Wolves

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help me find the harmony between these two verses

John 3:20 - for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (John 3:17)
 
Lanolin said:
Why would a shepherd be disabled and 'forced' to hire someone. Isnt the point of being a shepherd that they actively look after the sheep themselves, not hire someone else to do it!

I agree that hirelings only do the job for the wages, they dont 'own' the sheep, or in other situations, the company, they have no say in anything and little authority.
Jesus never paid his disciples to do ministry. And he gave them his authority, and said to them feed my sheep, feed my lambs. Was he disabled and forced to hire anybody? We ll he did get crucified, but before that the disciples were not even paid, and it was only Judas who did it for the money because he was the treasurer and stole from the bag. The wolves in this case would be the Pharisees?
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Humans tended flocks. Humans can get sick, crippled, or be killed by man or beast. Why not consider the shepherd to call in sick? There was a clear understanding that whenever the owner of the sheep, maybe just needing some sleep, could not protect the sheep 24/7 all his life. So it was, as I already posted yesterday or so, that he could place the flock into the care of a "porter", a hireling, who had a fenced in area for a price. Of course, no porter would have the same heart for the sheep, not willing to go beyond the contracted price to house the flock, offering his own life for the animals.

So it is that Jesus was offering the same protection for the owner of the flock, willing to die instead of the men assigned to care for the spiritual flock (as usual for elders of Israel). While the apostles slept one fateful night, Jesus shed tears of blood in their stead.
 
Lanolin said:
Why would a shepherd be disabled and 'forced' to hire someone. Isnt the point of being a shepherd that they actively look after the sheep themselves, not hire someone else to do it!

I agree that hirelings only do the job for the wages, they dont 'own' the sheep, or in other situations, the company, they have no say in anything and little authority.
Jesus never paid his disciples to do ministry. And he gave them his authority, and said to them feed my sheep, feed my lambs. Was he disabled and forced to hire anybody? We ll he did get crucified, but before that the disciples were not even paid, and it was only Judas who did it for the money because he was the treasurer and stole from the bag. The wolves in this case would be the Pharisees?
Click to expand...

The price Jesus paid could not be related to the value of coins of gold. Not only was Jesus disabled, but died as equal to a robber. What more do you want from Him? One more gold piece?

Those apostles were obviously fed enough food to minister many years. It was allowed for them to live organically by the works of heir own hands. As already posted, in the same manner that priests and Levites of old had no limits, and as such, modern ministers of the gospel have no limits imposed. So do you consider his blessing is that he might publish a popular book and raise in his own name millions of dollars? What is wrong with that? Do you think he sins while Abraham prospered in the currency of his own time?
 
What is the man of God who produces a best seller to do? Call his publisher to limit copies published so he might not become too enriched? Did God limit the herds and flocks of ancient patriarchs to keep their wealth at bay? Well, in fact, God showed Jacob how to prosper from Laban's wealth by simply obeying the Lord in Gen 30. But now come the wolves complaining against riches by innovation from God? What baffoons! What wolves among the sheep! The complainers are the wolves in sheep's clothing!
 
Hmm confusing now people seem to be going off different tangents.
Can they just be herded back to ONE shepherd.

Ezekiel 34:23-31
And John 10:16
 
Lanolin said:
Why would a shepherd be disabled and 'forced' to hire someone. Isnt the point of being a shepherd that they actively look after the sheep themselves, not hire someone else to do it!

I agree that hirelings only do the job for the wages, they dont 'own' the sheep, or in other situations, the company, they have no say in anything and little authority.
Jesus never paid his disciples to do ministry. And he gave them his authority, and said to them feed my sheep, feed my lambs. Was he disabled and forced to hire anybody? We ll he did get crucified, but before that the disciples were not even paid, and it was only Judas who did it for the money because he was the treasurer and stole from the bag. The wolves in this case would be the Pharisees?
Click to expand...

Lanolin said:
Why would a shepherd be disabled and 'forced' to hire someone. Isnt the point of being a shepherd that they actively look after the sheep themselves, not hire someone else to do it!

I agree that hirelings only do the job for the wages, they dont 'own' the sheep, or in other situations, the company, they have no say in anything and little authority.
Jesus never paid his disciples to do ministry. And he gave them his authority, and said to them feed my sheep, feed my lambs. Was he disabled and forced to hire anybody? We ll he did get crucified, but before that the disciples were not even paid, and it was only Judas who did it for the money because he was the treasurer and stole from the bag. The wolves in this case would be the Pharisees?
Click to expand...
?

The hireling is in some cases the shepherd, pastor. Or in other cases, a board of directors hire.
 
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Lanolin, there would be no problem with false prophets, hirelings, or wolves in the ministry if the churches followed the pattern set by Paul.

The good Shepherd would be in control by the 5 fold ministry seeking the will of God through the prophetic as to who was anointed for what office.
 
Deade said:
It all boils down to discernment of spirits. The Holy Spirit always speaks in an encouraging manner. It does not try to make you feel dirty or small. Satan and his demons talks to us in an accusatory and demeaning way. Making us feel guilty and ashamed.

Once you discern how these spirits treat people you begin to see their goals, also called their fruits. You see the fruits of these wolves and you know which spirits guide them.

