Works and Salvation

[mailmandan]

Here is what James, brother of Christ says about works and salvation;

Faith Without Works Is Dead
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth itprofit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Peace.

In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In regard to "faith being alone" or "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - *fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Soyeong]

I understand this is your view for me the moment He found me I didn't have to do anything to receive that free gift. When did it change?

The content of a free gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work does not detract from it being given as a free gift. In a similar way, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23).

OT anyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved/delivered.

All of the ways that God is referred to in the Bible describe aspects of His character, so calling on the name of Lord is recognizing who He is and is identifying with His character, which is also the way of salvation. The way to know God is by acting in accordance with His character in obedience to His law, which is eternal life (John 17:3), which is also the way that God saves us from sin that is contrary to His character.

Romans 10:13 is also connected with Romans 10:5-12, which references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life, and a blessing, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead (Titus 2:14). God's law is also His instructions for how to act in accordance with His character, which is why the Bible frequently uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). Romans 10:13 is also connected with Romans 10:14-16, which speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is the way to obey the Gospel. In regard to calling on the name of the Lord, Jesus also asked why people called him Lord, but do not do what he said (Luke 6:46).

My salvation is not based on any work I do.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are not required to earn our salvation as the result of our works, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically the content of God's gift of saving us from not living in obedience to it.

Before I knew Christ I always did works of the flesh. Since He found me as its written there should now be good works. I do not have to do good works what is within me wants to. There is still with in me the desire to sin aka bad works yet that is not me but sin that is in me.

While we should obey God because we want to, God is ultimately sovereign, so we are still obligated to obey God even if we don't want to.

The law 613. When He set them free they complained moaned over and over yet God still met ever need they asked for. That is what HE wanted. He wanted to be their God their king. But something happened Israel said something and then 613 laws. Which helped them see what they really are. We love in a sinful fallen world. Theres a reason He said if you love me keep my words/commands. That does not mean you're saved or not saved. He said this to them years later after they walked with Him been with Him day and night.

So any good work, deed I do is its with in me. So after this life I will lay down ever crown that He never asked for. I do it because ANY GOOD in me I can ever do ..it was HIM that did it. This will be good. Good works don't save me I have already been found that can not Change

The Mosaic Covenant is often described as being a marriage between Israel and the God of Israel, so the purpose of the 613 commandments is to teach how to have an intimate relationship with Him. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him. The Hebrew word there uses for "know" is "yada", which refers to intimate knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:2, Adam knew Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain.

The way to love God is by acting in accordance with His character, so the way to love that God is good is by dong good works, the way to love that God is just is by doing justice, and so forth. Everything that God commanded in the Mosaic Law was specifically commanded to teach us how to love a different aspect of His character, which is why the Bible says repeatedly in both the OT and the NT that if we love God, then we will obey His commandments.

 

[Soyeong]

Sorry, the faith of Christ and faith in Christ are not the same. Words are different and have different meanings. The faith of Christ which is God’s righteous is given to them that believe. That is the only way a man can be justified before a holy God.

I just showed that they are the same. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying His instructions in all of our ways and He will make our way straight. This is the object of what Christ had his faith in and it is also the object of what our faith in Christ is in, so different words that are both referring to the same concept. In other words, the way to have faith in God is by believing that we ought to be in His image, so the way to believe that God is holy, righteous, good, just, merciful, faithful, and so forth so is by being doers of those traits. For instance, by doing good works, we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, and so forth for other aspects of His character. In 1 John 3:7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works is righteous even as he is righteous, so Christ was righteous because he had faith that he ought to be a doer of righteous works and that is the way that we are righteous by having either the faith of Christ or faith in Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

Then why didn't Jesus tell us the work of God was to keep His commandments? He was asked by people under the law. Do you know what He told them? Magically, He didn't say keep my commandments. He said the work of God was to...BELIEVE. You can read it for yourself in John 6.

