Quran Contradictions

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#21
I got called kaffir by muslims. Using their fists was something that they thought was ok
It could be that these weren't Islamic scholars.

I also may have heard this from 'moderate Muslims' while radicals might take a different approach. Not all Muslims interpret everything the same way.

There are also some anti-Jews passages in the Al-Qur'an from the time Muslims were at war with Jewish groups. There was Jewish kingdom down there back in the day. This get quoted as polemics by modern Muslims.

Muslims are also pretty negative toward the idea of the use of images in worship. There are those who have a lot of statues or icons and bow to Mary. Some Muslims may consider this to be 'shirk'-- associating partners with God-- idolatry.

There are also Muslim apologists who try to argue that Muhammad is the Paraklete. This is 'shirk' of the worst variety, IMO, since Jesus was talking about God's own Spirit. And some Muslims think that 'holy spirit' refers to Gabriel, which is another example.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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#22
also, and as with all false "religions" is a belief one can do works to earn heaven.
We know there is ONe way,and that is through the atoning work of Jesus.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
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#23
Peace, @Tinkerbell725

You write:

‘Christians are called infidels in the Quran right?

Nope!

The word ‘infidel’ was coined in the mid-15th century. It is derived from the Middle French ‘infidèle’, or Latin ‘īnfidēlis’; meaning ‘not faithful’; and was used by the Church to denote anyone who did not accept its core doctrines, or who belonged to a different religion. The word does not exist in classical Arabic, and is not found in the Qur’an.

‘Infidel’ is sometimes used (incorrectly) to render the Qur’anic word ‘kafir’; a word derived from the root K-F-R (kafara); one meaning of which is ‘to cover’ or ‘to conceal’:

'Bear in mind that the present life is just a game, a diversion, an attraction, a cause of boasting among you, of rivalry in wealth and children. It is like plants that spring up after rain: their growth at first delights the sowers ('l-kufāra'), but then you see them wither away, turn yellow, and become stubble. There is terrible punishment in the next life as well as forgiveness and approval from Allāh; the life of this world is only an illusory pleasure.' (Al-Hadid: 20).

A sower covers the seed at planting time; and because of this may be called (without any pejorative implication) a ‘kafir’ – ‘one who covers’.

Kufr becomes a sin when a believer (Jew, Christian or Muslim) deliberately buries – in her heart – what she knows to be true, in order to disobey: ‘I know I really shouldn’t be doing this, but I’m going to do it anyway….just this once……it’ll be alright.’

John Calvin captures the meaning of ‘kufr’ (in this context) when he writes:

‘I say, therefore, that he sins against the Holy Spirit who, while so constrained by the power of divine truth that he cannot plead ignorance, yet deliberately resists, and that merely for the sake of resisting.’ (‘Institutes of the Christian Religion; Book 3; Chapter 3; Section 22).

The word ‘kafir’ is also used to denote one who is ungrateful; one who refuses to acknowledge favours given by their Lord:

‘And so Moses said to his people, ‘Remember God’s blessing on you when He saved you from Pharaoh’s people, who were inflicting terrible suffering on you, slaughtering your sons and sparing only your women – that was a severe test from your Lord! Remember that He promised, “If you are grateful, I will give you more, but if you are ungrateful (‘kafartum’), My punishment is terrible indeed.” ’ And Moses said, ‘Even if you, together with everybody else on earth, are ungrateful, God is self-sufficient, worthy of all praise.’
(Ibrahim: 6-8).

Puritan Muslims use ‘kafir’ as a term of abuse; applying it especially to Christians and Jews. This is not correct. Indeed, according to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, a Muslim commits an offence if he accuses a Christian or a Jew of unbelief (cf. Encyclopaedia of Islam: second edition).

It has already been said: Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to Christian and Jews as ‘Ahl al-kitab’ (the ‘People of the Book’ – an honorific title). This is what He has to say about them:

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8; my emphasis).

Puritans claim that these verses have been abrogated by the following:

‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85).

The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic. This word can also be rendered ‘submission’.

Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; giving the impression that the verse refers to that particular Faith alone. They argue that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life. But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course). And the best ‘way of life’ is one spent in complete devotion to the Beloved.

Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

By the way, sūrah Al‘Imran was the 89th to be revealed. Sūrah Al-Bayyina was the 100th.

I would be very interested to learn how a sūrah can abrogate one that came after it.

I hope this answers your question.

Continued:


This abrogation doctrine in Islam is proof of how incompetent Allah is as a God. He keeps changing his words. Abolish laws and change them.

