3 Reasons Jesus Did Not Go To Hell

[Rhomphaeam]

You said: Some believe this was between His death and HIs resurrection. Some believe the "spirits in prison" were fallen angels mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6

Yes, that is what I believe. It is the theory that I think the most sense of the texts - and I admit it is just that - a theory. I believe it is tied in to Genesis 6:1-4 and the evil angels that sinned and cohabited with human women and produced the Nephilim. These angels were punished by God and put into Tartarus (see Jude 6). When Jesus went there and "preached" it was not a salvation message, but he simply proclaimed to them that their plan to corrupt human DNA (and thus keeping the Redeemer from being born) had failed.

It is the Church that will judge Angels. Perhaps the reason for that is because the entire realm of the Evil One is to make of men, women and children his commodity. Not unsurprising then that such commodity even came to be held in the Law of Moses as a mechanism to hold Israel in God's Hands. Where commodity becomes the number that perish, are judged and to what outcome they are judged, for mercy else to uphold the Lord's name in the sight of a world that sees all too clearly how it is the Lord's House that most displeases Him when they endlessly rebel and refuse Him. So you would think that setting the Church to be the Judge of the angelic realm outside of Satan Himself, would be a grave risk. Yet it is to perfection that we are called and chosen.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes, the spirits of those who were disobedient in the face of God’s long suffering and waiting are now in prison. The point is that the baptized are saved and are now preaching to those who will also one day find their spirits in prison due to their persecution and mistreatment of the righteous. This is why the righteous should endure with the same long suffering and patience as we see in the life and preaching of Noah.

Again, if you think this is talking about Jesus preaching to condemned souls, you need to explain why this makes sense in this particular context. Why would Jesus preach to the condemned and how would this preaching be an encouragement to those who are currently suffering for righteousness‘ sake? I am still waiting for someone to explain the rationale behind this view making contextual sense.

Just a fun fact here to go along with your post.

Do you know what the Adversary's/Satan's basic Heavenly Job besides being a Cherubim in the Garden was?

By popular Christian belief He led the Worship/Music of God. Ezekiel makes this statement about him:
"The workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

What's one requirement God asks of His human created offspring?

To Worship Him.

Seems intriguing by some sort of theory that God replaced Satan with US in a round about sort of way.

We are, after all, One LESS Stone..

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, the spirits of those who were disobedient in the face of God’s long suffering and waiting are now in prison. The point is that the baptized are saved and are now preaching to those who will also one day find their spirits in prison due to their persecution and mistreatment of the righteous. This is why the righteous should endure with the same long suffering and patience as we see in the life and preaching of Noah.

Again, if you think this is talking about Jesus preaching to condemned souls, you need to explain why this makes sense in this particular context. Why would Jesus preach to the condemned and how would this preaching be an encouragement to those who are currently suffering for righteousness‘ sake? I am still waiting for someone to explain the rationale behind this view making contextual sense.

He did it on Earth. Why can't he do it in hades?

 

[Chaps]

Rhom,

I am having trouble understanding your posts. I will quote them section by section to help you understand my confusion. I want to respond, but I really do not understand what you are confronting that I have said that you disagree with.

My point was not to make a force for argument or a claimed belief, it was a simple rational point that many children (and I mean those who are NOT of the age of accountability - means ALL those under the age of 21 or if you prefer ALL those who are of 20 years and under. AND I stated previously that this designation is taken out of Sinai.

Your point was that many children…..what? You never finished the statement.

Now you tell me that the Children who were brought to be blessed by Jesus, by their parents and were refused by the disciples - THOSE children in kind - in YOUR nation who are now bankrupt, broken and utterly basal in their ambitions - even often in the churches also - so in your legal theorising IT presumes to know where the unaccountable children go to wait for their judgement when you hide behind an impedes of a claim that I am accusing God of being unjust. So I said before time (earlier in this thread for your mind to grasp) that God's mercy triumphs over his Judgement. Now you say that children are not accountable after all so you accuse me - 'are you saying that God is unjust?'

