FOLLOWING His resurrection (NONE refer to His earthly ministry BEFORE His death, what we commonly call His "FIRST ADVENT"<--NONE of them refer to that)... and IN NONE OF THOSE passages does it refer to anything like "OPENLY MANIFEST TO/BEFORE ALL," but rather, ONLY to those carefully chosen witnesses... (Acts 10:41)..."
[end quoting from old posts]
-
1
- Show all
THAT IS THE ORIGINAL PREFACE, authored by the translation team. Go to a USED Old Book Store and find one that is old enough to have the ORIGINAL PREFACE in it.. King James Only believer reprinted it with an CHANGED PREFACE. I Wonder Why? Could the ORIGINAL Disprove the THEORY that KING JAMES ONLY believers want people to BELIEVE, that: King James Version is the only GOD Inspired Translation to the English Language in the WORLD.
NOW YOU HAVE ADDED YOUR OWN TWIST TO THE SCRIPTURES, AND THAT IS forbidden.
Proverbs 30:6 (HCSB)
6 Don’t add to His words, or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar.
IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS:
Daniel 9:26 (ASV)
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26 (NCV)
26 After the four hundred thirty-four years the appointed leader will be killed; he will have nothing. The people of the leader who is to come will destroy the city and the holy place. The end of the city will come like a flood, and war will continue until the end. God has ordered that place to be completely destroyed.
Daniel 9:26 (TLB)
26 "After this period of 434 years, the Anointed One will be killed, his kingdom still unrealized... and a king will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. They will be overwhelmed as with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
Daniel 9:26 (NJB)
26 And after the sixty-two weeks an Anointed One put to death without his . . . city and sanctuary ruined by a prince who is to come. The end of that prince will be catastrophe and, until the end, there will be war and all the devastation decreed.
Daniel 9:26 (YLT)
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.
Daniel 9:26 (NIV)
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
Daniel 9:26 (HCSB)
26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.
Daniel 9:26 (NASB)
26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
QUOTE:
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. From that time on, the history of the city would be one of war and destruction. The end here means the end of the times of the Gentiles.
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.
QUOTE:
would continue until the end. Even though Israel was to be set aside, she would continue to suffer until the prophecies of the 70 "sevens" were completely fulfilled. Her sufferings span the entire period from the destruction of Jerusalem in a.d. 70 to Jerusalem's deliverance from Gentile dominion at the Second Advent of Christ.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
Now in J. Vernon McGee's commentary, are SEVERAL OTHER THINGS that must be accomplished during the 70 Weeks prophesy:
QUOTE:
We will see as we progress in our study that sixty-nine of those "weeks" have already passed, and one "week" is yet to be fulfilled.
Here are the six things to be accomplished:
1. "To finish the transgression." This refers to the transgression of Israel. The cross provided the redemption for sin -- for the sin of the nation, but not all accepted it. Today the word has gone out to the ends of the earth that there is a redemption for mankind. But in that last "week" we are told that God says, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications..." (Zech. 12:10). And in Zechariah 13:1: "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness." That has not been opened yet. All you have to do is to look at the land of Israel and you will know this has not been fulfilled.
2. "To make an end of sins." The national sins of Israel will come to an end at the second coming of Christ. They are just like any other people or any other nation. They are sinners as individuals and as a nation. They have made many mistakes as a nation (so have we), but God will make an end to that.
3. "To make reconciliation for iniquity." During this period of Seventy Weeks, God has provided a redemption through the death and resurrection of Christ. This, of course, is for Jew and Gentile alike.
4. "And to bring in everlasting righteousness" refers to the return of Christ at the end of the 490 years to establish the Kingdom.
5. "To seal up the vision and prophecy" means that all will be fulfilled, which will vindicate this prophecy as well as all other prophecies in Scripture.
6. "To anoint the most Holy" has reference to the anointing of the holy of holies in the millennial temple about which Ezekiel spoke (Ezek. 41 -- Ezek. 46).
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate [Dan. 9:25-27].
Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.
-
1
- Show all
And P.S. out of those TEN REFERENCES ^ , exactly HALF of them (5x) speak of His having appeared to Paul from His position UP IN HEAVEN; examples: Acts 26:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:8... meaning, it did not require Jesus' EXIT out from Heaven in order to occur.
--Acts 26:16 - "But rise up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared [G3708 - passive] to you [Paul] for this purpose, to appoint you a servant and a witness both of that which ..."
