Works Complete Faith?

[romans113336]

Martha Martha


"...only one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the good portion, and it will not be taken away from her."

Plus, you're a cook, just like Martha, hypocrite!

 

[romans113336]

@Locoponydirtman It was a joke, what I said about @Mem, bc we had discussed desserts.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Oh, OK, when you're ready to lay it all out for me, explain the errors I expressed about Ro 7, there, you can go ahead...

There's no need. You are already committed to what you believe.

 

[romans113336]

There's no need. You are already committed to what you believe.

No, I have the truth, and you're already blindly committed to what you believe.
See how that works?
Empty assertions mean nothing.

Discussion is where assertions are proven.
You coming here and pretending to discuss, pretending to have a valid point, but not actually discussing, not actually substantiating your assertions, is another lie just like the lies you believe.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You coming here and pretending to discuss, pretending to have a valid point, but not actually discussing, not actually substantiating your assertions, is another lie just like the lies you believe.

This is false. I brought up that justification is by grace through faith, but you failed to acknowledge that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8) + NOTHING. So now you should quote that passage from the KJV and tell us all exactly what it means and when justification goes into effect.

 

[romans113336]

This is false. I brought up that justification is by grace through faith, but you failed to acknowledge that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8) + NOTHING. So now you should quote that passage from the KJV and tell us all exactly what it means and when justification goes into effect.

1. This is about my view on Ro 7, so let's not get sidetracked--I expect your rebuttal or your concession.
2. I've already answered Ep 2 many times, and on different counts. Example : our salvation by grace through faith is compared, by Paul, to that of the Jews from Egypt. They were saved by the blood of lambs, were baptized, and "ate communion", but, bc they sinned after salvation they fell under Gods wrath, and forfeited the promise, and Paul says it was written down for us to understand what happens in Christianity, and said he guided his life by that written instruction, making his flesh his slave, and keeping it under control (1 Co 9:27). I'm just believing the Bible. I affirm salvation by grace through faith.

 

[romans113336]

This is false. I brought up that justification is by grace through faith, but you failed to acknowledge that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8) + NOTHING. So now you should quote that passage from the KJV and tell us all exactly what it means and when justification goes into effect.

There is no mutual exclusivity between a past-tense justification, by grace through faith, and an ongoing justification, and even a final justification (Ro 2 :6-16) based on walking in grace through faith.

As stated in the first post, which you're free to answer, Paul says the rule for Christians is "let every man be fully convinced [about his actions] in his own mind", and if the believer does not follow that rule, when he breaks it, it is "sin", and he is not "justified" but "condemned" Ro 14:23.
Well, this is nothing other than James 2, which teaches Abraham was justified by walking in faith (not doubt).

You guys who disagree are just picking the bits you like, and disregarding the bits you don't like, like picky eaters. I was raised to eat what was put before me, even if I didn't like it, so I do my best to take it all in.

 

[romans113336]

This is false. I brought up that justification is by grace through faith, but you failed to acknowledge that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8) + NOTHING. So now you should quote that passage from the KJV and tell us all exactly what it means and when justification goes into effect.

You can go through this thread and see how many times, and in how many different ways, I've answered this issue.

An apology from you, for your having spoken against me, but in ignorance, would be nice, but I'd settle for at least an acknowledgment that I've answered the issue.

 

[selahsays]

1. Yes, it is tangential--we're merely saying, as the Scripture states, works complete faith, so that saying "Abraham was justified by faith" is the same as saying "Abraham was justified by walking in faith", and there is no mutual exclusivity between these two statements. What Paul militated against, in Romans, was justification by "works of the Law", which are "weakened through the flesh" (Ro 8:3), thus called "the flesh" (Gal 3:3).
2. I do not claim to have a satisfactory understanding of election and predestination, so I would rather not make so many comments on that. What I can know is that it cannot mean what you all claim it does, for a few reasons: a) "the elect obtained, the rest were cut off", yet Paul goes about seeking the salvation of the "non-elect" who were cut off, and affirms they can be grafted back in if they do not remain in unbelief, and, also, that those branches which had been grafted in by faith (the "elect") can be cut off for unbelief (as we see occurring with the Galatians--"you are so quickly deserting Him Who calls you... having begun in the spirit... [they were nevertheless] severed from Christ"), and b) as stated, if God "predestined" good works for us to walk in, and every sin "thwarts" that predestination, it is not as "firm" a predestination as you would have it.

