Women cannot have authority in the congregation.

[Dino246]

I do think Paul's letters are scripture, but many scholars think some of them were written in his name (which is normal ancient practice) and they're later, because in Paul's own letters he talks about the offices as spiritual gifts, prophet, preacher etc not anything about elders because that was later on maybe later 1st century. Sure, probably Christianity could never have grown to a religion that it became without that structure so i'm not saying it was wrong i'm saying it just wasn't original to have anything beyond offices that were spiritual gifts, which can be men or woman. When people see Paul saying about women having authority its partly because he's only temporarily claiming authority himself to put things in some order, and is always wishing he didn't have it but is forced to - these offices today of pastor or priest are kind of 'pretend', make believe things that shouldn't be such a big deal and you can see why, eg all these courses today making people 'apostles' and telling them all the authority they have.. is asking for trouble. As to women speaking in church, its funny how Jesus spoke to women and they to him all the time but women can't speak in his church? at some point Jesus's own example has to guide on these things...

While I agree that the "office" of pastor is not biblical, that of elder is. I don't see Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus being of uncertain origin, and that's where he focuses on leaders in the church.

 

[Adstar]

the correct hermeneutic tools

The correct Hermeneutic Tool is the indwelling Holy Spirit when He decides to Inspire us to understand..

 

[Scribe]

The correct Hermeneutic Tool is the indwelling Holy Spirit when He decides to Inspire us to understand..

I suppose by hermeneutic tool you are referring to something like a Greek Lexicon. Since the original manuscripts of the New Testament were written in Greek that would be a very useful tool in determining the Spirit Inspired Intended Meaning in many cases.

So I agree that we pray and rely on the Spirit to give us understanding it is also true that the Spirit will lead us to such a tool to learn what the shades of meaning are in a Greek word or phrase so that we can DISCOVER by the leading of the Spirit what the original Greek speaking readers / audience would have understood when they first received the letter, as it related to their circumstances and their present world view / culture.

This is every bit a HOLY SPIRIT inspired journey of Discovery and JUST AS or MORE Spirit inspired than someone who say "The Spirit showed me" that it means those and so and all the while they are wrong because they are making fundamental mistakes in comprehending the original intent. Happens all the time. Especially in here in these CC Forums. I have never seen so many whackadoodle interpretations presented by those who claim they got their interpretation by the Spirit and they don't need commentaries, or Greek Lexicons, or any heremeneutics, (which is like saying I don't need to consider context, or original language, or grammar, who is being addressed, etc to interpret scriptures) 'cause they got the Spirit, but it is painfully obvious to everyone that reads their posts that they desperately need to read some commentaries, and in many cases it is obvious to everyone but themselves that the Spirit is not in agreement with what they are posting about their interpretation. How do you help someone like that? You don't just say, "You are not being lead by the Spirit" They will not be convinced. You have to show them where they made their mistake by violating one of the rules of interpretation of scripture (for those who are frightened by the word hermeneutics) You have to point out the mistake.

Someone teaching a lesson on how we should quit acting like mere men because we have the Holy Spirit inside us and we are Super men, taken from the text "Quit ye like men" can be shown their error by explaining how "quit ye like men" is an archaic way of saying "Act like men" or "strengthen your fortitude to resist in the battle" "endure hardness as a good soldier of Christ" and they have made a mistake in applying modern english word definition to "quit" which is understandable but also shows they are not putting in the necessary hermeneutic work to properly interpret what they are reading. All the while they are claiming THE SPIRIT gave them a great sermon and they stand up in front of people who all know they are making a mistake in how they understand "quit ye like men" and they are too nice to tell them. Yes I have seen this example in real life. The brother meant well but he made it hard for people to listen to him because of such an obvious mistake. The thought in everyone's mind is "..one commentary check while was preparing his message would have shown him his error. Did this guy even study? "

So when people say "All we need is the Spirit to show us what it means" as if that is something different than hermeneutics I feel compelled to write these long posts.

 

[garee]

I suppose by hermeneutic tool you are referring to something like a Greek Lexicon. Since the original manuscripts of the New Testament were written in Greek that would be a very useful tool in determining the Spirit Inspired Intended Meaning in many cases.

So I agree that we pray and rely on the Spirit to give us understanding it is also true that the Spirit will lead us to such a tool to learn what the shades of meaning are in a Greek word or phrase so that we can DISCOVER by the leading of the Spirit what the original Greek speaking readers / audience would have understood when they first received the letter, as it related to their circumstances and their present world view / culture.

