Why Universalism is a lie.

[EleventhHour]

Whatever I say, eh? Your repeated deceitfulness toward me is well noted.

Okay

 

[Magenta]

Okay

It speaks volumes of your character.

 

[EleventhHour]

It speaks volumes of your character.

I am not wanting to discuss this further.
All I am saying is you are free to believe what you think it is .... I have no problem with that... and you challenged my experience and knowledge, that is fine too.

There is no point going on since I am not going to get into any further details.
Carry on... I am not in any way taking anything you stated personally.
Have a good day!

 

[posthuman]

Dearest post, please excuse me, but how would universalism make your life meaningless?

That looks like a logical fallacy Non sequitur

Oh, I was quoting Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 9:9
Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.

That said, however, if all are saved then literally nothing I do or thi k has any bearing on eternity - rendering my whole life, all physical, emotional, mental and spiritual aspects of it, and all possible choices I could make equivalent to each other: whether I do evil or good, salvation. Whether I believe the truth or a lie, salvation. Whether I love or I spite, salvation. All is of no effect, all is equally unimportant. That's universalism.

Solomon showed how our lives are ultimately meaningless because no matter what we do, we die and are forgotten. The only thing that overcomes this vanity is salvation - receiving life that goes beyond the grave through the mercy of God. But if everyone is saved the life is just as inconsequential and vain as if no one is saved, all die and there is nothing more. Universalism may as well be the harshest, most nihilistic atheism for all practical purposes. It renders all actions and thoughts and faith void.

 

[Magenta]

Oh, I was quoting Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 9:9
Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.

That said, however, if all are saved then literally nothing I do or thi k has any bearing on eternity - rendering my whole life, all physical, emotional, mental and spiritual aspects of it, and all possible choices I could make equivalent to each other: whether I do evil or good, salvation. Whether I believe the truth or a lie, salvation. Whether I love or I spite, salvation. All is of no effect, all is equally unimportant. That's universalism.

Solomon showed how our lives are ultimately meaningless because no matter what we do, we die and are forgotten. The only thing that overcomes this vanity is salvation - receiving life that goes beyond the grave through the mercy of God. But if everyone is saved the life is just as inconsequential and vain as if no one is saved, all die and there is nothing more. Universalism may as well be the harshest, most nihilistic atheism for all practical purposes. It renders all actions and thoughts and faith void.

I am not a universalist, but I cannot agree with your closing statements. I understand and agree with all else, but saying universalism makes null and void the lives we live, we who are saved by grace through faith? No, that I cannot accept, for we know the destroying power of living in sin, and must surely benefit from our knowledge of, and growth in Christ, regardless of the question of who else is saved.

 

[posthuman]

I am not a universalist, but I cannot agree with your closing statements. I understand and agree with all else, but saying universalism makes null and void the lives we live, we who are saved by grace through faith? No, that I cannot accept, for we know the destroying power of living in sin, and must surely benefit from our knowledge of, and growth in Christ, regardless of the question of who else is saved.

If the one who loves sin and never turns from it is redeemed just as well as the one who repents, what use is repentance? What meaning does belief have if unbelief gets you just as saved?

 

[Magenta]

If the one who loves sin and never turns from it is redeemed just as well as the one who repents, what use is repentance? What meaning does belief have if unbelief gets you just as saved?

What use is repentance in your life? The use of it (benefits) in your life is (are) immeasurable, since you are by virtue of the fact of turning away from sin, saved from the degradation and destructive ravages of a sinful life style. Saying it is all pointless if all are saved in the end just seems to overlook and worse, eliminate, the fact that we directly and irrevocably benefit from receiving and growing in God's grace.

On the other hand, I do to some extent understand people coming at it from the angle you presented, but it looks quite self-defeatist to me.

 

[RevelationMan]

If the one who loves sin and never turns from it is redeemed just as well as the one who repents, what use is repentance? What meaning does belief have if unbelief gets you just as saved?

the fact that there are consequences for our sin and evil that we do should not be confused with being saved from the judgement of God. The consequences are bad enough there is no reason to have man go through the judgement of God as well. Man receives mercy which triumphs over judgement and human robots receive God's wrath.

 

[Deade]

I am not a universalist, but I cannot agree with your closing statements. I understand and agree with all else, but saying universalism makes null and void the lives we live, we who are saved by grace through faith? No, that I cannot accept, for we know the destroying power of living in sin, and must surely benefit from our knowledge of, and growth in Christ, regardless of the question of who else is saved.

Yes Magenta, you are right. How we live this life will matter whether we are saved or not. Not everyone will have the same chance at salvation in the judgment period (see Matt. 11:22). It seems if we have seen much, much will be required (see Luke 12:48).