An example of this abrogation is about how Adam was made. The Quran has so many versions of how Adam was made. What should you believe? The current updated version?
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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#24
Islam believes God is so vast he is unknowable, from Genesis to Revelation we have wonderful teaching of God's true nature, who his is and how to know Him.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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#25
Islam believes God is so vast he is unknowable, from Genesis to Revelation we have wonderful teaching of God's true nature, who his is and how to know Him.
Very dangerous. An unknowable god is one that can quickly be made into the worshippers own image.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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#26
That is what we have with islam. Some of moes own followers thought he was mad with his claims of visitation.
The murdering of believers in Afghanistan at this moment is a part of this devil worshiping cult, so contrary to the Galatians 5 attributes of the one true God.
Turkey and Pakistan, both muslim nations persecuting Christians are supporting the taliban and isis, as is Red China.
 

Moses_Young

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Sep 15, 2019
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#28
I have to say, I respect the Muslims I have met. They seem to treat their religion seriously, and don't compromise with the world, like many do who say they are Christians. But sadly, they are deceived by a false god. Probably their belief that Allah is unknowable is also how they can think it's alright to abuse women the ways they do - that there is some hidden justification for it.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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#29
There is also a requirement to lie if it furthers islame.
 

Moses_Young

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Sep 15, 2019
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#30
There is also a requirement to lie if it furthers islame.
Yeah. That probably helps them keep a straight face when they tell you that Islam isn't violent to women. :-|

I believe they think of Allah as "the great deceiver". I've heard that title somewhere before.
 
Aug 4, 2021
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#31
This abrogation doctrine in Islam is proof of how incompetent Allah is as a God. He keeps changing his words. Abolish laws and change them.

An example of this abrogation is about how Adam was made. The Quran has so many versions of how Adam was made. What should you believe? The current updated version?
OK. The widely accepted truth among islamic scholars regarding the abrogator and abrogation, is that the last surah replace the old one. The old one is to be used as a minority, to be granted mercy and allowed to exist while growing the numbers. Just as Muhammed did in the Mecca days.

When he became all powerful, andd went to war with the religions who tolerated him and his followers, he changed it 180 on important stuff. Theese are the medina surahs. And remember, muslims are supposed to live lke Muhammed lived. That does mean to deceive the way he did in the meccadays, while growing an army. And when you have gained enough power, you unwavery force through the Medina doctrine without negotiations. If that makes it clearer. I suggest you listen to scholars from the region, speaking to their own. Because they are very blunt about it among themselves. It is where the imams sent around the world, get educated.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#32
Another comment on Islam and the use of 'Allah as a name for God.

The evidence, IMO, seems to weigh in the direction of 'Allah as a pre-Islamic word for God used by Christians before Muhammad came on the scene. Pre-Islamic Arab Christians did not leave any Bible translations or written liturgies, or if they have, those I have read were unaware of them. But it is said that an early Christian named Abdullah brought Christianity to the Arabs, or to some of them. He may actually have been a slave. I forget his father's name or surname. Abdullah was a name given at Christian baptisms.

Abdullah is a contraction of Abdu Allah, meaning servant of Allah, or servant of God.

A friend of mine was a tour guide in the middle east and he said one of the carved references to 'Allah in a cave was also pre-Islamic.

The word 'Allah is believed to be a contraction of 'Al 'illah. All is the definite article, like 'the' in English. Now it is not regular. It does not follow the standard rules of Arabic grammar like Abdullah does, but this is the theory that Semitic linguists hold to, and what I was told in Arabic class.

Semitic languages have a lot of cognate words. A set of words in Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, etc. will often have three letters in common. So the word for book, scribe, and write may share the three letters. Here is more details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-T-B

There are a lot of cognates between Arabic and Hebrew. In Hebrew, the word 'eloah', which translates as 'God' or 'god' in the singular, is believed to be cognate with 'illah in Arabic. The three letters are ' (aleph or glottal stop, which is a letter in Hebrew and Arabic), the equivalent of l, and the equivalent of H. I'm not sure why Arabic is doubled and Hebrew is not. But I disgress.

So it is likely that 'Allah' is cognate with 'Eloah' in Hebrew. The plural is 'Elohim' in Hebrew. It also shows up in the shortened form 'El.

In much of the word, God is referred to as 'Allah' in various languages. You can hear this in Arabic, for example, and Indonesia, and you will find it in languages in between---geographically-- Indonesia and the Arab-speaking world. Christians call God 'Allah.' Bibles refer to God as 'Allah.