This is every bit a HOLY SPIRIT inspired journey of Discovery and JUST AS or MORE Spirit inspired than someone who say "The Spirit showed me" that it means those and so and all the while they are wrong because they are making fundamental mistakes in comprehending the original intent. Happens all the time. Especially in here in these CC Forums. I have never seen so many whackadoodle interpretations presented by those who claim they got their interpretation by the Spirit and they don't need commentaries, or Greek Lexicons, or any heremeneutics, (which is like saying I don't need to consider context, or original language, or grammar, who is being addressed, etc to interpret scriptures) 'cause they got the Spirit, but it is painfully obvious to everyone that reads their posts that they desperately need to read some commentaries, and in many cases it is obvious to everyone but themselves that the Spirit is not in agreement with what they are posting about their interpretation. How do you help someone like that? You don't just say, "You are not being lead by the Spirit" They will not be convinced. You have to show them where they made their mistake by violating one of the rules of interpretation of scripture (for those who are frightened by the word hermeneutics) You have to point out the mistake.

Someone teaching a lesson on how we should quit acting like mere men because we have the Holy Spirit inside us and we are Super men, taken from the text "Quit ye like men" can be shown their error by explaining how "quit ye like men" is an archaic way of saying "Act like men" or "strengthen your fortitude to resist in the battle" "endure hardness as a good soldier of Christ" and they have made a mistake in applying modern english word definition to "quit" which is understandable but also shows they are not putting in the necessary hermeneutic work to properly interpret what they are reading. All the while they are claiming THE SPIRIT gave them a great sermon and they stand up in front of people who all know they are making a mistake in how they understand "quit ye like men" and they are too nice to tell them. Yes I have seen this example in real life. The brother meant well but he made it hard for people to listen to him because of such an obvious mistake. The thought in everyone's mind is "..one commentary check while was preparing his message would have shown him his error. Did this guy even study? "

So when people say "All we need is the Spirit to show us what it means" as if that is something different than hermeneutics I feel compelled to write these long posts.

"All we need is the Holy Spirit of Christ to show us what it means" It is the law of hermeneutics .Do not go above that which is written and call it a sign gift (self edifying) The sign of wondering.

The Holy Spirit does the interpreting. All the tools needed are found in the book of the law, the Bible.

Greek Lexicons can help get to foundation of a word. But the mysteries, we do the work as he works in us to search out that gospel understanding . . hidden in parables from natural man .

In order to study rightly dividing the parables seeking His approval he has given us that hermeneutic tools. So we can compare the spiritual unseen understanding to the same. Called faith to faith. This is so that in the end we can walk by faith the unseen eternal And after what the eyes see, the temporal .Without parables Christ the anointing teacher spoke not.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Lanolin]

not sure what Paul was getting at with the long hair thing, since Samson had long hair, wasnt allowed to cut it, and if he did, he became weak.

Maybe it was a roman/corinthian custom for men to have short hair so it could fit in their helmets. And helmets werent allowed to be worn in church? hence the long hair as a covering for women.

That passage is rather confusing to me as Paul writes about ordinances hes delivered but doesnt really explain what exactly these ordinances are. I guess you would know if you were a Corinthian.

 

[Blain]

not sure what Paul was getting at with the long hair thing, since Samson had long hair, wasnt allowed to cut it, and if he did, he became weak.

Maybe it was a roman/corinthian custom for men to have short hair so it could fit in their helmets. And helmets werent allowed to be worn in church? hence the long hair as a covering for women.

That passage is rather confusing to me as Paul writes about ordinances hes delivered but doesnt really explain what exactly these ordinances are. I guess you would know if you were a Corinthian.

Yeah now that I think about it didn't Jesus also have long hair? i mean we may not have an acutal picture of him but all throughout history he was shown with long hiar never short hair and if anyone has ever met him whether in a dream or something he was always described with long hair.

The issue with what pual says about women is that a few of the things he says seems to be a bit more like his own ipinion nowhere else do you see women being addressed in this way at least as far as I can tell, not to mmention Paul was originally from a sect that highly held these values but then again if it is the word of God and he always spoke from the holy spirit it creates a problem but then once again you have the issue of if that was really what he was saying because a lot of times with paul you have to really dig deep into the things he says it normally has a deepeer level of understanding in it so yeah umm take it with a grain of salt I suppose

 

[Angela53510]

I suggest the book "How to read the Bible for all its worth" by Gordon Fee. Great, easy to understand book on hermeneutics or how to interpret scriptures and he uses 1 Corinthians in many of his examples. Classic book.

