50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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There is obviously enormous confusion over the 490 years Gary.
The unassailable point is that God was making it deliberately very confusing
so that the religious leaders would be confused.
It is a lot easier though to reverse engineer -
start by seeing prophecy fulfilled, as the 70th week,
and then work out how the 490 years operates.
The unassailable point is that God was making it deliberately very confusing
so that the religious leaders would be confused.
It is a lot easier though to reverse engineer -
start by seeing prophecy fulfilled, as the 70th week,
and then work out how the 490 years operates.
I'm bad with words in the sense that I'm always wanting to use the exact one, a hopeless perfectionist I guess, but they're always just 'right there' but with a lot of question marks as ye may have notice and/or been annoyed with. And now I can't think of the word for re-researching... touching up on study?...no, that's not it... tweaking my studies?...pretty sure that's definitely not it... reviewing?..no? mebbe?...
But anyway, I re-researched the subject of trumpets, since it came up and (re?)learned that 'in later Jewish history, since the shofar was sounded throughout the preceding month of Elul, the blowing of the shofar on the first of Tishri (i.e., Rosh Hashana) was sometimes called the "last trump," while the shofar blast on Yom Kippur was called the "great trump," since at that time judgment was sealed" (H4C, "The Significance of the Shofar"). And elsewhere, likely at the same resource being a treasure trove of Jewish (temple) history, there was something about seven silver trumpets and a shofar, and thought surely there might be some relevance of this knowledge as aide in understanding the seven trumps in relation to the last and the great trumps whether these are differentiated or in fact the same trump... sounded at the rapture, that is.
And so with this in mind, with the help of reading further into the source text, that incidentally appeared to have the reference verses flipped as to which referred to the last with the other that cited the great, as might, albeit understandably, happen oft comparable to as much as the author works independently to keep this resource current but, even so, it appear to be no matter since Matt 24:31 (great) and 1 Corinthians 15:52 (last) are apparently speaking about the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
So then, the seven silver trumps appears to have something to do with the process before "the Day of Atonement" (at onement) but it seems to me that the seals are the tribulation, which afterward the 144,400 are sealed before the first trumpet is sounded and the angels begin gathering grapes for the winepress...
Looking at the characteristic observances of the Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur season, which including sounding trumpets every day up to the point of Roshana and then a 'great trump' at Yom Kippur (between which a ten day period of grace for repentance is allotted before judgment is sealed on Yom Kippur) and comparing them to the events portrayed in Revelation, these do seem to be a sort of 'stage production' of that bigger picture.
But anyway, I re-researched the subject of trumpets, since it came up and (re?)learned that 'in later Jewish history, since the shofar was sounded throughout the preceding month of Elul, the blowing of the shofar on the first of Tishri (i.e., Rosh Hashana) was sometimes called the "last trump," while the shofar blast on Yom Kippur was called the "great trump," since at that time judgment was sealed" (H4C, "The Significance of the Shofar"). And elsewhere, likely at the same resource being a treasure trove of Jewish (temple) history, there was something about seven silver trumpets and a shofar, and thought surely there might be some relevance of this knowledge as aide in understanding the seven trumps in relation to the last and the great trumps whether these are differentiated or in fact the same trump... sounded at the rapture, that is.
And so with this in mind, with the help of reading further into the source text, that incidentally appeared to have the reference verses flipped as to which referred to the last with the other that cited the great, as might, albeit understandably, happen oft comparable to as much as the author works independently to keep this resource current but, even so, it appear to be no matter since Matt 24:31 (great) and 1 Corinthians 15:52 (last) are apparently speaking about the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
So then, the seven silver trumps appears to have something to do with the process before "the Day of Atonement" (at onement) but it seems to me that the seals are the tribulation, which afterward the 144,400 are sealed before the first trumpet is sounded and the angels begin gathering grapes for the winepress...
Looking at the characteristic observances of the Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur season, which including sounding trumpets every day up to the point of Roshana and then a 'great trump' at Yom Kippur (between which a ten day period of grace for repentance is allotted before judgment is sealed on Yom Kippur) and comparing them to the events portrayed in Revelation, these do seem to be a sort of 'stage production' of that bigger picture.
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if you see that it works a certain way, then you can attempt to understand the mechanism within it.
This is what I mean by reverse-engineer.
It is perfectly correct and scriptural to see prophecy fulfilled, and this is a perfectly valid starting
point in understanding the 70 weeks. At least once one understands that the 70th week has been fulfilled
long ago, one avoids the manifold absurdities of futurism.
Thank you for your advice on forward understanding. Ok, we leave the simple stuff as you are beyond
that and we go on.
The 490 year prophecy is not de facto a Messianic prophecy, as it would seem most people assume.