I have heard preachers say stuff like, "'Allah is not God." One preacher who said that was from the Assemblies of God at the time, and his denomination in Indonesia is called Sidang Jemaat Allah.

There are those who say that some of the Sabeans, in what is now Yemen, one of the locations some associate with the kingdom of the Biblical Queen of Sheba, worshipped a god and goddess, where the god was a moon god named Allah and the goddess was a sun goddess named Allat. Whether this is true or not in that southern area, it seems likely that the name 'Allah' was used also to refer to the Biblical God. The words 'El and 'Elohim in Hebrew and Hebrew languages like Canaanite was used for false gods and/or a wrong concept of God. The Ugarits had a figure named 'El who was the head of their pantheon, but the true God does not get drunk or fall in His own vomit like stories about pagan Ugaritic El. That doesn't make the uses of the word 'El' that refer to God to be illegitimate, such as El-Elyon or El-Shaddai. Nor does the alleged Sabean use of the word mean Christians cannot or did not use "'Allah" to refer to the God of Abraham.
 

Niblo

New member
Jul 14, 2021
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#33
You refer to an ‘abrogation doctrine in Islam’; and write:

‘An example of this abrogation is about how Adam was made. The Quran has so many versions of how Adam
was made. What should you believe? The current updated version?

The Qur’an consists of 114 sūrahs, and 6,235 verses. Of these, some 350 are concerned with legal matters; and are the foundation of the Shariah.

The majority of the legal verses (some 140 in all) deal with devotional matters. A further seventy are concerned with family matters; and yet another seventy with commercial transactions. Around thirty verses are concerned with judicial and community matters. The remaining verses are concerned with economic and social matters – including workers’ rights.

Mohammad Hashim Kamali, a former Professor of Law at the International Islamic University of Malaysia, writes:

‘The Qur’an may make a general statement or lay down a ruling of unqualified import in one place and specify or qualify those passages elsewhere in the text, and may be also in a different and unexpected place or context. It is for the jurist and commentator then to provide digested conclusions from a variety of passages that may have implications for one and the same particular text or subject. These and similar other classifications of the words and sentences of the Qur’an have given rise, in turn, to an elaborate science of textual interpretation (tafsir), allegorical interpretation (ta’wil) and other branches of Qur’anic sciences, such as phenomenology of the Qur’an, or occasion of its revelation (known as asbab al-nuzul), division of the Qur’an into the Makki and Madini portions and legal consequences that may flow from it with regard to, for instance, the incidence of abrogation (naskh) of the Makki by the Madini verses, rules of interpretation and syntax, incantation (tajwid), gradualism in the revealed text (tanjim), inimitability (i͑jaz) of the Qur’an, and so forth.

‘Most of these classifications were attempted for better understanding of the text, mainly by Muslim jurists and commentators, and they influence most of the other branches of Islamic learning, but they are not a part of the Qur’an.’ (‘Shariah Law’).

According to the Jurists, five conditions need to be applied before an instance of ‘abrogation’ can be established:

1. The abrogated law must have been revealed by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

2. The abrogating law must also have been revealed by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

These two conditions rule out all ʼaḥādīth narratives; and all private – scholarly - opinions.

3. The abrogated law must have been abolished (by the abrogating law) absolutely, and not just partially.

4. The abrogated and abrogating laws must be ‘completely contradictory’.

This means that they cannot be reconcilable, so there is no possibility of both of them being valid at any one point.

5. The abrogating law must be revealed after the law that it abrogates.

Continued:
 

Niblo

New member
Jul 14, 2021
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#34
The concept of ‘abrogation’ is not found in the Qur'an; nor is there a single reliable ḥādīth to the effect that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) ever declared a verse of the Qur'an to have been ‘abrogated’.

This is what Dr. Israr Ahmad Khan has to say on the subject:

‘Neither God nor His Prophet ever guided man in a categorical manner that this verse or that verse is practically invalid. There are many verses in the Qur’an that spell out various attributes of the Qur’an (e.g., guide, wise, cure, et cetera.), which necessitate the practical relevance of the Qur’an in its entirety. There is no authentic statement of the Prophet referring to the abrogated verses of the Qur’an. The only viable way to resolve the abrogation-related controversy is to endeavour to interpret the verses concerned. Sincere effort to understand the practical relevance of the verses in dispute will certainly bring results.’ (‘Arguments for Abrogation in the Qur’an: A Critique’; my emphasis).

Louay Fatoohi writes:

"Abrogation cannot be established by the “ijmāʿ (consensus)” of any number of scholars or by “qiyās (analogical reasoning).” This means that there has to be unequivocal evidence from the Qur'an or the sayings and doings of the Prophet for any case to be considered an instance of abrogation. Yet, as we shall see later, there is not a single case of alleged abrogation that cannot be seriously questioned.