This is an excellent introductory book. In seminary, it was recommended reading for every student in the classes I took. Actually taking a full course in hermeneutics was excellent! But I realize most people don't have the time, money or educational background, (you need a Bachelor's degree to enter seminary, unless you are an older student and highly motivated!) to do this.

So please read Gordon Fee's book. He is a Pentecostal, and world renowned Greek scholar, and he was recommended in a Southern Baptist seminary. That really tells you how good a book it is. No denominational barriers at all!

 

[Blain]

This is an excellent introductory book. In seminary, it was recommended reading for every student in the classes I took. Actually taking a full course in hermeneutics was excellent! But I realize most people don't have the time, money or educational background, (you need a Bachelor's degree to enter seminary, unless you are an older student and highly motivated!) to do this.

So please read Gordon Fee's book. He is a Pentecostal, and world renowned Greek scholar, and he was recommended in a Southern Baptist seminary. That really tells you how good a book it is. No denominational barriers at all!

How much is it and is it in e book form?

 

[Angela53510]

I suppose by hermeneutic tool you are referring to something like a Greek Lexicon. Since the original manuscripts of the New Testament were written in Greek that would be a very useful tool in determining the Spirit Inspired Intended Meaning in many cases.

So I agree that we pray and rely on the Spirit to give us understanding it is also true that the Spirit will lead us to such a tool to learn what the shades of meaning are in a Greek word or phrase so that we can DISCOVER by the leading of the Spirit what the original Greek speaking readers / audience would have understood when they first received the letter, as it related to their circumstances and their present world view / culture.

This is every bit a HOLY SPIRIT inspired journey of Discovery and JUST AS or MORE Spirit inspired than someone who say "The Spirit showed me" that it means those and so and all the while they are wrong because they are making fundamental mistakes in comprehending the original intent. Happens all the time. Especially in here in these CC Forums. I have never seen so many whackadoodle interpretations presented by those who claim they got their interpretation by the Spirit and they don't need commentaries, or Greek Lexicons, or any heremeneutics, (which is like saying I don't need to consider context, or original language, or grammar, who is being addressed, etc to interpret scriptures) 'cause they got the Spirit, but it is painfully obvious to everyone that reads their posts that they desperately need to read some commentaries, and in many cases it is obvious to everyone but themselves that the Spirit is not in agreement with what they are posting about their interpretation. How do you help someone like that? You don't just say, "You are not being lead by the Spirit" They will not be convinced. You have to show them where they made their mistake by violating one of the rules of interpretation of scripture (for those who are frightened by the word hermeneutics) You have to point out the mistake.

Someone teaching a lesson on how we should quit acting like mere men because we have the Holy Spirit inside us and we are Super men, taken from the text "Quit ye like men" can be shown their error by explaining how "quit ye like men" is an archaic way of saying "Act like men" or "strengthen your fortitude to resist in the battle" "endure hardness as a good soldier of Christ" and they have made a mistake in applying modern english word definition to "quit" which is understandable but also shows they are not putting in the necessary hermeneutic work to properly interpret what they are reading. All the while they are claiming THE SPIRIT gave them a great sermon and they stand up in front of people who all know they are making a mistake in how they understand "quit ye like men" and they are too nice to tell them. Yes I have seen this example in real life. The brother meant well but he made it hard for people to listen to him because of such an obvious mistake. The thought in everyone's mind is "..one commentary check while was preparing his message would have shown him his error. Did this guy even study? "

So when people say "All we need is the Spirit to show us what it means" as if that is something different than hermeneutics I feel compelled to write these long posts.

While I realize you are a long term member, you don't show up a lot. I agree with what you have said. When I was taking second year Greek with Bill Mounce, we had a disagreement about 1 Tim 2:12. He is world renowned Greek scholar, I was a taking second Year Master's degree Greek course. So I read everything he wrote about that section of the pastoral epistles, in his commentary. I think it was 42 pages long.

Everything he said pointed to the hapax legomena "authentein." When we talked about it in class, I brought this up. He is a complimentarian and said, "Because of my background, I have decided to accept the traditional interpretation for that word." I told him that I did not accept that translation, and why it didn't work hermeneutically, and he agreed there was no 100% answer with a word found no where else in the Bible.

But, had I not had a lot of training, in hermeneutics, plus Greek, I doubt he would have considered my side. And we never resolved the issue, because it is simply not possible.