What do you mean MY nation?
I dont feel I am “presuming” anything. I stated that Jesus said the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these (children). So, I would conclude that children do not go to hell or the spiritual prison mentioned in 1 Peter 3. Also, I wasn’t accusing you of anything. I asked a question. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that the global flood that killed children was unfair to the children. Maybe I misunderstood you. Anyway, I was asking a question, not making an accusation.
What do you mean “earlier in this thread for your mind to grasp”? You posted something earlier in my thread for my mind to grasp something or are you saying my mind was unable to grasp something you posted earlier in the thread?

A beggarly escape you make you Magistrate of Reason when you refuse the children.

A beggarly escape you make you…. I dont understand what this means. Also, I have never called myself the “Magistrate of Reason.“ If that is some kind of insult, I don’t know how I have warranted that. I have tried to use the Scriptures, not primarily “reason” to explain my views. Also, I dont know how I “refuse the children.” I said children are not in hell/spiritual prison. So how is my view “refusing” them?

You laid down a claim previously that you could NOT see any reason why anyone would need to hear anything by Christ in the prison of the dead. So it would follow that every child who perished in the days of Noah not only lost their life, but have perished, else as you now say, children never go to hell.

No, I dont believe children are in spiritual prison. If a child dies today, or in Noah’s day, I believe they go to be with the Lord. I dont know how I can be any more clear on this point. Jesus would not need to preach to children in spiritual prison from the days of Noah because they are not in spiritual prison as I see it. They are with the Lord.

Then on that seeming premise you had better explain the dominions of Death and Hell. You would also have to explain Paradise also. Both at the time of these proceedings (from the beginning until the resurrection of Christ from the dead) until the coming kingdom which will have no end.

I am not sure what you want me to explain. All men die. The righteous go to be with the Lord. The wicked go to spiritual prison to later be judged and sent to hell. I believe the little children are innocent and go to be with the Lord when they die…just as David, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, and other faithful believers. Although Christ had not come in their day, they were saved because of their faith, even though they did not understand the fullness of that faith and the means of their cleansing that was fulfilled in Christ.

 

[Chaps]

He did it on Earth. Why can't he do it in hades?

He did it on earth so that men might ”repent for the kingdom of heaven is near.” There is no repentance in the grave. That is why he wouldn’t preach in hades.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Also, I dont know how I “refuse the children.” I said children are not in hell/spiritual prison. So how is my view “refusing” them?

Agreed.



(I did not see you making such a point. The poster's [ @Rhomphaeam ' s] "reasoning" must've been "off" [off kilter] when reading your posts )

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes but they are not in prison where Christ went and preached to them. That's clearly something else that happened in association with his death.

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-52‬ ‭

“But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. ….

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:23, 35, 42-44, 50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

these men here lives and died before the law of Moses or “ hell” was ever spoken By God to man they waited for the day Christ would come

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It answers that question about the others who were drowned on earth without warning in those days because of mans wickedness even they had a chance to hear the gospel after all that time showing man isnt spiritually dead at all . We’re all condemned ( we all have a death sentance hanging over us that’s unavoidable ) to death

we aren’t dead yet Jesus can save our spirits and give us lasting life the second death is where the spirit will die it’s only condemned now but faces certain death without the gospel the book of life

if we were dead spiritually our bodies would have no life in them a body begins dying the moment a spirit leaves it our spirits are corrupted not dead we’re sick with a disease called sin and it’s condemned our flesh already and wants our everlasting souls by putting our spirit also to death in the second death

we all have one appt with death and judgement but we can survive it through Christ

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even a living animal has a living spirit that came from god mans did also were dying not dead

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It answers that question about the others who were drowned on earth without warning in those days because of mans wickedness

In no text does it state that they drowned "WITHOUT WARNING"


--Noah was "a preacher of righteousness"

(the text in Peter is saying "BY WHICH" [BY WHICH SPIRIT] He "went and preached"--but the vessel He "preached" through was NOAH. That is why the text in Peter ZEROES IN ON the time-period ONLY pertaining to "the days of Noah" v.20... and no other time-period--Consider WHY THIS IS);


--Methuselah and Lamech, also godly men, lived in the years preceding the flood;


--the text in Matthew isn't saying "they were not WARNED"; it is saying "THEY KNEW NOT [until]" but that's because they DISREGARDED the Word of God (via Noah) and thus perished in the flood [judgment], which is the point the Matthew passage (&Lk17) is conveying (as an example, for the future trib yrs leading up to His Second Coming to the earth Rev 19 ["and destroyed them ALL" - Lk17:27,29])

 

[ewq1938]

He did it on earth so that men might ”repent for the kingdom of heaven is near.”/QUOTE]


I don't think all he preached to could repent, or at least wouldn't.