‘Scholars stress that abrogation applies only to practices, not to beliefs. This means that in the Qur'an it applies only to “imperative” verses, i.e. verses that carry commandments, but not to “indicative” ones.

‘Verses such as those recounting the story of Moses cannot be abrogated because they relate history, and this cannot change.’ (‘Abrogation in the Qur'an and Islamic Law (Routledge Studies in Religion Book 22’); my emphasis).

Note: Historical narratives – such as the creation of Adam, or the stories of Abraham or Moses – cannot be
abrogated.

The story of ʾĀdam’s creation appears in six sūrahs:

'Your Lord said to the angels, "I will create a man from clay".' (Sad: 71). The 38th sūrah to be revealed.

‘Allāh said, “What prevented you (Iblis) from bowing down as I commanded you?” and he said, “I am better than him: You created me from fire and him from clay”.’ (Al-A‘raf: 12). The 39th sūrah to be revealed.

‘When We said to the angels, “Bow down before ʾĀdam,” they all bowed down, but not Iblis. He retorted, “Why should I bow down to someone You have created out of clay?".’ (Al-Isra: 61). The 50th sūrah to be revealed.

‘We created man out of dried clay formed from dark mud…’ (Al-Hijr: 26). The 54th sūrah to be revealed.

‘So (Prophet), ask the disbelievers: is it harder to create them than other beings We have created? We created them from viscous clay.’
(Al-Saffat: 11). The 56th sūrah to be revealed.

‘He created mankind out of dried clay’ (Al-Rahman: 14). The 97th sūrah to be revealed.

Other verses relate that humans in general – and this would, of course, include ʾĀdam – were created from dust.

Commenting on Al-Rahman: 14, Shaykh Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes:

‘Dried clay is literally “sounding clay,” referring to the sound fired clay makes when struck. Several verses discuss the creation of the human being from various forms of earth: from dust; from dried clay, made of molded mud; and from a viscous clay.

When combined with v. 14, these verses can be seen as describing the stages of human creation: from dust, to viscous clay, to molded mud, to dried clay, like earthen vessels, at which point it is then ready for the Spirit to be blown into it.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’).

To say that ʾĀdam was created from ‘dust’ does not contradict the statement that he was created from ‘clay’; since (in the context of both the Qur’an and (as we shall see) the Bible, ʾĀdam was created of the earth. The terms ‘dust’ and ‘clay are interchangeable in both Scriptures.

Continued:
 

Niblo

New member
Jul 14, 2021
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#35
‘And the LORD God formed man of the dust ('aphar’ )of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.’ (Genesis 2:7).

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance defines 'aphar’ as: ‘Dust (as powdered or gray); hence, clay, earth, mud -- ashes, dust, earth, ground, mortar, powder, rubbish.’

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum reminds us that the word ‘formed’ renders the Hebrew ‘yatzar’ (to mould; or to shape).

He goes on:

‘Man was created from the ground itself. The picture is that of something made out of clay…. In Hebrew, his name is Adam and the ground is adamah. The best way to translate this figure of speech is, “God formed the earthling from the earth,” which reflects beautifully that God created Adam from the adamah.’ (‘The Creation of Adam and Eve: Gen 2:4-25’; my emphasis).

The American theologian, Albert Barnes agrees:

‘His material part is dust from the soil, out of which he is formed as the potter moulds the vessel out of the clay. He is אדם “Adam,” the man of the soil, ארמה 'ădāmâh “adamah.”’ (‘On The Old Testament: Albert Barnes’ Notes On The Whole Bible’).

In Genesis we read: ‘In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.’ (3:19; my emphasis).

In Job we read: ‘Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? (10:9); and again: ‘Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.’ (33:6).

And in the Psalms: ‘ Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him. For He knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.’ (Ps 103: 13-14).

Conclusion:

The use of ‘dust’ and ‘clay’ in both Scriptures is intended to emphasise mankind’s humble origins. We are the Beloved’s creation. We are not just the one (‘dust’), or just the other (‘clay’). We are of the Earth. We are of both.

Blessings be upon you.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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#36
heard a teaching from a noted and accurate Biblical teacher that Baal of the old testament is more completely written "Ba-al-allah", indicating the Allah of islame is more accurately the "Ba-al" of the old testament. I have found a lot of articles on this, here is one.
https://thebottomlineat.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-allahbaalsatan-connection.html

Jesus is Lord, the one way to become one with the Father, the Bible is the Word of God. There is no other.
blessings to His Own in Jesus name.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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#37

Niblo

New member
Jul 14, 2021
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#38
The Beloved is not how Muslims normally refer to Allah.