Anyway, my point is there is a severely anti-intellectual bent in this forum. Many day, "If the KJV says it, I believe it." So, an archaic and obsolete translation is better than looking at the original languages. I used to get insulted constantly by some people. But others, have been very supportive of me, whether they agree with me or not.

I take breaks when people turn into mud slingers and put me down, for "studying to show myself a worker approved by God!" Then when I return, most of my friends are still here, and a lot of the ones who can barely read English let alone the KJV translation, seem to have moved on. And then, I find gems like you! And I do remember you, and these days it may well be me who has been MIA.

Anyway, got to get back to studying! Lots of reading with a PhD! I wish I was a lot younger!

 

[Angela53510]

How much is it and is it in e book form?

You would have to look it up on Amazon or another bookstore. I like hard cover for text books, and I think it was very low priced even for that. And I am Canadian, and prices on Amazon.ca are always more than Amazon.com!

It would be a great book for you to read, Blain! You would get so much out of it, now!

 

[Blain]

You would have to look it up on Amazon or another bookstore. I like hard cover for text books, and I think it was very low priced even for that. And I am Canadian, and prices on Amazon.ca are always more than Amazon.com!

It would be a great book for you to read, Blain! You would get so much out of it, now!

I will be sure to check it out on amazon I also prefer holding an actual book in my hands but until my eyes are fully healed I have to be able to enhance the text size.

But I am excited to try it I am always hungry for more understanding.

 

[Angela53510]

Not available on Kindle, but the hard copy is $15. Or do you need large print in a Kindle to be able to read it?

I think it won't give me the US Kindle price. It is $10 in Canada for the Kindle version, which should be around $6 in the US. Please look it up.,

 

[Blain]

Not available on Kindle, but the hard copy is $15. Or do you need large print in a Kindle to be able to read it?

I think it won't give me the US Kindle price. It is $10 in Canada for the Kindle version, which should be around $6 in the US. Please look it up.,

Sadly yes it has to be enhanced even on cc I have to have the text on a much bigger setting to be able to read it but I found the kindle verson for 12.99 I am putting it on my list until my money comes next month until then I am pretty much broke but I am very excited

 

[garee]

not sure what Paul was getting at with the long hair thing, since Samson had long hair, wasnt allowed to cut it, and if he did, he became weak.

Maybe it was a roman/corinthian custom for men to have short hair so it could fit in their helmets. And helmets werent allowed to be worn in church? hence the long hair as a covering for women.

That passage is rather confusing to me as Paul writes about ordinances hes delivered but doesnt really explain what exactly these ordinances are. I guess you would know if you were a Corinthian.

Hair long or short or long just as with nails beauty aids. According to a Nazarite ceremonial law . Women prophets as well as men could take the vows as member of a certain sect which became a Christian sect. .the Nazarenes. The first listed denomination in the new testament.

Numbers 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord:

A parable of Christ our husband pursuing his wife the church rescuing her from the father of lies the enemy of our souls as the bride of Christ (mankind)

Therefore having that beauty in respect to His bride. As a Christian woman again representing the whole church as the covering of man . She is to cover her representation of her glory or shave it off. The show the shame of a strange woman ,the divorced Israel as outward Jews pertaining to the corrupted flesh. Strangers to the promises of God no God in their hearts . . looking to the promise of a faithful husband .Christ, represented by man seen . he must not cover his head of hair .the uncovered represent again, Christ not seen.


Deuteronomy 21:10-13 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

In Revelation 9 we are given a parable of the fathers of lies coming in full false glory, false pride . Mocking the Nazarite vow according to the new testament ceremony that shows mankind men and woman's working together as one new creation . Two representative glories .Hair covered woman and unconverted for the men .It the witness of two, the church. It as a resprentittive glory points to the work of two the father and the Son working as one God.

Revelation 9:7-8 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

 

[Scribe]

While I realize you are a long term member, you don't show up a lot. I agree with what you have said. When I was taking second year Greek with Bill Mounce, we had a disagreement about 1 Tim 2:12. He is world renowned Greek scholar, I was a taking second Year Master's degree Greek course. So I read everything he wrote about that section of the pastoral epistles, in his commentary. I think it was 42 pages long.

Everything he said pointed to the hapax legomena "authentein." When we talked about it in class, I brought this up. He is a complimentarian and said, "Because of my background, I have decided to accept the traditional interpretation for that word." I told him that I did not accept that translation, and why it didn't work hermeneutically, and he agreed there was no 100% answer with a word found no where else in the Bible.

But, had I not had a lot of training, in hermeneutics, plus Greek, I doubt he would have considered my side. And we never resolved the issue, because it is simply not possible.