There is no repentance in the grave. That is why he wouldn’t preach in hades.

I don't see why repentance is impossible in the grave. Anyways the scripture says he WENT to the prison to preach to the SPIRITS of men so they could be judged like flesh men. I don't see anything in the gospels that can match these details if this was just Jesus preaching to symbolically dead men.


1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Going somewhere to preach to the spirits of dead men in prison in a passage mentioning the death of Christ doesn't sound like what Jesus was doing during his Earthly ministry. The gospel can be preached to the lost to announce Christ's victory.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

In no text does it state that they drowned "WITHOUT WARNING"


--Noah was "a preacher of righteousness"

(the text in Peter is saying "BY WHICH" [BY WHICH SPIRIT] He "went and preached"--but the vessel He "preached" through was NOAH. That is why the text in Peter ZEROES IN ON the time-period ONLY pertaining to "the days of Noah" v.20... and no other time-period--Consider WHY THIS IS);


--Methuselah and Lamech, also godly men, lived in the years preceding the flood;


--the text in Matthew isn't saying "they were not WARNED"; it is saying "THEY KNEW NOT [until]" but that's because they DISREGARDED the Word of God (via Noah) and thus perished in the flood [judgment], which is the point the Matthew passage (&Lk17) is conveying (as an example, for the future trib yrs leading up to His Second Coming to the earth Rev 19 ["and destroyed them ALL" - Lk17:27,29])

Have you ever thought of giving this layout you have provided us with, a chronological dial?

A time - line stamp - beginning and end and all parts in-between?

 

[Evmur]

1 Peter 3:18–22 (ESV): For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Many who read the above verses are quick to conclude that Jesus went to Hell (or the place of torment) to preach to the captives there. I reject this position. I do not think the above verses teach this. Here are three reasons why:

1. The context does not support it.
The context of these verses is an encouragement from Peter to continue to do good and be faithful even in the face of false accusations and persecutions. Why would Jesus preaching to those in torment from the days of Noah provide encouragement to these Christians to endure faithfully?

2. The Spirit of Christ = The Holy Spirit.
Peter here is referring to the spirit of Christ that preached to the disobedient. In other words, Peter is referring to the preaching of Noah that was inspired by the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ. We see this terminology used elsewhere in this same letter from Peter:

1 Peter 1:10–11 (ESV): 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

So, Peter also refers to the “Spirit of Christ” at work in the prophets just two chapters prior. Thus, it would only make sense here that Peter is also referring to the preaching of the Spirit of Christ in Noah just prior to the flood. The ”disobedient” are now in prison due to their rejection of that preaching, not that the preaching happened while they are were in spiritual prison.

3. The Bible does not teach post-mortem repentance.
Hebrews 9:27 (ESV): And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. Not only does the Bible not teach the possibility of post-mortem repentance, it teaches the opposite. Only in this life do we have the opportunity to repent and find salvation. If the dead have the opportunity to repent at the preaching of Jesus, why should we preach? And if the opportunity was only afforded to those from the days of Noah, why would God grant them this unique opportunity? And again, what would the idea of post-mortem repentance have to do with encouraging Christians to endure hardship for the sake of righteousness? Wouldn‘t the idea of the wicked getting a second chance to repent be, at best irrelevant, and at worst discouraging? Some might argue that Jesus‘ preaching to them in prison does not mean they were able to repent. Why would Jesus preach to the condemned if they had no opportunity to respond? Just to show them how wrong they were? And again, if so, why focus specifically on the disobedient in Noah’s time and not in Jeremiah or Isaiah’s time?