--Acts 26:16 - "But rise up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared [G3708 - passive] to you [Paul] for this purpose, to appoint you a servant and a witness both of that which ..."
-
1
- Show all
1,600 furlongs is the linear distance between Bozrah/Petra and Jerusalem. That is the phenomenon that's taking place here.......Jesus wiping out the columns of armies coming to the refuge of Petra to destroy Israel.
Blood coming up to the horses bridles will occur in the wadis/gullies. Not necessarily everywhere in the fields.
I don't think too many people understand these matters. When you do it all makes perfect sense, And there is absolutely no need whatsoever for the ridiculous allegorization so heavily promoted by the addled Augustin-ites. And yes totally agree it is to be taken literally......
Blood coming up to the horses bridles will occur in the wadis/gullies. Not necessarily everywhere in the fields.
I don't think too many people understand these matters. When you do it all makes perfect sense, And there is absolutely no need whatsoever for the ridiculous allegorization so heavily promoted by the addled Augustin-ites. And yes totally agree it is to be taken literally......
IF IT IS PETRA WHERE THE 144,000 Flee to. With an earthquake that splits Mount of Olives, it could be an entirely newly formed place.
Besides the Petra, is south southeast of Jerusalem.
They are not coming to wipe out the 144,000. They are coming to STOP CHRIST from returning.
Revelation 19:19 (NASB)
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him
who sat on the horse and against His army.
This rider on a white Horse:
Revelation 19:11 (NASB)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Revelation 19:16 (NASB)
16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
IF IT IS PETRA WHERE THE 144,000 Flee to. With an earthquake that splits Mount of Olives, it could be an entirely newly formed place.
Besides the Petra, is south southeast of Jerusalem.
They are not coming to wipe out the 144,000. They are coming to STOP CHRIST from returning.
Revelation 19:19 (NASB)
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him
who sat on the horse and against His army.
This rider on a white Horse:
Revelation 19:11 (NASB)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Revelation 19:16 (NASB)
16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Okay.
Yes.
What I meant by saying that - more than anything else - is that our understanding should start with the 'grammar of the language' and the simple meaning of what it is actually saying.
The "manifold absurdities of futurism" (as you put it) exist because people try to "engineer" the meaning - reverse, sideways, whatever - instead of simply allowing scripture to explain itself.
The prophecy is about what God [had] appointed for Israel. And, in particular, the end of the 'Times of the Jews'.
It is not about anything else. It does not "go beyond" into the End Times Scenario.
However, because of the covenant - God includes information about the First Coming of Christ - which is intrinsic to the "conclusion" of the 'Times of the Jews'.
The prophecy is about the transition of:
~ Old Covenant to New Covenant
~ 'Times of the Jews' to 'Times of the Gentiles'
In time-and-event terms, the prophecy is 100% fulfilled.
Transition complete.
While it makes mention of events occurring after the end of the 490 years (i.e. - 70 A.D.), the end of the prophetic 490 years was in 34 A.D.
Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week.
The end of the 70th week - and 490 years - was the time of transition from the 'Times of the Jews' to the 'Times of the Gentiles.
This was around the time Stephen was stoned and Paul started his ministry to the Gentiles.
Yes.
What I meant by saying that - more than anything else - is that our understanding should start with the 'grammar of the language' and the simple meaning of what it is actually saying.
The "manifold absurdities of futurism" (as you put it) exist because people try to "engineer" the meaning - reverse, sideways, whatever - instead of simply allowing scripture to explain itself.
The prophecy is about what God [had] appointed for Israel. And, in particular, the end of the 'Times of the Jews'.
It is not about anything else. It does not "go beyond" into the End Times Scenario.
However, because of the covenant - God includes information about the First Coming of Christ - which is intrinsic to the "conclusion" of the 'Times of the Jews'.
The prophecy is about the transition of:
~ Old Covenant to New Covenant
~ 'Times of the Jews' to 'Times of the Gentiles'
In time-and-event terms, the prophecy is 100% fulfilled.
Transition complete.
While it makes mention of events occurring after the end of the 490 years (i.e. - 70 A.D.), the end of the prophetic 490 years was in 34 A.D.
Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week.
The end of the 70th week - and 490 years - was the time of transition from the 'Times of the Jews' to the 'Times of the Gentiles.
This was around the time Stephen was stoned and Paul started his ministry to the Gentiles.
-
1
- Show all
Ya - I think we will have to agree to disagree, although we agree significantly also.
i expressed myself clumsily.