Anyway, my point is there is a severely anti-intellectual bent in this forum. Many day, "If the KJV says it, I believe it." So, an archaic and obsolete translation is better than looking at the original languages. I used to get insulted constantly by some people. But others, have been very supportive of me, whether they agree with me or not.

I take breaks when people turn into mud slingers and put me down, for "studying to show myself a worker approved by God!" Then when I return, most of my friends are still here, and a lot of the ones who can barely read English let alone the KJV translation, seem to have moved on. And then, I find gems like you! And I do remember you, and these days it may well be me who has been MIA.

Anyway, got to get back to studying! Lots of reading with a PhD! I wish I was a lot younger!

Hello Sister! Well Met! I will complete my 2nd year of Bible College in November. I am working on the requirements for ordained minister in my denomination. After I am ordained, I plan to continue taking seminary courses at my own pace and eventually earn a doctorate in biblical studies but I will only be doing that for my love of learning. I have no plans for ministry positions that require it.

At first I was not looking forward to taking 3 years of Greek but because of testimonies like yours I am starting to see the benefit. My reasoning was that after so many valiant efforts by Greek scholars to deliver a reliable English translation, that by this time it is obvious that I will not be able to improve my understanding by learning Greek. That I would simply discover that I agree with the current translations that we have such as the most recent functional equivalent the ESV. But your story about 1 Tim 2:12 is a the perfect example of why I will benefit from the grueling academic work of 3 years of Greek. This is the kind of information I am missing. I know that from comparing 1 Tim 2:11-12 with 1 Peter 3:3-6 It is strikingly clear that Peter was repeating a teaching most likely heard from Paul and that they taught this as common instructions to all the churches. Peter's version is more verbose but no one can read it without recognizing instantly that Paul was speaking about the same thing and that the authorial intent of Paul is made much more clear by comparing with 1 Peter 3:3 where it sounds as though Peter is quoting Paul and it is hardly likely that it is only a coincidence and that such strikingly similar words were used by Peter by accident. This I suppose would belong to the rule of Theological Context and is strong evidence to me, but to have that additional understanding, the syntactical, lexical analysis of the Greek words used in 1 Tim 2:12 would be helpful. Not that I might use such knowledge to READ INTO the text what is not said but rather to READ OUT of the text what Paul intended.

I am greatly encouraged that we have people like yourself who are pursuing excellence in the study of the scriptures in CC and I look forward to your contributions.

 

[hornetguy]

While I realize you are a long term member, you don't show up a lot. I agree with what you have said. When I was taking second year Greek with Bill Mounce, we had a disagreement about 1 Tim 2:12. He is world renowned Greek scholar, I was a taking second Year Master's degree Greek course. So I read everything he wrote about that section of the pastoral epistles, in his commentary. I think it was 42 pages long.

Everything he said pointed to the hapax legomena "authentein." When we talked about it in class, I brought this up. He is a complimentarian and said, "Because of my background, I have decided to accept the traditional interpretation for that word." I told him that I did not accept that translation, and why it didn't work hermeneutically, and he agreed there was no 100% answer with a word found no where else in the Bible.

But, had I not had a lot of training, in hermeneutics, plus Greek, I doubt he would have considered my side. And we never resolved the issue, because it is simply not possible.

Anyway, my point is there is a severely anti-intellectual bent in this forum. Many day, "If the KJV says it, I believe it." So, an archaic and obsolete translation is better than looking at the original languages. I used to get insulted constantly by some people. But others, have been very supportive of me, whether they agree with me or not.

I take breaks when people turn into mud slingers and put me down, for "studying to show myself a worker approved by God!" Then when I return, most of my friends are still here, and a lot of the ones who can barely read English let alone the KJV translation, seem to have moved on. And then, I find gems like you! And I do remember you, and these days it may well be me who has been MIA.

Anyway, got to get back to studying! Lots of reading with a PhD! I wish I was a lot younger!

It makes my heart happy to see you still here, Angela....

 

[Scribe]

While I realize you are a long term member, you don't show up a lot. I agree with what you have said. When I was taking second year Greek with Bill Mounce, we had a disagreement about 1 Tim 2:12. He is world renowned Greek scholar, I was a taking second Year Master's degree Greek course. So I read everything he wrote about that section of the pastoral epistles, in his commentary. I think it was 42 pages long.