What is Peter teaching?
For me, the clear message here from Peter is that Christians should not shrink back from suffering for righteousness’ sake. The struggle they are facing is a temporary one. One day, they will be saved from the challenges they now face. Just as Noah was mocked and scoffed at, enduring the evils of his era righteously, he was saved by God from that evil through the flood. The wicked that persecuted Noah in his righteousness and obedience are now in prison. In the same way, baptism saves us from the evil of this world and points to our ultimate salvation from those who mock, scoff, and mistreat us. Thus, we should not be discouraged or lose heart. Just as Noah was vindicated, so also, Christians will be vindicated who remain faithful and do not lose heart.

I got 2 points to make
first is Hebrews 9:27 does not say it is appointed for man once to die and after that damnation. It says and after that the judgement. Everybody ASSUMES it means damnation....everybody.
Everybody ASSUMES that everyone raised in the final resurrection are damned ... everybody. Revelations 20 does not teach that. The Great White Throne.
Books were opened, also another book was opened which is called the book of life and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.

...and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Secondly if you say that only in this life have we the opportunity to repent and so be saved then you have to explain the BILLIONS who live and die and never once hear the gospel preached savingly. This would be a MASSIVE failure on God's part.

I don't believe it for one moment.

Folks skate over scriptures that don't quite fit into their doctrinal framework [get rid of those frameworks ] I mean scriptures like when Jesus says "if anyone who gives one of these little ones who believe on Me so much as a drink of water they shall not lose their reward"

We've got to stop damning people.

Romans 2. 14
When the Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires they are a law unto themselves even though they do not have the law.

They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.

Me? I am very hopeful of a much, much wider mercy than that which is currently believed by most evangelicals.

 

[cv5]

1 Peter 3:18–22 (ESV): For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Many who read the above verses are quick to conclude that Jesus went to Hell (or the place of torment) to preach to the captives there. I reject this position. I do not think the above verses teach this. Here are three reasons why:

1. The context does not support it.
The context of these verses is an encouragement from Peter to continue to do good and be faithful even in the face of false accusations and persecutions. Why would Jesus preaching to those in torment from the days of Noah provide encouragement to these Christians to endure faithfully?

2. The Spirit of Christ = The Holy Spirit.
Peter here is referring to the spirit of Christ that preached to the disobedient. In other words, Peter is referring to the preaching of Noah that was inspired by the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ. We see this terminology used elsewhere in this same letter from Peter:

1 Peter 1:10–11 (ESV): 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

So, Peter also refers to the “Spirit of Christ” at work in the prophets just two chapters prior. Thus, it would only make sense here that Peter is also referring to the preaching of the Spirit of Christ in Noah just prior to the flood. The ”disobedient” are now in prison due to their rejection of that preaching, not that the preaching happened while they are were in spiritual prison.

3. The Bible does not teach post-mortem repentance.
Hebrews 9:27 (ESV): And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. Not only does the Bible not teach the possibility of post-mortem repentance, it teaches the opposite. Only in this life do we have the opportunity to repent and find salvation. If the dead have the opportunity to repent at the preaching of Jesus, why should we preach? And if the opportunity was only afforded to those from the days of Noah, why would God grant them this unique opportunity? And again, what would the idea of post-mortem repentance have to do with encouraging Christians to endure hardship for the sake of righteousness? Wouldn‘t the idea of the wicked getting a second chance to repent be, at best irrelevant, and at worst discouraging? Some might argue that Jesus‘ preaching to them in prison does not mean they were able to repent. Why would Jesus preach to the condemned if they had no opportunity to respond? Just to show them how wrong they were? And again, if so, why focus specifically on the disobedient in Noah’s time and not in Jeremiah or Isaiah’s time?