have to leave for a bit, but I shall return

 

[TMS]

Justification is by faith alone.
Faith in Jesus alone. Not in our own works. We can not earn or work to gain justication.

But Faith without works is dead.

Faith and works go hand in hand and can't be seperated.

We need Faith in Jesus, and we will naturally do works if it is true faith.

Fruits of the Spirit come by faith.

When Namaan washed 7 times in the Jordan River was it faith or works?

Stop trying to seperate them.

 

[selahsays]

I’m hoping not to go off “tangentially.”

To begin with, I do agree that works complete faith.

But,

these works have already been preordained for us to do—created to do so in Christ Jesus, through His blood that was shed on the cross. Also, we need to understand that the saints have been predestined to salvation, not works. We are saved by God’s GRACE through faith.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (KJV)
. . . . .
God has predestined us to be holy. ….and so, for example, we will preach the Gospel:

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

- Philippians 2:13-15 (KJV)
. . . . .

God’s Grace:

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

- 2 Peter 1:1-4 (KJV)

 

[AmberLee]

Actually, you don't understand what you're saying: read Ro 14:5,23,where Christians are commanded to follow the rule of walking by their beliefs, and where Christians are condemned for sinning by not doing it.

Since you're saying "the only faith category is about Jesus dying and resurrecting", then the "sin" that leads to a Christian's "condemnation", because he is not walking by faith, and anything we do that isn't from faith is "sin", Ro 14:23, must be the loss of his faith in Christ.

It's not my issue that you don't know what you're saying when it comes to this issue.

 

[AmberLee]

Justification is by faith alone.
Faith in Jesus alone. Not in our own works. We can not earn or work to gain justication.

But Faith without works is dead.

Faith and works go hand in hand and can't be seperated.

We need Faith in Jesus, and we will naturally do works if it is true faith.

Fruits of the Spirit come by faith.

When Namaan washed 7 times in the Jordan River was it faith or works?

Stop trying to seperate them.

romans113336---it is obvious that you don't understand what Faith is ------there are 3 types of faith ----all faith comes from God ------James describes these 3 types of faith ------

there is intellectual faith that God gave to us at birth ---this faith relies on your 5 senses ------this faith is a non producing Faith -----why because you believe what you see ---feel ---taste --touch and smell ----you have faith in the chair you see to sit in will hold you when you sit in it ----you have faith in your Doctor to heal you with the Pill you take ----this faith won't save you ------

there is demonic Faith ----even the demons believed in Jesus and they can't be saved -----so this Faith is a non producing faith-----

there is God's Faith --Producing Faith ----given to us by hearing God's Word ------so you believe in what you don't see ----this Faith produces what the Word says ------

The word tells you how to be saved --so you put your Faith in what the Word says and by that Faith it compels you to act and do as the word says ------so this Faith produces what God's word says it will produce -----God's Word is alive and active -----



Faith always precedes Works ---

View attachment 256225

you should read this whole thing ----on what Faith is and isn't ---I am just posting this part

https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation". e "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation".

"Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" , ).

"Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by

I say
The woman with the Blood disease -----had the right producing faith in Jesus to heal her ------and this Right Faith propelled her into action to get to Jesus to be healed ------no one or nothing could stop her from her action of getting to Jesus to be healed -------she had strong Faith ----

She had faith but by stepping out and seeking and believing that she would be healed goes had in hand. Jesus knew her heart and motive

 

[Mem]

Plus, you're a cook, just like Martha, hypocrite!

