Works and Salvation

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Soyeong said:
While it is true that Abraham believed God, so it was counted to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed as being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4). In James 2:21-24, he quoted Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning it as a wage.
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I respectfully suggest you're still not telling me Paul's point from chapters 2-3 and how Abraham in chapter 4 proves the point. No need to go to other books, Paul gives plenty of detail in the context.

Soyeong said:
In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for the Mosaic Law, which is in accordance with believing the Gospel that Christ taught in Matthew 4:15-23 to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand and with believing in what Christ accomplished in Titus 2:14 in that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works.
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Once you see the point Paul is making, that will clear this up.
 
Dino246 said:
You've done a marvelous job of confusing a simple issue.

Here's the simple version:

We don't get saved by our own effort, period.

Once we are saved, we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to participate in the work of the kingdom.
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When is a gift not really a gift? When it is imposed upon someone without their prior consent,

If I slip someone a highly addictive drug that they could never afford to pay for, and provides it free of charge, without getting their prior consent, and they become addicted so that they subsequently want more, would that be a gift? They didn't get addicted by their own effort. Once addicted they wanted more of the same.
 
PaulThomson said:
When is a gift not really a gift? When it is imposed upon someone without their prior consent,

If I slip someone a highly addictive drug that they could never afford to pay for, and provides it free of charge, without getting their prior consent, and they become addicted so that they subsequently want more, would that be a gift? They didn't get addicted by their own effort. Once addicted they wanted more of the same.
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I'm trying to understand how your example relates to the gift of salvation. :unsure:
 
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Repentance is essential, with which there is faith when we respond to God to turn from sinful living without God. Then as we would grow there are then or sometime not so long after spiritual works, that correspond to spiritual fruit we are to have, coming from those, with love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control showing from us, these grow more and shouldn't be limited.
 
FredVB said:
Repentance is essential, with which there is faith when we respond to God to turn from sinful living without God. Then as we would grow there are then or sometime not so long after spiritual works, that correspond to spiritual fruit we are to have, coming from those, with love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control showing from us, these grow more and shouldn't be limited.
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Repentance is a 'change of mind, heart'. Before salvation.. we can't 'turn from sin' as a behaviour. We can't do any kind of good deeds that would lead to salvation.

Why? Because before salvation, a person is dead in sin. They have no redemptive merit in just being human.

So.. when someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.. it is not actually 'turning from sin'.. if that is meant by a good behaviour. The salvation is coming from Jesus.. not us. I didn't get saved because I did something behaviour wise.. but because Jesus saved me inspite of my my doings.

Salvation isn't something we do.. it's a gift of God.. not by works. 'Turning from sin' is incredibly popular to put in tracts.. but it is something we can only do AFTER conversion.. if it is meant by a behaviour of lessening sin in our lives. If it is meant.. 'going from unbelief.. to belief..' then I can agree with it.

John 5:24, 6:40, 10:28. Romans 10:9-10. These scriptures aren't about 'turning from sin'.. but believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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wattie said:
Repentance is a 'change of mind, heart'. Before salvation.. we can't 'turn from sin' as a behaviour. We can't do any kind of good deeds that would lead to salvation.

Why? Because before salvation, a person is dead in sin. They have no redemptive merit in just being human.

So.. when someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.. it is not actually 'turning from sin'.. if that is meant by a good behaviour. The salvation is coming from Jesus.. not us. I didn't get saved because I did something behaviour wise.. but because Jesus saved me inspite of my my doings.

Salvation isn't something we do.. it's a gift of God.. not by works. 'Turning from sin' is incredibly popular to put in tracts.. but it is something we can only do AFTER conversion.. if it is meant by a behaviour of lessening sin in our lives. If it is meant.. 'going from unbelief.. to belief..' then I can agree with it.

John 5:24, 6:40, 10:28. Romans 10:9-10. These scriptures aren't about 'turning from sin'.. but believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Preach it brother. Every time this is debated it comes down to ," What is believing or trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ?" Is it a work that has merit?

Absolutely NOT. Believing or trusting in someone or something has NO merit. It is the thing that is believed or trusted that has the merit.

Can I boast or puff myself up for breathing the air? No, the air/oxygen has the merit. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved........ALL the merit goes to the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
wattie said:
Repentance is a 'change of mind, heart'. Before salvation.. we can't 'turn from sin' as a behaviour. We can't do any kind of good deeds that would lead to salvation.

Why? Because before salvation, a person is dead in sin. They have no redemptive merit in just being human.

So.. when someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.. it is not actually 'turning from sin'.. if that is meant by a good behaviour. The salvation is coming from Jesus.. not us. I didn't get saved because I did something behaviour wise.. but because Jesus saved me inspite of my my doings.

Salvation isn't something we do.. it's a gift of God.. not by works. 'Turning from sin' is incredibly popular to put in tracts.. but it is something we can only do AFTER conversion.. if it is meant by a behaviour of lessening sin in our lives. If it is meant.. 'going from unbelief.. to belief..' then I can agree with it.