What is Peter teaching?
For me, the clear message here from Peter is that Christians should not shrink back from suffering for righteousness’ sake. The struggle they are facing is a temporary one. One day, they will be saved from the challenges they now face. Just as Noah was mocked and scoffed at, enduring the evils of his era righteously, he was saved by God from that evil through the flood. The wicked that persecuted Noah in his righteousness and obedience are now in prison. In the same way, baptism saves us from the evil of this world and points to our ultimate salvation from those who mock, scoff, and mistreat us. Thus, we should not be discouraged or lose heart. Just as Noah was vindicated, so also, Christians will be vindicated who remain faithful and do not lose heart.

An interesting perspective for sure.

But.....there is this:

1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

There seems to be both a juxtaposition of state (flesh THEN death THEN quickened) AND juxtaposition of location (earth THEN prison THEN heaven) noted in the context.

So it seems to me that there is more than just a general teaching on righteousness going on here.

 

[cv5]

An interesting perspective for sure.

But.....there is this:

1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

There seems to be both a juxtaposition of state (flesh THEN death THEN quickened) AND juxtaposition of location (earth THEN prison THEN heaven) noted in the context.

So it seems to me that there is more than just a general teaching on righteousness going on here.

Furthermore, there are concordant passages that fit quite well into the theory that Jesus, in the transitory state (three days in the grave before He resurrected Himself) did "PROCLAIM" to the fallen angels in Tartarus before He ascended.

2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jde 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, G3613 he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

And here is the "kicker" for the fallen angels view.....

2Co 5:2
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house G3613 which is from heaven:

The KJV translates Strong's G3613 in the following manner: house (1x), habitation (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. a dwelling place, habitation of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit

Its very clear from these two verses that YES, the flood angels took a DOWNGRADE to mate with human women,
and we Christians receive and UPGRADE to new spiritual bodies.

 

[cv5]

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hades), neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
.

Agree these are supporting passages to the theory that Jesus was PROCLAIMING to the fallen pre-flood angels.

 

[ewq1938]

I got 2 points to make
first is Hebrews 9:27 does not say it is appointed for man once to die and after that damnation. It says and after that the judgement. Everybody ASSUMES it means damnation....everybody.

Damnation means "judgment".

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
Thayer Definition:
1) a separating, sundering, separation
1a) a trial, contest
2) selection
3) judgment
3a) opinion or decision given concerning anything
3a1) especially concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
3b) sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment
4) the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)
5) right, justice
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps a primitive word

Heb 9:27 AndG2532 asG2596 G3745 it is appointedG606 unto menG444 onceG530 to die,G599 butG1161 afterG3326 thisG5124 the judgment:G2920

Same word in this verse.


Always check what Greek word is used.

 

[cv5]

I got 2 points to make
first is Hebrews 9:27 does not say it is appointed for man once to die and after that damnation. It says and after that the judgement. Everybody ASSUMES it means damnation....everybody.
Everybody ASSUMES that everyone raised in the final resurrection are damned ... everybody. Revelations 20 does not teach that. The Great White Throne.
Books were opened, also another book was opened which is called the book of life and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.

...and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Secondly if you say that only in this life have we the opportunity to repent and so be saved then you have to explain the BILLIONS who live and die and never once hear the gospel preached savingly. This would be a MASSIVE failure on God's part.

I don't believe it for one moment.

Folks skate over scriptures that don't quite fit into their doctrinal framework [get rid of those frameworks ] I mean scriptures like when Jesus says "if anyone who gives one of these little ones who believe on Me so much as a drink of water they shall not lose their reward"

We've got to stop damning people.

Romans 2. 14
When the Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires they are a law unto themselves even though they do not have the law.

They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.

Me? I am very hopeful of a much, much wider mercy than that which is currently believed by most evangelicals.

The issue is actually SEPARATION.

By God's definition, death is SEPARATION from Him. Eternal death = eternal separation.

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
Thayer Definition:
1) a separating, sundering, separation

Adam did not keel over when he ate the fruit. But he did willingly decide to DIE aka SEPARATE from his God to save the woman.

The first Adam in the first garden sweat great drops of blood (in effect) agonizing over his FREE WILL decision to DIE (give up his life of sweet loving harmony and perfect fellowship with his God, becoming a sinner) to take responsibility of the sin of his bride to save his bride.