I couldn't cook to save my soul

 

[Truthnightmare]

Yep, "even as thy soul prospereth"--first things first.

And, again, don't want to get off on a tangent.

Indeed… Consider this…
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

Are you suggesting there is salvation by works outside of Christ?

No… I’m suggesting that faith is dead without works… and if faith is dead your salvation is dead.

Revelation
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

We were given certain commandments, and instructions…
Jesus said….
John 14
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The commandments require work, do you think you can just believe, with no works, and still be deemed as loving Christ.

A person needs faith to enter the kingdom, but faith can be erased by no works. You are saying that faith can’t be erased.

Scripture says it can. No work, no faith, no faith no salvation.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Indeed… Consider this…
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.


No… I’m suggesting that faith is dead without works… and if faith is dead your salvation is dead.

Revelation
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

We were given certain commandments, and instructions…
Jesus said….
John 14
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The commandments require work, do you think you can just believe, with no works, and still be deemed as loving Christ.

A person needs faith to enter the kingdom, but faith can be erased by no works. You are saying that faith can’t be erased.

Scripture says it can. No work, no faith, no faith no salvation.

I wasnt talking to you.
I do not refute the idea that works accompany faith. In fact i said faith necessarily procudes works. Unless faith produces some works there is no evidence of faith and is therefore either dying or dead.

 

[evyaniy]

read it and smile.

Ephesians 1

3 Blessed be the EL and Father of our Adonai Yeshua the Messiah, Who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Messiah, 4 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before Him in love, 5 having predestined us for adoption as children through Yeshua the Messiah to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His desire, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He freely gave us favor in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have our redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Him 10 to an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Messiah, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him. 11 We were also assigned an inheritance in Him, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him Who does all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we should be to the praise of His glory, we who had before hoped in Messiah. 13 In Him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in Whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 Who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of EL’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The letter also gives excellent instructions on how we should try to live as believers. Yet still we are not without sin which is why we are told how to try to live as believers.

 

[mailmandan]

This is false. I brought up that justification is by grace through faith, but you failed to acknowledge that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8) + NOTHING. So now you should quote that passage from the KJV and tell us all exactly what it means and when justification goes into effect.

Works-salvationists will typically say they affirm salvation by grace through faith, but what they really believe is salvation through faith + works. In many cases, salvation by works at the back door or what I call "type 2 works salvation." I even once heard someone say we are "initially" justified by faith, yet we are also justified by works, too which is a part of your faith. See how that works? Smoke and mirrors.

These folks are not fooling me.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Period.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Works-salvationists will typically say they affirm salvation by grace through faith, but what they really believe is salvation through faith + works. In many cases, salvation by works at the back door or what I call "type 2 works salvation." I even once heard someone say we are "initially" justified by faith, yet we are also justified by works, too which is a part of your faith. See how that works? Smoke and mirrors.

These folks are not fooling me.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Period.

“Work’s Salvationist”? I’ve never heard this term. So if I’m correct, a person that believes faith without works is dead can now be labeled a work Salvationist.

You can cast labels, but the Bible says faith without works is dead. If your faith is dead, where is your salvation? According to your logic, a person can have dead faith and salvation. There are a bunch of people with dead faith, but that’s ok, because even though there faith is dead it is some how magically alive.

 

[mailmandan]

“Work’s Salvationist”? I’ve never heard this term. So if I’m correct, a person that believes faith without works is dead can now be labeled a work Salvationist.

A works-salvationist believes we are saved by faith + works.

You can cast labels, but the Bible says faith without works is dead. If your faith is dead, where is your salvation? According to your logic, a person can have dead faith and salvation. There are a bunch of people with dead faith, but that’s ok, because even though there faith is dead it is some how magically alive.

See post #305.