WORD OF GOD

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Jul 11, 2025
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#81
I’m surprised no one picked this up: In the beginning of what?
Before I continue let me say that Christ is God and He is eternal. But eternity has no beginning (nor end). Eternity simply is.

God and Jesus both said “I Am”. So we know they are both eternal.

So John is referencing the beginning of what? ;)
'I Am' does not imply eternal. The 'I AM' statement implies Jesus existed before Abraham.
 
Sep 24, 2012
730
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#84
'I Am' does not imply eternal. The 'I AM' statement implies Jesus existed before Abraham.
I think Jesus was referencing the Father when he said I am. As in God saying "I AM THAT I AM" to Moses.

Exodus 3:14 King James Version
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

He was using comparative language with himself and God thus saying he was always in existence, since God has always been in existence.

John 8:58 King James Version
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 
Jul 11, 2025
12
1
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#85
I AM implies deity or eternal existence.
Never has and never will.

Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. That argument is not correct. Saying “I am” does not make a person God, in fact it was a common way for someone to identify themselves.

 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
1,814
511
113
#86
Genesis is NOT about the creation of the universe; it's about the beginning of PLANET EARTH!
Jesus had a beginning. The word 'firstborn' implies a beginning as well as being created.
In the beginning was the WORD

The WORD became flesh

So yes, the flesh portion of the eternal WORD had a beginning. But the WORD existed eternally before becoming flesh.
 
Sep 24, 2012
730
196
43
#88
Genesis is NOT about the creation of the universe; it's about the beginning of PLANET EARTH!
Jesus had a beginning. The word 'firstborn' implies a beginning as well as being created.
Colossians 1:15 King James Version
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

I think it's talking about his place with regards to created things. He is the firstborn, it's being used as a figure of speech, it's clearer if you read the verses underneath verse 15.
 

Ouch

Active member
May 24, 2025
497
39
28
#89
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. 15 (John bore witness to him, and cried, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.’”) 16 And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

What do you know about the Word of God??
1 Timothy 3:16

King James Version



16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 
Feb 22, 2021
3,513
1,901
113
Midwest
#90
Jul 11, 2025
12
1
1
#91
”For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

Being eternal is part of the fullness of the Godhead.
If Jesus was God that means he could not have been tempted to sin anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin as he, as God, couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making the cross and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE."

NIV
"For this reason he had to be made like them,[fn] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

He was the Christ - the Messiah. He was divine in that he came from the Father and had an uncommon measure of the Fathers Holy Spirit. That's how he overcame. Even so, at times, he needed to be empowered and encouraged by an angel to overcome. (Luke 22) IF Jesus was also God, why would he need any empowerment at all from an angel?

The nature of God was changed by Trinitarians. Nobody came out of the first century believing in a Trinity. There's no doubt it has pagan origins. Tertullian didn't come up with the doctrine. He just considered it's possibility. After all, every other religion around him had a trio of gods.

The ultimate Trinitarian cop-out is the illustrious Hypostatic union - AKA - Jesus was fully God and fully man..."Jesus was speaking from his humanity - not his divinity. So I asked, "Can you show me how where Jesus speaks from his 'god nature'? For some reason they can't.

Of course, Jesus was speaking from his human nature when he said the 'Father is greater'! When there's a clear contradiction, that's when they pull the two-nature card.

If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Why did he say in John 10:29,

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

And why did Jesus say in John 13:16

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."
I'll tell you what blows a hole in the fabricated Trinity and completely changed the nature of God. Hebrews 2:17

For this reason he had to be made like them,[fn] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

We know God the Father cannot be tempted and He cannot sin. If Jesus was God that means he could not have been tempted to sin anyway and being 'GOD' would never have to overcome it - ultimately making the cross and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning! NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH."

Since coming out of the Trinitarian closet about 15 years ago, I've been called an evil apostate, a heretic, not a Christian, spreading poisonous heresy, and condemned. In 2016 I was at the end of my rope with Trinitarian, Christian judgementalism AND STILL AM.

I label trinity as a diabolical, man-made, incomprehensible, incoherent false doctrine devised by demons. Thousands were tortured and murdered over it.

Back in 1974 I went to take the first in a series ministerial 'test' to become licensed. I backed out moments before because I found Trinity (like pre-trib) to be some of the most contradictory and divisive doctrines ever DEVELOPED.