People try to project onto Daniel 9 what they want to see, but actually you simply have to let the
prophecy speak for itself. Verses 26-27 describe in exact detail the destruction of Jerusalem.
Nobody incidentally has refuted what i wrote previously,
It is very important in my view to understand when Prophecy has been fulfilled, because after all,
failure to do so has resulted in the rejection of Christ, and provides the rational basis for a coming AntiChrist.
AS I said- nobody has refuted what i wrote - they all just carry on with their Futurist tribulation twaddle.
i expressed myself clumsily.
People try to project onto Daniel 9 what they want to see, but actually you simply have to let the
prophecy speak for itself. Verses 26-27 describe in exact detail the destruction of Jerusalem.
Nobody incidentally has refuted what i wrote previously,
It is very important in my view to understand when Prophecy has been fulfilled, because after all,
failure to do so has resulted in the rejection of Christ, and provides the rational basis for a coming AntiChrist.
AS I said- nobody has refuted what i wrote - they all just carry on with their Futurist tribulation twaddle.
Do not confuse the terms:
~ tribulation
~ judgment
~ wrath
The "explanation" in/of the chart is in/with the alignment of verses of scripture according to context and chronology.
You would do well to examine the chart. (That is what it is there for.)
If you examine the scriptures with this goal in mind:
~ What happens before what?
~ What happens after what?
~ What happens at the same time as what?
- then, the scriptures may be arranged in 'event' order.
This is the way the chart is arranged, and how the arrangement is determined.
It is in 'event' order.
And, if you will pay close attention to the 'detail', you will discover that the Bible defines some things differently than you were taught to believe.
As an example, the Bible does not define the 'Great Tribulation' [period] like most people tend to think.
If you look at it in 'event' terms according to the three questions listed above - and, based on how Jesus defines/describes it - you should discover that it does not align with 'seals', 'trumpets', 'vials', etc. like you want to believe.
As a case in point, the 'Great Tribulation' does not include-and-contain the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials' within it.
In 'event' terms, the 'trumpets' and 'vials' are entirely outside of (and, after) the 'Great Tribulation'.
Just because something is a judgment - or, "is [experientially] bad" - does not mean it is part of the 'tribulation' [period].
Take the time - make the effort - examine the chart.
It will save me having to write 100 paragraphs...
~ tribulation
~ judgment
~ wrath
The "explanation" in/of the chart is in/with the alignment of verses of scripture according to context and chronology.
You would do well to examine the chart. (That is what it is there for.)
If you examine the scriptures with this goal in mind:
~ What happens before what?
~ What happens after what?
~ What happens at the same time as what?
- then, the scriptures may be arranged in 'event' order.
This is the way the chart is arranged, and how the arrangement is determined.
It is in 'event' order.
And, if you will pay close attention to the 'detail', you will discover that the Bible defines some things differently than you were taught to believe.
As an example, the Bible does not define the 'Great Tribulation' [period] like most people tend to think.
If you look at it in 'event' terms according to the three questions listed above - and, based on how Jesus defines/describes it - you should discover that it does not align with 'seals', 'trumpets', 'vials', etc. like you want to believe.
As a case in point, the 'Great Tribulation' does not include-and-contain the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials' within it.
In 'event' terms, the 'trumpets' and 'vials' are entirely outside of (and, after) the 'Great Tribulation'.
Just because something is a judgment - or, "is [experientially] bad" - does not mean it is part of the 'tribulation' [period].
Take the time - make the effort - examine the chart.
It will save me having to write 100 paragraphs...
I don't really like posting here when I cannot express myself with 100% clarity, as the ethos here is not one of open discussion and a learning environment, but rather one of one-upmanship, theological badger-baiting and a carnal war to the death mentality.
However....
The translations all differ, but the gist is that 'after 62 (69 in effect) weeks the Anointed One is cut off.....'
Some translations simply replace the Anointed One with the Messiah.
Both the Church and the Temple are 'An Anointed One'.
After 69 weeks the Church and the temple system are entirely separated.
This is exactly as Jesus prophesied, and fulfills the requirements Abrahamic Covenant:
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
However....
The translations all differ, but the gist is that 'after 62 (69 in effect) weeks the Anointed One is cut off.....'
Some translations simply replace the Anointed One with the Messiah.
Both the Church and the Temple are 'An Anointed One'.
After 69 weeks the Church and the temple system are entirely separated.
This is exactly as Jesus prophesied, and fulfills the requirements Abrahamic Covenant:
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.