God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, so that is synonymous, such as why there being many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments and many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus. In other words, Jesus is God's the embodiment of God's word, so us embodying God's word through following his example of obedience to God's law is the way to believe in who he is. God is trustworthy, therefore His law also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust God instead of trusting His instructions. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying His instructions in all of our ways and He will make our way straight. Another way to put it is that the way to have faith in God is by believing that we ought to be doers of His character traits, such as by doing good works we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other word we are believing in Him.

This is also why there are many verses that connect our faith/belief in God with our obedience to Him. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faith by setting God's law before him. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying him. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, disobedience is equated with unbelief. And so forth.

Until you understand this, you will erroneously push your salvation by works model that leads to death.

Salvation by works is the position that we are required to have first done a certain amount of works in order to earn our salvation as the result, which is not the position that I am supporting. Teaching that we need to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us does not lead to death because God does not lead us to death, but rather the Bible repeatedly says that that leads to life.

The gift of salvation is the life of Christ imparted to us. This is why eternal life is defined as knowing God and knowing Christ.

Christ lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also the way that we live when he is living in us and that is also eternal life because the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to know him and Christ through acting in accordance with His character (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), which is also why Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to inherit eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:28-30).

 

[Cameron143]

God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, so that is synonymous, such as why there being many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments and many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus. In other words, Jesus is God's the embodiment of God's word, so us embodying God's word through following his example of obedience to God's law is the way to believe in who he is. God is trustworthy, therefore His law also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust God instead of trusting His instructions. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying His instructions in all of our ways and He will make our way straight. Another way to put it is that the way to have faith in God is by believing that we ought to be doers of His character traits, such as by doing good works we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other word we are believing in Him.

This is also why there are many verses that connect our faith/belief in God with our obedience to Him. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faith by setting God's law before him. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying him. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, disobedience is equated with unbelief. And so forth.


Salvation by works is the position that we are required to have first done a certain amount of works in order to earn our salvation as the result, which is not the position that I am supporting. Teaching that we need to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us does not lead to death because God does not lead us to death, but rather the Bible repeatedly says that that leads to life.


Christ lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also the way that we live when he is living in us and that is also eternal life because the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to know him and Christ through acting in accordance with His character (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), which is also why Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to inherit eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:28-30).

God's commandments, in one regard, teach us the best way to live. They do not teach us how to believe; only Who to believe in. You misrepresent the truth of scripture. And you do so despite truth being shared with you. Jesus said...woe...to such people in His day. He would say no different to you today.

 

[Fillan]

Once we are saved, we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to participate in the work of the kingdom.

Having an attitude of gratitude, a thankful heart can be a powerful motivator to do work for the Kingdom with a pure heart. Because God has shown us mercy we are merciful to others. Forgive others because God through Christ has forgiven us.

Colossians 3: 7 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

God Bless You

 

[John146]

I just showed that they are the same.

The faith of Christ...whose faith?

Faith in Christ...whose faith?

You see, the two are different. One belongs to the Lord and the other to man. One can justify, the other cannot.

The faith of Jesus Christ is God's righteousness. It is given to those who believe the gospel. No works.

 

[John146]

The faith of Christ...whose faith?

Faith in Christ...whose faith?

You see, the two are different. One belongs to the Lord and the other to man. One can justify, the other cannot.

The faith of Jesus Christ is God's righteousness. It is given to those who believe the gospel. No works.

If you disagree, then you are relying on your own righteousness and not the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

The faith of Christ...whose faith?

Faith in Christ...whose faith?

You see, the two are different. One belongs to the Lord and the other to man. One can justify, the other cannot.

The faith of Jesus Christ is God's righteousness. It is given to those who believe the gospel. No works.

The faith of Christ is in the character of God and faith in Christ is in the character of God, so while the person who has the faith is the different, the object of our faith is the same, and it is the object of our faith that justifies. The way have faith in God’s righteousness to guide us in how to rightly live is by being a doer of righteous works in obedience to God’s law, which is why 1 John 3:4-7 says that every who is a doer of righteous works is righteous even as they are righteous.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God’s law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is the way to believe the Gospel, and righteousness is again given to those who do that. To say that God is righteous means that He is a doer of righteous works, so it is contradictory for someone to be righteous without being a doer of righteous works.