It is actually a prophecy about Israel and Jerusalem. It is important to understand that.
If it is a prophecy just about Jesus then you can interpret it the way you and all the schools of
teaching seem to do. Jesus came - end of prophecy.
Deuteronomy 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
So you see the Messiah was prophesied to Israel, came to Israel, and so Israel and the Messiah are
inseparable really. And so a prophesy about the Messiah can include and will include Israel in its orbit,
and vice versa, a prophecy about Israel can and will include the Messiah in its orbit. The two are inseparable.
So in Daniel 9, Gabriel gives Daniel a prophecy about Israel, not about the Messiah per se.
That is not to say Jesus is not imputed in the prophecy, just that the prophecy is directed to Israel and Jerusalem.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city......
Why does Gabriel couch it this way? Like I said, you have to go back to Mosaic Law and Covenant to understand it.
The point being that when Jesus came it wasn't the end of the story for Israel; they then had to accept or reject him and rejection came with consequences. Gabriel's prophecy includes those consequences because it includes the end of
the sacrificial system and the total obliteration of the aforesaid system - if you like, the 'prohibition of transgression'
spoken of by Gabriel. Once the Temple was destroyed, the transgression of offering animals was put to an end.
This is what I mean by reverse-engineer.
It is perfectly correct and scriptural to see prophecy fulfilled, and this is a perfectly valid starting
point in understanding the 70 weeks. At least once one understands that the 70th week has been fulfilled
long ago, one avoids the manifold absurdities of futurism.
Thank you for your advice on forward understanding. Ok, we leave the simple stuff as you are beyond
that and we go on.
The 490 year prophecy is not de facto a Messianic prophecy, as it would seem most people assume.
It is actually a prophecy about Israel and Jerusalem. It is important to understand that.
If it is a prophecy just about Jesus then you can interpret it the way you and all the schools of
teaching seem to do. Jesus came - end of prophecy.
Deuteronomy 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
So you see the Messiah was prophesied to Israel, came to Israel, and so Israel and the Messiah are
inseparable really. And so a prophesy about the Messiah can include and will include Israel in its orbit,
and vice versa, a prophecy about Israel can and will include the Messiah in its orbit. The two are inseparable.
So in Daniel 9, Gabriel gives Daniel a prophecy about Israel, not about the Messiah per se.
That is not to say Jesus is not imputed in the prophecy, just that the prophecy is directed to Israel and Jerusalem.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city......
Why does Gabriel couch it this way? Like I said, you have to go back to Mosaic Law and Covenant to understand it.
The point being that when Jesus came it wasn't the end of the story for Israel; they then had to accept or reject him and rejection came with consequences. Gabriel's prophecy includes those consequences because it includes the end of
the sacrificial system and the total obliteration of the aforesaid system - if you like, the 'prohibition of transgression'
spoken of by Gabriel. Once the Temple was destroyed, the transgression of offering animals was put to an end.
I was struggling with the word I wanted to pinpoint the atmosphere but it came back to me... superciliousness 
But some people just repeat the same thing like they've got autism.
They don't actually engage in a dialogue, even if they are polite and not supercilious,
they just find a way to return to their train to its track.
Then you just feel like you're talking to a wall, which is not really healthy.
You feel like you are just a monad amongst monads - the antithesis of the church really.
It feels mad at that point.
Either way it is hard to have a dialogue, or a dialogue in the sense of something
interesting, challenging and conducive to spiritual growth.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Unless there is a clear verse that indicates resurrected and raptured believers being taken to heaven after the "gathering", your point doesn't prove a pretrib rapture. Only a verse that actually indicates believers being taken to heaven would prove it.
In fact, Scripture says the opposite. In both rapture (gathering) verses, the context is the Second Advent.
Is this your defense to my challenge? Then you don't have a defense. But, to address your ridiculous request, we see that Abraham's (who is Akedah?) offering of his son PARALLELS what God the Father did with His Son.
However, you don't even have a PARALLEL event to a rapture.
Actually, we have clear and undisputable proof that the rapture is post trib.
So, here's what I'd like you to do. I'm going to quote 2 Thess 2:1 and define 2 terms with parentheses.
Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Now, your turn. Quote the verse, and add in parentheses what "coming" means and "gathered" means. Like I did.
This will show me how you understand the verse.
This will definitely clarify your position.
Unless there is a clear verse that indicates resurrected and raptured believers being taken to heaven after the "gathering", your point doesn't prove a pretrib rapture. Only a verse that actually indicates believers being taken to heaven would prove it.
In fact, Scripture says the opposite. In both rapture (gathering) verses, the context is the Second Advent.