I've studied and debated Trinity many times over the years and believe with all my heart it is a man-made concoction of heresy devised by demons. It is by far the top debacle of all 'Christian' doctrine and the most divisive and destructive nonsense of a doctrine ever. I'll try to be concise. But first...

It's beyond belief what the Christian Church has done in the name of God over this one doctrine alone. The Inquisition invented every conceivable method of pain and torture. I know that I myself would have been a victim of this torture and flames.

Piper and MacArthur are Calvinist. Calvin murdered more people over Trinity. Luther over Baptism. Calvin and Luther were BOTH murderers with about 100 deaths EACH - even children - attributed to their name.

Why would anyone want to pursue 'any' religion that has a history of ostracizing, oppressing, condemning, and murdering their own over the diabolical TRINITY? Bullinger knew that had he disclosed his rejection of trinity he would be ostracized, and his works would never be published. He confessed his rejection of Trinity on his death bed.

I hate TRINITY and hate what this doctrine has done to Christianity and humanity. It has left a horrible stain upon Christianity since its inception.

Trinity saves NOBODY and it condemns NOBODY!

The doctrine is endless. However, EVERY Trinitarian needs to know...

Trinitarians DENY the facts...

1. Jesus became God in AD325 at the council of Nicaea.

2. The holy spirit became God in AD381 at the council of Constantinople.

3. Then, because the Bishops of Rome could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions, they overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES...the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.\par

Trinitarian Christianity has caused more stress in my life than any one thing, so, I'm OUT! Just think...

The Trinity doctrine comes from a Church many Protestants believe is 'Babylon the Great' and - THE WHORE OF BABYLON AND THE LITTLE HORN OF DANIEL 7! Isn't that something!

Trinitarians push the nonsense that "Only God can forgive sins and only God can receive worship."

IOW, they claim that since only 'God can receive worship' and since Jesus 'received worship' that means -"Jesus is God!" We have record of Moses, and others in the bible, forgiving and worshipping others which alone proves that narrative false. \par

Most important...

"If Jesus was God that makes him a complete fraud and the cross a complete hoax!"

"The bible says he was tempted in every way and that he knew temptation."

"It also says God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin."

Can you see the contradiction?

If Jesus was God that means he could not have been tempted to sin anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin as he, as God, couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making the cross and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE."\par

He was the Christ - the Messiah. He was divine in that he came from the Father and had an uncommon measure of the Fathers Holy Spirit. That's how he overcame. Even so, at times, he needed to be empowered and encouraged by an angel to overcome. (Luke 22) IF Jesus was also God, why would he need any empowerment at all from an angel?\par

A few other important things...

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning! NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH."\par

Ahhhhhhhh - but everything revolves around the nonsense of a hypostatic union...AKA TWO NATURES - another concoction of the devils.

Six times the OT says "GOD CANNOT BE A MAN!"

Trinity teaches that Jesus is co-equal to God the Father in knowledge, power, and authority.

However,
Jesus said 'the Father is greater'.
He said he doesn't know the day and hour of his return.
He said he can do NOTHING on his own.


Over and over again, Jesus acknowledges his subordination to the Father. How do Trinitarians overcome these clear contradictions of co-equality?

The TWO NATURES - Trinity's most outstanding cop-out. That's precisely how over a hundred Bishops of Rome over the course of about 2-3 hundred years resolved these contradictions! There was no overcoming them any other way other than claiming 'Jesus has two natures'.\par

Over and over again Jesus showed his subordination to God the Father
That...
The Father was greater -
That...
He knew NOT the day or hour of his return -
That..
He was unable to do anything on his own -
How many times did Jesus call for unity among the brethren in John 17? What happened?

Whenever the power of the holy is present, a divine being angel is also often present to administer this POWER.
 
Jul 11, 2025
12
1
1
#92
”For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

Being eternal is part of the fullness of the Godhead.
Jesus was divine. In the same, because of him, we will be partakers of the divine nature. The word divine 'comes from' the word 'theos' which is the word God. Trinitarians perverted that too by devising the word GODHEAD which is the same word as divine. SO WHAT DOES DIVINE MEAN?

It simply means to have some of the attributes of God's divine nature. Divinity in no way implies someone or something has FULLY acquired all of God's attributes!
Please note:
deity (Latin numen divinum), not only used by the Greeks to denote the divine nature, power, providence, in the general,
without reference to any individual deity!
So do we also become equal to God?
"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Yes it is! It took about 300 years to develop the trinity doctrine.
1. Jesus became God in AD325 at the council of Nicaea.
2. The holy spirit became God in AD381 at the council of Constantinople.
3. Then, because the Bishops of Rome could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions, they overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES...the illustrious 'hypostatic union' - and that folks is the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.
 