If you disagree, then you are relying on your own righteousness and not the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ.

God’s law was given in accordance with the righteousness of God in order to teach us how to testify about His righteousness, not in order to teach us how to establish our own. In the same way, our good works in obedience to God’s law are not about establishing our own goodness, but about testifying about God’s goodness, which is why they give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16). God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on His instructions and its is contradictory to think that we are relying on ourselves by relying on God’s instructions.

 

[Dino246]

If you disagree, then you are relying on your own righteousness and not the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ.

I have adequately explained my disagreement with the KJV rendering of this verse. Your fearmongering is both silly and anti-intellectual.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Torah has 613 laws and Jeremiah 31:33 says that the New Covenant involves the Torah being written on our hearts.

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He doesn’t say I’m going to write Moses law on your heart he specifically says I’m going to make a new covenant that is not according to the covenant I made at Sinai ( through Moses )

but this will be the covenant I will write my laws on thier hearts and cause them to walk in my judgements

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD you can’t seem to accept this part )


but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that covenant is found here

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s not found here which you seem to want to bring to life

“And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s only a foreshadow so they would understand Jesus preaching his word , shedding his blood of the new covenant word his words

This word

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this bloodshed for us by Jesus not Moses nor his words and judgements


“And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭14:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This word

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭

and this blood

“and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:24‬ ‭

It was always meant to lead all nations of people to Jesus and the gospel whether they will believe or not ….that is the question . Whether or not we’re guilty of breaking the law ….that’s been answered

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

instead now we have the gospel

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded.

By what law? of works? Nay:

but by the law of faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12, 23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[turbosixx]

There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something. For example, there is a difference between work that someone is required to have done first to earn a wage to pay for the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour and the work of driving it that is intrinsically required to have that experience. The opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour can also be given as a gift that requires someone to do the work to have that experience, but where that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to have that experience as a wage.

While there are many verse like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against works being required to earn our justification/righteousness/salvation/eternal life as a wage in the first sense, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are not required to have first obeyed it in order to earn our salvation as a wage, having the experience of living in obedience to it is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us how to have the experience doing those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us having the experience of not doing those works.

In other words, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of His law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life as a wage.

You are correct. We cannot earn eternal life as a wage. However, I would suggest a couple of things to consider.

First, Romans 4 is the middle of an argument Paul is making.
4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Consider, how does Abraham prove Paul's point from the previous (context) chapter/s?

Second, in John 17, Jesus is looking forward to the establishment of His church.
to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
After Jesus purchased the church by His sacrifice, consider what instructions Jesus gave the 12 when He sent them out to preach the gospel, what did the apostles preach and what did those who believed the gospel do so as to be added to the church.

 

[John146]

I have adequately explained my disagreement with the KJV rendering of this verse. Your fearmongering is both silly and anti-intellectual.

Fear mongering? I pray you’re relying on God’s righteousness and not your own righteousness. God’s righteousness is not silly but truth.

 

[Dino246]

Fear mongering? I pray you’re relying on God’s righteousness and not your own righteousness.

I do indeed rely on the righteousness of Jesus Christ, which is perfect. However, that righteousness is imputed to me by my faith in Him, not by His faith in His Father.

God’s righteousness is not silly but truth.

Don't be a silly twit and try to twist my words. I didn't say God's righteousness is silly, but your comments sometimes are.

 

[John146]

I do indeed rely on the righteousness of Jesus Christ, which is perfect. However, that righteousness is imputed to me by my faith in Him, not by His faith in His Father.


Don't be a silly twit and try to twist my words. I didn't say God's righteousness is silly, but your comments sometimes are.

When one places his faith/trust in Jesus, God's righteousness which is the faith of Jesus Christ, is given to that believer. The faith of Christ was on display throughout his life as he placed himself under the law and lived a complete obedient life to the Father, always doing the Father's will. That is God's righteousness that justifies the believer. No works.