Is this your defense to my challenge? Then you don't have a defense. But, to address your ridiculous request, we see that Abraham's (who is Akedah?) offering of his son PARALLELS what God the Father did with His Son.
However, you don't even have a PARALLEL event to a rapture.
Actually, we have clear and undisputable proof that the rapture is post trib.
So, here's what I'd like you to do. I'm going to quote 2 Thess 2:1 and define 2 terms with parentheses.
Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Now, your turn. Quote the verse, and add in parentheses what "coming" means and "gathered" means. Like I did.
This will show me how you understand the verse.
This will definitely clarify your position.
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No offense to your wedsite, but rather than wade throughyour chart, please explain how the Trib can end before ALL of the judgments of God have been completed?
First there are 7 seals, then 7 trumpets, and finally 7 vials/bowls.
It seems you believe that the Trib is over afrter the 7 seals. Yet, there's 2 more sets of 7 judgments each to occur.
First there are 7 seals, then 7 trumpets, and finally 7 vials/bowls.
It seems you believe that the Trib is over afrter the 7 seals. Yet, there's 2 more sets of 7 judgments each to occur.
QUOTE. """However, you don't even have a PARALLEL event to a rapture"""
UH,
Jesus
Enoch
Elijah
Elisha
The 2 witnesses
The 10 virgin parable
One taken/ left BEFORE THE FLOOD IN CONTEXT
The 144 k before the throne DURING THE TRIB.
REV 19 SAINTS BECOME THE WIFE IN HEAVEN.
OH...NOPE...THERE ARE NO VERSES
FACEPALM
ALL OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
I AM SURE THERE ARE MANY MORE.
UH,
Jesus
Enoch
Elijah
Elisha
The 2 witnesses
The 10 virgin parable
One taken/ left BEFORE THE FLOOD IN CONTEXT
The 144 k before the throne DURING THE TRIB.
REV 19 SAINTS BECOME THE WIFE IN HEAVEN.
OH...NOPE...THERE ARE NO VERSES
FACEPALM
ALL OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
I AM SURE THERE ARE MANY MORE.
Istead of just making claims, how about explaining them. WHY would a gathering in Rev 14 need to "go away"?
How about YOU taking on my challenge and quoting 2 Thess 2:1 and inserting parentheses where I did, but put in the words you think should be there?
Not until you take up my challenge.
You're so funny.
You don't even have a verse that shows raptured believers going to heaven, yet you keep making such big boasts.
Let's just see how you understand 2 Thess 2:1 by what you put in parentheses.
How about YOU taking on my challenge and quoting 2 Thess 2:1 and inserting parentheses where I did, but put in the words you think should be there?
Not until you take up my challenge.
You're so funny.
You don't even have a verse that shows raptured believers going to heaven, yet you keep making such big boasts.
Let's just see how you understand 2 Thess 2:1 by what you put in parentheses.
Well, you have just demonstrated that you don't even understand what "parallel" means.
Regarding Abe and son, we have a father and son (his one and only son!). We have an offering of this one and only son.
Are you getting the picture yet? That's an exact parallel to God the Father sending His one and only Son to the cross, as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Exact parallel.
Now, since you think there is a 'parallel' in your list of people/groups, please explain HOW they parallel a rapture.
But to do that, you would need to show verses where people were removed from earth. That should be entertaining!!
I'll get the popcorn.
Regarding Abe and son, we have a father and son (his one and only son!). We have an offering of this one and only son.
Are you getting the picture yet? That's an exact parallel to God the Father sending His one and only Son to the cross, as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Exact parallel.
Now, since you think there is a 'parallel' in your list of people/groups, please explain HOW they parallel a rapture.
But to do that, you would need to show verses where people were removed from earth. That should be entertaining!!
I'll get the popcorn.
interesting point. This thread is up to 194 pages and 3,875 posts. The OP is about Walvoord's supposed "50 reasons for a pre trib rapture". Yet, rarely anyone even mentions a rapture anymore. Abs just did, but most of the conversations are about anything but a rapture. Disecting out the "490 years", pictures/drawings of a temple, anything and everything BUT a rapture.
What is clear from all this is that since the pretribbers CAN'T prove or even defend their theory, they have changed the subject altogether and discuss anything else.
What is clear from all this is that since the pretribbers CAN'T prove or even defend their theory, they have changed the subject altogether and discuss anything else.
Jesus told some of the Pharisees, "...because you claim that you can see, your guilt remains." in the last verse of John 9 and then He goes straightway into His explanation of the Good Shepherd in Chapter 10. This caused me to wonder if sheep were blind and, after a quick google, I find a claim that sheep have poor depth perception and have a tendency to move out of the dark and into well-lit areas but they do have an excellent sense of smell and sensitive hearing.
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