John 5:24, 6:40, 10:28. Romans 10:9-10. These scriptures aren't about 'turning from sin'.. but believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Repentance is turning to the Lord. It is a positive action. Turning away from certain sins in not enough to deliver us from the power of sin. We simply replace our enchantment with those sins to toying with different sins. But changing our focus onto the sinless Christ automatically takes our focus off all sins; and keeping our focus on the sinless Christ keeps our mind off sinning.

God presents us with such an attractive presentation of Christ in the incarnation, life, death and resurrection that He grabs our attention and affection and, in so doing we are granted repentance. We do have the innate ability and freedom to choose, after these attention grabs, to keep our attention on Jesus Christ our to turn our attention back to the things of the world.

The idea of repentance from sin as a precursor to coming to Christ is not the biblical concept of repentance IMHO.
 
PaulThomson said:
It's aimed at those who believe God regenerates before believing in Christ can begin. Maybe that's not you.
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Regenerated before believing in Jesus is contrary to the declaration in the New Testament.

Bearing fruit without the Holy Spirit is impossible.

Ephesians 1:13-14
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and
believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our
inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Acts 19:2-6
He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him,
“On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then
were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism
of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid
hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

You need to demonstrate from the scripture that the Holy Spirit fell on unbelievers!

On people that have never heard the gospel.
 
PaulThomson said:
It's aimed at those who believe God regenerates before believing in Christ can begin. Maybe that's not you.

Inquisitor said:
Regenerated before believing in Jesus is contrary to the declaration in the New Testament.

Bearing fruit without the Holy Spirit is impossible.

Ephesians 1:13-14
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and
believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our
inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Acts 19:2-6
He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him,
“On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then
were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism
of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid
hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

You need to demonstrate from the scripture that the Holy Spirit fell on unbelievers!

On people that have never heard the gospel.
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Why do I need to demonstrate from scripture something I don't believe scripture teaches?
 
Inquisitor said:
Regenerated before believing in Jesus is contrary to the declaration in the New Testament.

Bearing fruit without the Holy Spirit is impossible.

Ephesians 1:13-14
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and
believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our
inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Acts 19:2-6
He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him,
“On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then
were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism
of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid
hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

You need to demonstrate from the scripture that the Holy Spirit fell on unbelievers!

On people that have never heard the gospel.
Click to expand...
You don't believe there are different operations of the Spirit?
 
FredVB said:
Repentance is essential, with which there is faith when we respond to God to turn from sinful living without God. Then as we would grow there are then or sometime not so long after spiritual works, that correspond to spiritual fruit we are to have, coming from those, with love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control showing from us, these grow more and shouldn't be limited.
Click to expand...

Repentance really means turning to Jesus from unbelief.

Repentance really means bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

I don't care if someone stops a sin or sins.

People across the planet give up sinful behaviors all the time.

That is not repentance.

Repentance is all about loving Jesus and loving others.

That's a real repentance.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit must be evident in a persons life.
 
PaulThomson said:
PaulThomson said:
It's aimed at those who believe God regenerates before believing in Christ can begin. Maybe that's not you.



Why do I need to demonstrate from scripture something I don't believe scripture teaches?
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Because you are making a claim that the New Testament does not support.

A believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit for salvation after they believe.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth
he confesses, resulting in salvation.

How can a person confess the name of Jesus without knowing about Jesus?

How can a person confess Jesus without first believing in Jesus?
 
Cameron143 said:
You don't believe there are different operations of the Spirit?
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You need to supply the scripture that demonstrates that the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Is visible in a person that does not believe in Jesus.

You also need to explain how a person confesses Jesus without ever hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Prove your claim from the scripture.
 
PaulThomson said:
PaulThomson said:
It's aimed at those who believe God regenerates before believing in Christ can begin. Maybe that's not you.



Why do I need to demonstrate from scripture something I don't believe scripture teaches?
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Because Acts 19:2-6 tells us the opposite, believe and receive the Holy Spirit.

Not receive the Holy Spirit then believe.
 
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Inquisitor said:
You need to supply the scripture that demonstrates that the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Is visible in a person that does not believe in Jesus.

You also need to explain how a person confesses Jesus without ever hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Prove your claim from the scripture.
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I haven't made a claim. I'm asking questions.

I'll ask a different way: do you believe sealing is an inward or outward operation of the Spirit?
 
Cameron143 said:
You don't believe there are different operations of the Spirit?
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Of course there are different gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit.

Though we are talking about salvation itself.

We hear the gospel and either believe or disbelieve.

You must first hear the gospel before anything else can occur.

Faith comes from hearing the gospel.
 
Inquisitor said:
Of course there are different gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit.

Though we are talking about salvation itself.

We hear the gospel and either believe or disbelieve.

You must first hear the gospel before anything else can occur.

Faith comes from hearing the gospel.
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Is sealing an inward or outward operation of the Spirit?
 
Cameron143 said:
I haven't made a claim. I'm asking questions.

I'll ask a different way: do you believe sealing is an inward or outward operation of the Spirit?
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Your making claims and now your asking questions.

Both the inward sealing for salvation is first then, the fruit will appear over some
period of time.
 
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