Universalist teach that every human and even Satan and his fallen third will be saved. This is not true. God is in the process of purging evil from His universe. Some humans will set their hearts to love and do evil. They become fixed in their evil ways. The same holds true for the fallen angels. They will be destroyed when God is done with them. The best thing for evil is destruction. Far more than are called, in this dispensation, will have a chance at salvation during the judgment period after the millennial rule.

 

[Magenta]

Yes Magenta, you are right. How we live this life will matter whether we are saved or not. Not everyone will have the same chance at salvation in the judgment period (see Matt. 11:22). It seems if we have seen much, much will be required (see Luke 12:48).

Universalist teach that every human and even Satan and his fallen third will be saved. This is not true. God is in the process of purging evil from His universe. Some humans will set their hearts to love and do evil. They become fixed in their evil ways. The same holds true for the fallen angels. They will be destroyed when God is done with them. The best thing for evil is destruction. Far more than are called, in this dispensation, will have a chance at salvation during the judgment period after the millennial rule.

It is perplexing why anyone would believe Satan and his fallen third would or could be saved, since that directly contradicts what is explicitly stated in Scripture. And I agree: evil will be destroyed. Praise the Lord, for He is good, His love endures forever!

 

[posthuman]

the fact that there are consequences for our sin and evil that we do should not be confused with being saved from the judgement of God. The consequences are bad enough there is no reason to have man go through the judgement of God as well. Man receives mercy which triumphs over judgement and human robots receive God's wrath.

What are my brief years compared to eternity?

No eternal consequences may as well be no consequences at all - for exactly the same argument Paul uses to say that suffering in this life is 'nothing' compared to the riches of the glory to be revealed.

 

[RevelationMan]

It is perplexing why anyone would believe Satan and his fallen third would or could be saved, since that directly contradicts what is explicitly stated in Scripture. And I agree: evil will be destroyed. Praise the Lord, for He is good, His love endures forever!

Scripture says that Satan is cast into the lake of fire along with the Beast and the False Prophet but it doesn't say that his angels will be cast into the lake of fire. It just says that the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. Satan was created for destruction as well as the Beast and the False Prophet which is why they will be cast into the lake of fire. Satan's third may be created for destruction as well but not necessarily so they may be saved.

 

[Magenta]

Scripture says that Satan is cast into the lake of fire along with the Beast and the False Prophet but it doesn't say that his angels will be cast into the lake of fire. It just says that the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. Satan was created for destruction as well as the Beast and the False Prophet which is why they will be cast into the lake of fire. Satan's third may be created for destruction as well but not necessarily so they may be saved.

Are you saying the lake of fire was prepared for Satan and the angels who follow him but that the angels who follow him may yet be saved?

 

[RevelationMan]

Are you saying the lake of fire was prepared for Satan and the angels who follow him but that the angels who follow him may yet be saved?

Yes, because as they go through judgement they may realize they are following the wrong leader. But at the outset of judgement it is unclear to many who is the wrong leader so they follow him for a while but may abandon him prior to final judgement in the lake of fire.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, because as they go through judgement they may realize that they are following the wrong leader. But at the outset of judgement it is unclear to many who is the wrong leader so they follow him for a while but may abandon him prior to final judgement in the lake of fire.

Thank you for clarifying Does not Luke 12:48 contradict that idea though?

But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 

[RevelationMan]

Thank you for clarifying Does not Luke 12:48 contradict that idea though?

But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

actually I think the passage in Luke 12:48 supports this idea very nicely . To the angels who do not know any better will be beaten with few blows but the ones who do know better (if there are any) will be beaten with many blows and likely cast into the lake of fire.

 

[MattforJesus]

This world has many problems, and many people suffer on this planet for different reasons.

If all people are eventually saved what is the purpose of people being on earth with all the problems, and suffering.

God could of created all people to be with Him and cut out the earth, and the result would be the same, for it would not matter if you chose the truth or not, for the blood of Jesus covers all sins no matter how they act.

God's kingdom is love so we have to choose to follow the truth, and those that do not choose cannot be with God.

Mal 3:13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?
Mal 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
Mal 3:15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Magenta]

actually I think the passage in Luke 12:48 supports this idea very nicely . To the angels who do not know any better will be beaten with few blows but the ones who do know better (if there are any) will be beaten with many blows and likely cast into the lake of fire.

Yet the angels know very well that God exists

 

[RevelationMan]

Yet the angels know very well that God exists

Yes, but not all of them know WHICH being is God or perhaps Michael. When they hear spoken words they don't all know whether they come from Michael or from Satan or from God. But as they get deeper and deeper into judgement they may choose to abandon some of the commands they hear because it becomes much clearer which being is responsible for those words.

 

[EleventhHour]

Seems like if the OP was no longer a member the status would be listed as 'Guest". Regardless, the topic of the OP is still relevant.

I only mentioned it in case someone or
"allsaved" was expecting a response.
Try to be helpful and people give you a hard time.
Gee whiz!!