The last Adam in the olive garden sweat great drops of blood agonizing over his FREE WILL decision to DIE (give up his life of sweet loving harmony and perfect fellowship with his God, becoming sin for us) to take responsibility of the sin of His Bride to save His Bride.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Rhom,

I am having trouble understanding your posts. I will quote them section by section to help you understand my confusion. I want to respond, but I really do not understand what you are confronting that I have said that you disagree with.



Your point was that many children…..what? You never finished the statement.



What do you mean MY nation?
I dont feel I am “presuming” anything. I stated that Jesus said the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these (children). So, I would conclude that children do not go to hell or the spiritual prison mentioned in 1 Peter 3. Also, I wasn’t accusing you of anything. I asked a question. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that the global flood that killed children was unfair to the children. Maybe I misunderstood you. Anyway, I was asking a question, not making an accusation.
What do you mean “earlier in this thread for your mind to grasp”? You posted something earlier in my thread for my mind to grasp something or are you saying my mind was unable to grasp something you posted earlier in the thread?



A beggarly escape you make you…. I dont understand what this means. Also, I have never called myself the “Magistrate of Reason.“ If that is some kind of insult, I don’t know how I have warranted that. I have tried to use the Scriptures, not primarily “reason” to explain my views. Also, I dont know how I “refuse the children.” I said children are not in hell/spiritual prison. So how is my view “refusing” them?



No, I dont believe children are in spiritual prison. If a child dies today, or in Noah’s day, I believe they go to be with the Lord. I dont know how I can be any more clear on this point. Jesus would not need to preach to children in spiritual prison from the days of Noah because they are not in spiritual prison as I see it. They are with the Lord.



I am not sure what you want me to explain. All men die. The righteous go to be with the Lord. The wicked go to spiritual prison to later be judged and sent to hell. I believe the little children are innocent and go to be with the Lord when they die…just as David, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, and other faithful believers. Although Christ had not come in their day, they were saved because of their faith, even though they did not understand the fullness of that faith and the means of their cleansing that was fulfilled in Christ.

As difficult to perceive as it may be for you to understand what I am 'asking' from your claimed perspective, I suppose that I ought to say that I didn't perceive myself to be expressly asking anything other than to imply very forthrightly that it is God who requires and gives consequence to how children are met in their obedience to their parents. I gave a rather shocking account of such a thing arising in Northern Iraq some years ago. I was making a rather stark point.

But you did not see any relevance to your comment to which I was responding.

You have offered a few responses since that were on mark and valid (as was claimed - contextually). Of course, the 'context' that is claimed in this instance of whether Christ descended into Tartarus or another region of Hades, IS the issue because the issue is the claim to descend into the regions of Death and Hell. By my raising a speculation about those children who lost their lives in the days of Noah I was simply making a point to outcome - yet with a concern that you and several others are using what seems like a lifeless force to assert profound spiritual truths.

I have read through the entire thread several times, and am likely to do so again in the early hours of the morning. If I can say anything else then I will.

 

[Chaps]

I got 2 points to make
first is Hebrews 9:27 does not say it is appointed for man once to die and after that damnation. It says and after that the judgement. Everybody ASSUMES it means damnation....everybody.
Everybody ASSUMES that everyone raised in the final resurrection are damned ... everybody. Revelations 20 does not teach that. The Great White Throne.
Books were opened, also another book was opened which is called the book of life and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.

...and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Secondly if you say that only in this life have we the opportunity to repent and so be saved then you have to explain the BILLIONS who live and die and never once hear the gospel preached savingly. This would be a MASSIVE failure on God's part.

I don't believe it for one moment.

Folks skate over scriptures that don't quite fit into their doctrinal framework [get rid of those frameworks ] I mean scriptures like when Jesus says "if anyone who gives one of these little ones who believe on Me so much as a drink of water they shall not lose their reward"

We've got to stop damning people.

Romans 2. 14
When the Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires they are a law unto themselves even though they do not have the law.

They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.

Me? I am very hopeful of a much, much wider mercy than that which is currently believed by most evangelicals.