It sounds more Sufi? Yes? No? I am curious :D
So sorry, Magenta. I overlooked you........loooooong senior moment. :eek:.

No, I am not a Sufi, merely someone who has been around a long time; long enough to appreciate what the Beloved truly is.

May His blessing be upon you; and on those you love.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
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Philippines Age 40
#39
heard a teaching from a noted and accurate Biblical teacher that Baal of the old testament is more completely written "Ba-al-allah", indicating the Allah of islame is more accurately the "Ba-al" of the old testament. I have found a lot of articles on this, here is one.
https://thebottomlineat.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-allahbaalsatan-connection.html

Jesus is Lord, the one way to become one with the Father, the Bible is the Word of God. There is no other.
blessings to His Own in Jesus name.



Allah was the little idol god of Muhammad's Quraysh tribe. Muslims worship the demon behind that idol.



https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=29&ue=m
 

Niblo

New member
Jul 14, 2021
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#40
You ask:

‘Is it true that Muslims will be given 72 virgins as wives in Paradise…………….?’

This notion is a fanciful misguidance, intended to appeal to impressionable young men, who are high in testosterone, but low in knowledge.

It is not found in the Qur’an.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says:

‘But those mindful of Allāh will be in a safe place amid Gardens and springs, clothed in silk and fine brocade, facing one another: and we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes.’ (Al-Dukhan: 52-54; my emphasis).

The text ‘and we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ renders: ‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin.’

Surah Al-Tur: 20 says likewise: ‘and we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ (‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin.’

The Arabic for a virgin (or maiden) is ‘al-adra’.

The word ‘biḥūrin’ in these sūrahs stems from the Arabic ‘ḥūri’; a word that applies to both sexes; (being the plural of ‘awhar’ (masculine) and ‘hawra’ (feminine).

In the Garden, therefore, men shall be wed to fair companions who are female; and women to fair companions who are male.

You continue:

‘And that there will be a free sex market in Paradise and also overflowing rivers of wine?’

The Qur’an refers to Heaven as ‘al-janna’, meaning ‘the garden’. It is the home of the righteous; the home of Peace.

Professor M.A.S. Abdel Haleem writes of al-janna:

‘Full knowledge of the real nature of the rewards of the righteous, the Qur’an says, ‘is kept hidden’, it has not been given to any human. The same verbal form is used in Arabic to negate such knowledge – la ta‘lamu – applies to the present and to the future: fa lā ta‘lamu nafsun mā ‘ukhfiya lahum min qurrati a‘yūnin' (No soul knows what joy is laid up for them secretly as a reward for what they were doing.)

‘No discomfort or ill health will result from eating and drinking there. The drink is pure. It neither dulls their senses nor causes intoxication (37:47); it causes no headaches (56:19); it is a cup which does not lead to any idle talk or sin (52:23).

‘In these pleasing surroundings stand ‘good, peaceful homes’ (9:72) with ‘lofty dwellings built for them, one above the other, graced with flowing streams’ (39:20). There are detailed descriptions of these goodly dwellings (e.g. 55:52–72; 56:15–34; and 88:13–16) – raised couches upholstered in brocade, goblets placed ready, cushions arranged and carpets outspread. We see the dwellers in pleasant company: ‘they will enter perpetual gardens, along with their righteous ancestors, spouses, and descendants’ (13:23; and 52:20–1) adorned in green silk. They sit on couches in a relaxed manner, engaged in pleasant conversation, recalling happy memories, absorbed in rejoicing; their faces shining, laughing and joyous (80:38–9).

‘There is no overt mention in the Qur’an of sex taking place between spouses in janna, although the relationship is lawful between spouses and the Qur’an does not shy away from mentioning it in the context of this world. The mutual love (‘uruban) between spouses in the garden (56:37–8) epitomises the most fulfilling aspect of the relationship between spouses as expressed in the Qur’an: Another of His signs is that He created spouses from among yourselves for you to live with in tranquillity: He ordained love and kindness between you (30:21).’

‘Part of God’s blessing on the righteous is that they will be joined in paradise with the righteous of their parents, spouses (azwāj) and offspring (13:23)…… Al-Janna is not the home of ‘believing men’ only but also of ‘believing women’. (‘Understanding the Qur’an – Themes and Style’; my emphasis).

Peace and Blessings be on you.