How devastating are they? They can literally take over the church and even whole denominations. :eek:
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I actually feel that statement quite a bit. Edification instead of condemnation. VERY useful. This is something I've noticed listening to a lot of different radio minstries and I'm pretty divided on who is who. Some I just feel grimy listening to and others it's like clear water...solid doctrine and not just empowerment or personal experiences.


How do you think the Lord deals with spiritual pride though?
 
theanointedwinner said:
Correct, God is holy, God is rich

so wealth is not sin
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What usually makes wealth a part of sin is the wealthy worshipping their wealth, drawing more and more distant from the need of faith, and the lives of the poor. Secondarily comes the poorer worshiping the wealth and power of the wealthier. Many souls become infected with covetousness, compromising whatever morals they were raised with, serving the god of mammon by word and deed day after day, hoping for a good retirement life.

None of that condemns wealth, else Job and Abrham (and some righteous kings of Israel and allies) be condemned.
 
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Word_Swordsman said:
What usually makes wealth a part of sin is the wealthy worshipping their wealth, drawing more and more distant from the need of faith, and the lives of the poor. Secondarily comes the poorer worshiping the wealth and power of the wealthier. Many souls become infected with covetousness, compromising whatever morals they were raised with, serving the god of mammon by word and deed day after day, hoping for a good retirement life.

None of that condemns wealth, else Job and Abrham (and some righteous kings of Israel and allies) be condemned.
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I think the trap with material wealth, and Job nearly fell into it too, is people that have it are prone to pride. The pride of life. Poor people are not usually proud, but they can be coveting what their neighbour has, although I have noticed that some peoole have so much and its never enough. And wealthy people can treat those less well off really badly. Not all people are snobs tho.
 
stonesoffire said:
Lanolin, there would be no problem with false prophets, hirelings, or wolves in the ministry if the churches followed the pattern set by Paul.

The good Shepherd would be in control by the 5 fold ministry seeking the will of God through the prophetic as to who was anointed for what office.
Click to expand...
I have noticed that ministry in some churches is not five fold its tends to be one sided or two fold. Have you noticed that? There might be a pastor and a teacher, but the other ministries are totally absent. Sometimes the pastor is pastor in name only, they dont really do the things a pastor ought to be doing. Maybe they will preside at weddings and funerals, and give sermons, but they dont visit the sick or pray.
 
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KILLER TIP:

anytime you feel lonely, and you feel the void, lift up your head and howl like a wolf as if howling at the moon

the flesh or the animal part of the lonely aspect will "feel better"
 
Lanolin said:
I think the trap with material wealth, and Job nearly fell into it too, is people that have it are prone to pride.
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Since God called Job a righteous man, you should not be contradicting God. He shared his wealth generously.

Indeed God told Israel that when judgment came upon that nation, the three outstanding righteous men would be Noah, Daniel, and Job.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Since God called Job a righteous man, you should not be contradicting God. He shared his wealth generously.

Indeed God told Israel that when judgment came upon that nation, the three outstanding righteous men would be Noah, Daniel, and Job.
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I wasnt, I was just saying he was tested, he passed the test though. Not everyone who is rich was rightoeus like Job though thats the point of his story. And its made clear Job was the wealthiest man at the time, but his wealth didnt make him righteous.
 
Lanolin said:
How can you tell if there wolves in the church you attend. What are their tell tale signs. Do they operate in packs or are they more lone wolves. How do they enter? And just how much devastation can they cause to a flock?
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according to Jesus your actions show if you are true or false. but according to many Christians today its what doctrines you believe which is very confusing being as so many churches have so many different doctrines.
i tend to go with what Jesus said, its tried and tested being as there is no grey area, you either do good works or you dont. theology and doctrines however are nothing but grey areas and can be argues till the cows come home. some have been debated for almost two thousand years.
Jim Jones is a good example, was an expert on scripture, taught things like blacks and whites should be able to worship together, all sounds good but these were just words he said in front of people, his actions show that he was a drug addict, adulterer, homosexual, and in the end a mass murderer.
 
theanointedwinner said:
help me find the harmony between these two verses

John 3:20 - for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (John 3:17)
Click to expand...

In John 3:20, the fear is due to the unsaved's guilt and their fear of Judgment, knowing down deep they are guilty.
In John 3:17, Jesus came to take away sin and guilt that they may not fear Judgment.
 
jaybird88 said:
according to Jesus your actions show if you are true or false. but according to many Christians today its what doctrines you believe which is very confusing being as so many churches have so many different doctrines.
i tend to go with what Jesus said, its tried and tested being as there is no grey area, you either do good works or you dont. theology and doctrines however are nothing but grey areas and can be argues till the cows come home. some have been debated for almost two thousand years.
Jim Jones is a good example, was an expert on scripture, taught things like blacks and whites should be able to worship together, all sounds good but these were just words he said in front of people, his actions show that he was a drug addict, adulterer, homosexual, and in the end a mass murderer.
Click to expand...
Really? Dont you mean a bad example...? But then what strange doctrines was he propgating and where did he get his ideas from..?

If you heed what Jesus said you cant go wrong. Many people may be experts on scripture but then really no idea who Jesus is. Strange isnt it, the one person who is the name above all names and yet they ignore Him and exalt themselves
 
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