 

[Soyeong]

God's commandments, in one regard, teach us the best way to live. They do not teach us how to believe; only Who to believe in. You misrepresent the truth of scripture. And you do so despite truth being shared with you. Jesus said...woe...to such people in His day. He would say no different to you today.

The Son is the exact image of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), so he is holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law does not just teach us about who to believe in, but also teaches us how to believe in him through following his example. For by testifying that Jesus is just by doing what is just in accordance with his example we are also expressing the belief that he is just. The Mosaic Law is truth and Jesus embodied that truth by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to obey it, so I am upholding the truth of Scripture in spite of others trying to lead me away from truth. If you can make the case that I am misrepresenting the truth of Scriptures, then by all means please do so, otherwise is an accusation without merit.

 

[John146]

When one places his faith/trust in Jesus, God's righteousness which is the faith of Jesus Christ, is given to that believer. The faith of Christ was on display throughout his life as he placed himself under the law and lived a complete obedient life to the Father, always doing the Father's will. That is God's righteousness that justifies the believer. No works.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 3:
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Before faith came? Whose faith? Didn't the OT saints have faith? It's talking about the faith of Jesus Christ.
The faith which should afterwards be revealed? Whose faith? the faith of Christ
But after that faith is come? Whose faith? the faith of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

You are correct. We cannot earn eternal life as a wage. However, I would suggest a couple of things to consider.

First, Romans 4 is the middle of an argument Paul is making.
4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Consider, how does Abraham prove Paul's point from the previous (context) chapter/s?

To say that someone has a character trait means that they are a doer of that trait and it would be contradictory for someone to have a trait if they were not a doer of it, for example to say that someone is courageous means that they are a doers of courageous works and it would be contradictory for someone to be courageous while not being a doer of courageous works, and the same is true of someone being righteous. The only way to attain a character trait is through faith that we ought to be a doer of that trait apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of works, so the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be a doer of courageous works, not earned as the result of having first done a certain amount of courageous works, and the same is true of being righteous. So we are declared righteous by faith apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of righteous works, but being righteous is not apart from being a doer of righteous works, which is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to do righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

Second, in John 17, Jesus is looking forward to the establishment of His church.
to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
After Jesus purchased the church by His sacrifice, consider what instructions Jesus gave the 12 when He sent them out to preach the gospel, what did the apostles preach and what did those who believed the gospel do so as to be added to the church.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and which he commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations (Matthew 28:16-20). So people are added to the church that Christ rebuilt by repenting and obeying the Mosaic Law in accordance with hearing and believing the Gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[turbosixx]

To say that someone has a character trait means that they are a doer of that trait and it would be contradictory for someone to have a trait if they were not a doer of it, for example to say that someone is courageous means that they are a doers of courageous works and it would be contradictory for someone to be courageous while not being a doer of courageous works, and the same is true of someone being righteous. The only way to attain a character trait is through faith that we ought to be a doer of that trait apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of works, so the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be a doer of courageous works, not earned as the result of having first done a certain amount of courageous works, and the same is true of being righteous. So we are declared righteous by faith apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of righteous works, but being righteous is not apart from being a doer of righteous works, which is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to do righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

I respectfully suggest based on the context you're still missing something. I'd rather not tell you out right because I'm afraid you won't fully consider the context. Sufficient context would be from 3:19 to 4:17.
Paul asks this question. How then was it counted to him?

So people are added to the church that Christ rebuilt by repenting and obeying the Mosaic Law in accordance with hearing and believing the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Can you point to an example of where this happened?

 

[Soyeong]

I respectfully suggest based on the context you're still missing something. I'd rather not tell you out right because I'm afraid you won't fully consider the context. Sufficient context would be from 3:19 to 4:17. Paul asks this question. How then was it counted to him?

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so it was counted to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed as being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4). In James 2:21-24, he quoted Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning it as a wage.

Can you point to an example of where this happened?

In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for the Mosaic Law, which is in accordance with believing the Gospel that Christ taught in Matthew 4:15-23 to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand and with believing in what Christ accomplished in Titus 2:14 in that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works.