3 Statements...Just True or False
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Hello again Mem, that is one of the BIG questions that the church simply cannot answer. The church (all of it) holds that Adam and Eve were neither inclined towards sin (like we are) nor towards righteousness (like God is) when He created them, that their wills were w/o bias so to speak (or neutral).
So, when they chose to sin, what was the basis for their choice
That, as they say, is "the $64,000 question" (the question that the church continues to ask but is still unable to adequately answer).
What we do know is that they were made innocent, in God's image, and that He declared His creation of them to be not just "good", but "very good". The church also teaches (along with the Bible) that God is ~not~ the cause of our sin, therefore, He could not have created our progenitors as children of wrath (with a fallen/sinful nature) because that would mean that He was the Proximate Cause/the Author of their sin (and of ours).
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy
p.s. - just to throw an additional monkey wrench into the mix here, the church (West/East) holds two differing views concerning what resulted from our first parent's sin. Both teach that we share in the punishment that Adam received, death and a fallen/sinful nature, but only the West (RCC and Protestants) believe that we share in his guilt as well (seeing Adam as the federal head or representative of our entire race).
My questions about that are these, how can we be guilty of a sin that we didn't commit (on the one hand), but if we are not guilty (as the EOC believers) on the other, then how is it just for God to punish us for something that only Adam/Eve are guilty of doing?
LOTS of questions/LOTS of things to consider, yes Fortunately, even if the questions can never be answered by us on this side of the grave, this continues to be true: Deuteronomy 29:29. (God has made everything that we NEED to know clear to us, amen )
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So, when they chose to sin, what was the basis for their choice
That, as they say, is "the $64,000 question" (the question that the church continues to ask but is still unable to adequately answer).What we do know is that they were made innocent, in God's image, and that He declared His creation of them to be not just "good", but "very good". The church also teaches (along with the Bible) that God is ~not~ the cause of our sin, therefore, He could not have created our progenitors as children of wrath (with a fallen/sinful nature) because that would mean that He was the Proximate Cause/the Author of their sin (and of ours).
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy
p.s. - just to throw an additional monkey wrench into the mix here, the church (West/East) holds two differing views concerning what resulted from our first parent's sin. Both teach that we share in the punishment that Adam received, death and a fallen/sinful nature, but only the West (RCC and Protestants) believe that we share in his guilt as well (seeing Adam as the federal head or representative of our entire race).
My questions about that are these, how can we be guilty of a sin that we didn't commit (on the one hand), but if we are not guilty (as the EOC believers) on the other, then how is it just for God to punish us for something that only Adam/Eve are guilty of doing?
LOTS of questions/LOTS of things to consider, yes
Fortunately, even if the questions can never be answered by us on this side of the grave, this continues to be true: Deuteronomy 29:29. (God has made everything that we NEED to know clear to us, amen ).
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Some may fear that honesty will divide us, but I think that it is the glue that holds us together.
The goal is unity for sure, and honesty is an element in that "glue" for sure. But, there are times when we need to stir the pot when the herd is moving towards the cliff.
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Hello Mem
I think it was in his nature to sin, being of the natural world.However, he was not initially by nature a child of, or deserving of, wrath.
Along those same lines: I do not believe Adam was created "perfect."
We are perfected in Christ alone -
God was fully aware of the pain that would be required to complete man. Posth mentioned the aspect of Adam being put to sleep while forming Eve as foreshadowing the creation of the body of Christ through His death. And through further research I uncovered the symbolism of the side from which she was taken might well be relative to the "fifth" rib which is regarded as the place one intending to mortally wound would thrust his spear.
And then there's that I've probably thought too much into such things and should just rest a while on simpler matters.
If I'm sure about anything, I know that anxiety and frustration shouldn't be the result of any Bible study.
Shalom shalom, mem.
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You said Adam was worthy of gods wrath , what I was saying is Gods wrath is not death we all die like Adam did that isn't because of Gods wrath it's because we hear what God says is life , and do what he says is death in other words death is a result of man's sin , not Gods wrath
Two different things
Two different things
God's omniscience + Christ being purposed from before the foundation of the world...
I cannot call it a design flaw or weakness. Man was intended to find their life in Christ -
Romans 11:32
I cannot call it a design flaw or weakness. Man was intended to find their life in Christ -
Romans 11:32
But first
God created this
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26 KJV
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 1:27 KJV
Then the creation given do inion of earth provoked gods wrath like this
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 1:18-19, 21-32 KJV
Mankind's nature was corrupted because they rejected Gods knowledge and nature he freely gave them and exchanged truth for a lie
Then Israel was given a covenant to make them Gods kingdom on earth but they broke it repeatedly and worshipped false gods the whole old testament but for a solemn few generations eventually
The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Isaiah 24:4-6 KJV
The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isaiah 24:20 KJV
Then Afterwards God did this so that all people of faith can be saved before the curse if fulfilled
Like he did for Noah before the floor , God sent this ark out into all the world to save all creatures who will hear it and believe
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
The gospel is what restores the right understanding into our mind and then our heart because we believe we keep it and have faith this redeems us just as the wrong knowledge corrupted us
God bound all men over to sin so the gospel would later be preached to all for salvation
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Some may fear that honesty will divide us, but I think that it is the glue that holds us together.
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Well said brother
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:1-6, 11-16 KJ
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:1-6, 11-16 KJ
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There's no need to complicate things. Adam was created with a free will. At the same time the Bible says that while Eve was deceived, Adam was not deceived. So he simply chose to disobey God, and we are not told of his actual motivation. That was an extremely stupid decision with very serious consequences. Some claim that he loved Eve so much that he did not want to be separated from her in her sin. But that is pure conjecture.
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In regard to possible motivation, when I read of the account of Eve being deceived, Adam was with her and that made me think he LET Eve be deceived. He might have thought that she might get the blame alone since she initiated taking and eating the fruit. Also he probably waited to see what would happen to her when she ate it. Then when he saw that nothing terrible happened to her right away, he probably thought, "oh good, then I can try it as well."
Genesis 2:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
So to me, he really dropped the ball as to his role of leader of the family and husband. He was suppose to watch out for her, but he didn't do that.
Genesis 2:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
So to me, he really dropped the ball as to his role of leader of the family and husband. He was suppose to watch out for her, but he didn't do that.
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