First, I never said all who are judged are damned. I simply said that judgment comes after death. Nowhere does Scripture say that after death comes preaching, possible repentance and then judgment.

Second, Scripture is very clear that without hearing the Gospel there is no salvation. Why would the feet of those who bring “good news” be blessed if that news is not necessary to save anyone. I would also say that men are not condemned for failure to believe the Gospel. They are condemned due to their sin.

So my questions to you would be the following:

Why would the Apostles feel it so critical to share the Gospel (to the point of sacrificing their own lives) if that Gospel was not essential for men to hear and be saved? Can you share with me any Scriptures that indicate someone can be saved apart from the Gospel? If so, how are they saved? By their good works or lack of sinful actions? If this is so, why did Jesus have to die? Why would it be a failure on God’s part if people are condemned apart from believing the Gospel?

The context of Romans 2 is that the Jews are not better off than the Gentiles. In fact, many of the Gentiles are more righteous, not having the law, than the Jews who have the law. For the Gentiles, without the law (Paul argues) are often more righteous than many of the Jews because they are more obedient to their conscience than the Jews are to the law. Paul’s point is simply that possessing the Law does not save anyone for many who have it do not keep it…and those who do not have it live better lives than those who do. However, it is a huge mistake to suggest that Paul’s point here is that the Law or the Gospel are unnecessary. Romans 3 makes it clear that this is not the case. Paul’s entire point in this rhetoric is to show that “none are righteous, not even one.”

God is merciful because He saves the ungodly from the consequences of their actions through faith in the Gospel. The idea that anyone who is condemned for their sin reflects some failure on God’s part is a complete dismissal of the entirety of the teaching of the NT.

 

[Chaps]

As difficult to perceive as it may be for you to understand what I am 'asking' from your claimed perspective, I suppose that I ought to say that I didn't perceive myself to be expressly asking anything other than to imply very forthrightly that it is God who requires and gives consequence to how children are met in their obedience to their parents. I gave a rather shocking account of such a thing arising in Northern Iraq some years ago. I was making a rather stark point.

But you did not see any relevance to your comment to which I was responding.

You have offered a few responses since that were on mark and valid (as was claimed - contextually). Of course, the 'context' that is claimed in this instance of whether Christ descended into Tartarus or another region of Hades, IS the issue because the issue is the claim to descend into the regions of Death and Hell. By my raising a speculation about those children who lost their lives in the days of Noah I was simply making a point to outcome - yet with a concern that you and several others are using what seems like a lifeless force to assert profound spiritual truths.

I have read through the entire thread several times, and am likely to do so again in the early hours of the morning. If I can say anything else then I will.

Well, i appreciate you reading through the thread. I suppose if you see my comments as a “lifeless force” void of “profound spiritual truths” then I dont have much to say. My guide on these matters is the Scriptures, not some self-asserted spiritual profundity. If the basis of your arguments are that you are more spiritually perceptive and deep than I am, then I suppose there is no point in discussing matters further. To me, this seems like nothing more than Christianized name-calling. “You just aren’t spiritually deep enough or prophetic enough to understand me” marks the end of a discussion, imo. Especially when these comments are in contrast to my efforts to discuss what the Word of God teaches. In sum, if we cannot have a discussion about the actual text and meaning of Scripture as the basis of our understanding of truth, then we have no basis to continue. Clearly you see yourself as far more insightful and enlightened than I am, and I am not really interested in engaging in a fruitless argument about who is more spiritual. I do not pretend to know anything about you, your life, or your walk with God. I am pretty sure you know equally as little about me. I am surprised as a fellow Christian, you would judge me so quickly on such matters.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

this seems like nothing more than Christianized name-calling. “You just aren’t spiritually deep enough or prophetic enough to understand me” marks the end of a discussion, imo. Especially when these comments are in contrast to my efforts to discuss what the Word of God teaches.

There is NO contrasting effort. There is NO action to force (Newtons Third Law) and there is NO name calling.

I do understand your point of course about the perceived zeitgeist of diabalos who mercilessly accuses you so well that even a mere wisp on a sea born storm is sufficient to drive the galley onto the rocks and to ruin.

Shalom