Everything he said pointed to the hapax legomena "authentein." When we talked about it in class, I brought this up. He is a complimentarian and said, "Because of my background, I have decided to accept the traditional interpretation for that word." I told him that I did not accept that translation, and why it didn't work hermeneutically, and he agreed there was no 100% answer with a word found no where else in the Bible.

But, had I not had a lot of training, in hermeneutics, plus Greek, I doubt he would have considered my side. And we never resolved the issue, because it is simply not possible.

Anyway, my point is there is a severely anti-intellectual bent in this forum. Many day, "If the KJV says it, I believe it." So, an archaic and obsolete translation is better than looking at the original languages. I used to get insulted constantly by some people. But others, have been very supportive of me, whether they agree with me or not.

I take breaks when people turn into mud slingers and put me down, for "studying to show myself a worker approved by God!" Then when I return, most of my friends are still here, and a lot of the ones who can barely read English let alone the KJV translation, seem to have moved on. And then, I find gems like you! And I do remember you, and these days it may well be me who has been MIA.

Anyway, got to get back to studying! Lots of reading with a PhD! I wish I was a lot younger!

I just did some research on hapax legomena "authentein." Very useful. Thank you.

 

[Adstar]

I suppose by hermeneutic tool you are referring to something like a Greek Lexicon. Since the original manuscripts of the New Testament were written in Greek that would be a very useful tool in determining the Spirit Inspired Intended Meaning in many cases.

So I agree that we pray and rely on the Spirit to give us understanding it is also true that the Spirit will lead us to such a tool to learn what the shades of meaning are in a Greek word or phrase so that we can DISCOVER by the leading of the Spirit what the original Greek speaking readers / audience would have understood when they first received the letter, as it related to their circumstances and their present world view / culture.

This is every bit a HOLY SPIRIT inspired journey of Discovery and JUST AS or MORE Spirit inspired than someone who say "The Spirit showed me" that it means those and so and all the while they are wrong because they are making fundamental mistakes in comprehending the original intent. Happens all the time. Especially in here in these CC Forums. I have never seen so many whackadoodle interpretations presented by those who claim they got their interpretation by the Spirit and they don't need commentaries, or Greek Lexicons, or any heremeneutics, (which is like saying I don't need to consider context, or original language, or grammar, who is being addressed, etc to interpret scriptures) 'cause they got the Spirit, but it is painfully obvious to everyone that reads their posts that they desperately need to read some commentaries, and in many cases it is obvious to everyone but themselves that the Spirit is not in agreement with what they are posting about their interpretation. How do you help someone like that? You don't just say, "You are not being lead by the Spirit" They will not be convinced. You have to show them where they made their mistake by violating one of the rules of interpretation of scripture (for those who are frightened by the word hermeneutics) You have to point out the mistake.

Someone teaching a lesson on how we should quit acting like mere men because we have the Holy Spirit inside us and we are Super men, taken from the text "Quit ye like men" can be shown their error by explaining how "quit ye like men" is an archaic way of saying "Act like men" or "strengthen your fortitude to resist in the battle" "endure hardness as a good soldier of Christ" and they have made a mistake in applying modern english word definition to "quit" which is understandable but also shows they are not putting in the necessary hermeneutic work to properly interpret what they are reading. All the while they are claiming THE SPIRIT gave them a great sermon and they stand up in front of people who all know they are making a mistake in how they understand "quit ye like men" and they are too nice to tell them. Yes I have seen this example in real life. The brother meant well but he made it hard for people to listen to him because of such an obvious mistake. The thought in everyone's mind is "..one commentary check while was preparing his message would have shown him his error. Did this guy even study? "

So when people say "All we need is the Spirit to show us what it means" as if that is something different than hermeneutics I feel compelled to write these long posts.

Long posts or not.. There is No subsitute to having security in understanding scripture properly.. You can go to theological colledges and learn this theory or that theory and you can end up being totally wrong.. The Holy Spirit is the true Key to understanding the Word of God.. People trusting in this structure or tradition or that structure or tradition is putting their trust in men..

 

[Mem]

Entering "what seems right" in the bible search retrieves fifteen verses wherein (6) are examples of which, going by that alone, results in lawsuits, foolishness, death (2), or admonishment (2). Who hermenuet'd it?!

 

[tantalon]

Paul speaks of long hair to the length of which becomes more the length that a woman would grow. It is the length more appropriate towards being feminine. Paul refers to a length that "crosses the line" towards that feminine side. As he says, "does not even nature itself teach you that if a man have long hair it is a shame unto him"? So the sense of the admonition is the "blending of the distinction" of male and female attributes, not any "sin" within the length of hair itself.