Oct 19, 2024
6,214
1,230
113
USA-TX
#93
I think Jesus was referencing the Father when he said I am. As in God saying "I AM THAT I AM" to Moses.

Exodus 3:14 King James Version
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

He was using comparative language with himself and God thus saying he was always in existence, since God has always been in existence.

John 8:58 King James Version
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Jesus was both referencing God and revealing His Sonship.
 
Oct 19, 2024
6,214
1,230
113
USA-TX
#94
Never has and never will.

Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. That argument is not correct. Saying “I am” does not make a person God, in fact it was a common way for someone to identify themselves.

It was NOT common but was viewed as blasphemous!
 
Oct 19, 2024
6,214
1,230
113
USA-TX
#95
If Jesus was God that means he could not have been tempted to sin anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin as he, as God, couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making the cross and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE."

NIV
"For this reason he had to be made like them,[fn] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

He was the Christ - the Messiah. He was divine in that he came from the Father and had an uncommon measure of the Fathers Holy Spirit. That's how he overcame. Even so, at times, he needed to be empowered and encouraged by an angel to overcome. (Luke 22) IF Jesus was also God, why would he need any empowerment at all from an angel?

The nature of God was changed by Trinitarians. Nobody came out of the first century believing in a Trinity. There's no doubt it has pagan origins. Tertullian didn't come up with the doctrine. He just considered it's possibility. After all, every other religion around him had a trio of gods.

The ultimate Trinitarian cop-out is the illustrious Hypostatic union - AKA - Jesus was fully God and fully man..."Jesus was speaking from his humanity - not his divinity. So I asked, "Can you show me how where Jesus speaks from his 'god nature'? For some reason they can't.

Of course, Jesus was speaking from his human nature when he said the 'Father is greater'! When there's a clear contradiction, that's when they pull the two-nature card.

If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Why did he say in John 10:29,

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

And why did Jesus say in John 13:16

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."
I'll tell you what blows a hole in the fabricated Trinity and completely changed the nature of God. Hebrews 2:17

For this reason he had to be made like them,[fn] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

We know God the Father cannot be tempted and He cannot sin. If Jesus was God that means he could not have been tempted to sin anyway and being 'GOD' would never have to overcome it - ultimately making the cross and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning! NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH."

Since coming out of the Trinitarian closet about 15 years ago, I've been called an evil apostate, a heretic, not a Christian, spreading poisonous heresy, and condemned. In 2016 I was at the end of my rope with Trinitarian, Christian judgementalism AND STILL AM.

I label trinity as a diabolical, man-made, incomprehensible, incoherent false doctrine devised by demons. Thousands were tortured and murdered over it.

Back in 1974 I went to take the first in a series ministerial 'test' to become licensed. I backed out moments before because I found Trinity (like pre-trib) to be some of the most contradictory and divisive doctrines ever DEVELOPED.

I've studied and debated Trinity many times over the years and believe with all my heart it is a man-made concoction of heresy devised by demons. It is by far the top debacle of all 'Christian' doctrine and the most divisive and destructive nonsense of a doctrine ever. I'll try to be concise. But first...

It's beyond belief what the Christian Church has done in the name of God over this one doctrine alone. The Inquisition invented every conceivable method of pain and torture. I know that I myself would have been a victim of this torture and flames.

Piper and MacArthur are Calvinist. Calvin murdered more people over Trinity. Luther over Baptism. Calvin and Luther were BOTH murderers with about 100 deaths EACH - even children - attributed to their name.

Why would anyone want to pursue 'any' religion that has a history of ostracizing, oppressing, condemning, and murdering their own over the diabolical TRINITY? Bullinger knew that had he disclosed his rejection of trinity he would be ostracized, and his works would never be published. He confessed his rejection of Trinity on his death bed.

I hate TRINITY and hate what this doctrine has done to Christianity and humanity. It has left a horrible stain upon Christianity since its inception.

Trinity saves NOBODY and it condemns NOBODY!

The doctrine is endless. However, EVERY Trinitarian needs to know...

Trinitarians DENY the facts...

1. Jesus became God in AD325 at the council of Nicaea.

2. The holy spirit became God in AD381 at the council of Constantinople.

3. Then, because the Bishops of Rome could not resolve multiple "CO-EQUAL' contradictions, they overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES...the ultimate Trinitarian cop-out.\par

Trinitarian Christianity has caused more stress in my life than any one thing, so, I'm OUT! Just think...

The Trinity doctrine comes from a Church many Protestants believe is 'Babylon the Great' and - THE WHORE OF BABYLON AND THE LITTLE HORN OF DANIEL 7! Isn't that something!

Trinitarians push the nonsense that "Only God can forgive sins and only God can receive worship."

IOW, they claim that since only 'God can receive worship' and since Jesus 'received worship' that means -"Jesus is God!" We have record of Moses, and others in the bible, forgiving and worshipping others which alone proves that narrative false. \par

Most important...

"If Jesus was God that makes him a complete fraud and the cross a complete hoax!"

"The bible says he was tempted in every way and that he knew temptation."

"It also says God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin."

Can you see the contradiction?

If Jesus was God that means he could not have been tempted to sin anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin as he, as God, couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making the cross and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE."\par

He was the Christ - the Messiah. He was divine in that he came from the Father and had an uncommon measure of the Fathers Holy Spirit. That's how he overcame. Even so, at times, he needed to be empowered and encouraged by an angel to overcome. (Luke 22) IF Jesus was also God, why would he need any empowerment at all from an angel?\par

A few other important things...

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning! NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH."\par

Ahhhhhhhh - but everything revolves around the nonsense of a hypostatic union...AKA TWO NATURES - another concoction of the devils.

Six times the OT says "GOD CANNOT BE A MAN!"

Trinity teaches that Jesus is co-equal to God the Father in knowledge, power, and authority.

However,
Jesus said 'the Father is greater'.
He said he doesn't know the day and hour of his return.
He said he can do NOTHING on his own.


Over and over again, Jesus acknowledges his subordination to the Father. How do Trinitarians overcome these clear contradictions of co-equality?

The TWO NATURES - Trinity's most outstanding cop-out. That's precisely how over a hundred Bishops of Rome over the course of about 2-3 hundred years resolved these contradictions! There was no overcoming them any other way other than claiming 'Jesus has two natures'.\par

Over and over again Jesus showed his subordination to God the Father
That...
The Father was greater -
That...
He knew NOT the day or hour of his return -
That..
He was unable to do anything on his own -
How many times did Jesus call for unity among the brethren in John 17? What happened?

Whenever the power of the holy is present, a divine being angel is also often present to administer this POWER.
That Jesus was God the Son means that he could sin, and that he did not sin means he is qualified to be the Lamb that atones for the sins of humanity. That is the very reason he came as Messiah!
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,548
2,075
113
#97
Never has and never will.

Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. That argument is not correct. Saying “I am” does not make a person God, in fact it was a common way for someone to identify themselves.

So common the Jews wanted to stone Jesus after He said it. :unsure:

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him…”
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
1,672
563
113
Pennsylvania
#98
So common the Jews wanted to stone Jesus after He said it.

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him…”
---------------------------------
Jesus was taking them back to Mt. Sinai---I am that I am
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,769
9,051
113
#99
Never has and never will.

Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. That argument is not correct. Saying “I am” does not make a person God, in fact it was a common way for someone to identify themselves.

Jesus said He was God then proved it.
And to be clear, I mean from even BEFORE He was born (testifying of His miraculous incarnation), the very first time He appeared as a baby, then from the very first word He spoke the very last. Continuously non-stop.
He declared His Godhood by the rightful worship He received (even from His birth), from the many object lessons, parables, miracles and every interaction with men and Satan and fallen angels non-stop continuously without respite.

And then everyone else (who believed on Him) ALSO said that He was God and proved it.

This crazy talk that Jesus never said that He was God, or that the Bible does not declare the same is insanity.
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
1,814
511
113
John 9:

35 Yeshua heard that they had thrown him out. Finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”



36 The man answered, “Who is He, Sir? Tell me, so that I may believe in Him!”



37 Yeshua said, “You have seen Him—He is the One speaking with you.”



38 He said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.





Luke 24:

44 Yeshua said to them, “This is what I meant when I was still with you and told you that everything written about me in the Torah of Moshe, the Prophets and the Psalms had to be fulfilled.”



45 Then he opened their minds, so that they could understand the Tanakh,



46 telling them, “Here is what it says: the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day;





Yeshua\Jesus had no issue saying Who He was to people. Paul wrote it correctly as Our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