Why Must Saul Suffer?

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Below, we will read that Saul, later named Paul, must suffer, though we are not given a specific reason for why.

Would his suffering be, because of his persecutions that included the murder of Stephen? Or, will his suffering be a result of simply establishing the Christian Faith? Or, are there other ideas?

Remember, we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, so in this forum, we encourage one another; we build each other up.

On with the Scripture!
Acts 9:15-16 NLT - "But the Lord said, "Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel. 16 And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name's sake."

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hi @2ndTimothyGroup, Paul suffered/was persecuted severely on numerous occasions for being a Christian .. cf 2 Timothy 3:12, and also for being a leader in the 1st Century church (and that by both the Jews and the Gentiles). As just one of the descriptions of his various sufferings tells us,

2 Corinthains 11
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I.
23 Are they servants of Christ?—I speak as if insane—I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death.
24 Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep.
26 I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;
27 I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.
28 Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches.
29 Who is weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern?
30 If I have to boast, I will boast of what pertains to my weakness.
31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
32 In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me,
33 and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands.
​

For the horrible sins that he committed against the church and against Christians (individually) as "Saul", neither the Jews nor the Gentiles said or did anything to him, as he was doing the very things that they wanted him to do, the very things that they often tasked him to do, in point of fact.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

 

[MsMediator]

Many of the early missionaries and apostles suffered, not just Paul. And, most of them did not persecute other Christians. I think it is a case of God using suffering to help bring forth conversions from others. For example, a lot of Christians suffered under Roman rule but this eventually brought forth more conversions throughout Rome and Europe and expansion of Christendom. I don't think God would punish Paul for past sins after He forgave him.

 

[Mem]

Hadn't Saul in good standing within both the Jewish and Gentile community, a Pharisee among Pharisees and I believe an "upstanding' citizen of Rome, which he counted all things as damage compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus His Lord. He states, "For this I have suffered (put up with) the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ (Phil 3:8)."

 

[Cameron143]

If it is true that we reap what we have sown, some would say he got off easy. But Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered. How much more for us? And Paul also mentioned in Colossians 1:24 that he rejoiced in the sufferings in the flesh on their behalf because he was filling up what was lacking in Christ's afflictions for the church.

 

[Gideon300]

Below, we will read that Saul, later named Paul, must suffer, though we are not given a specific reason for why.

Would his suffering be, because of his persecutions that included the murder of Stephen? Or, will his suffering be a result of simply establishing the Christian Faith? Or, are there other ideas?

Remember, we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, so in this forum, we encourage one another; we build each other up.

On with the Scripture!
Acts 9:15-16 NLT - "But the Lord said, "Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel. 16 And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name's sake."

All Christians will suffer persecution, if they mean business with God. Tribulation is normal while we are in the world. It is the entry point to the Kingdom of God.

At least in part, tribulation is self inflicted. Our ways are not God's ways, but they seem fine to us. God has to show us that we kid ourselves. As we fail, sooner or later (the sooner the better) we will quit trying to do what we imagine God wants us to do and start entrusting our lives to Him. That's what it means to have Jesus as Lord. He is in control, leading and guiding.

There is a vicious and intelligent enemy out there also. He will attack given the slightest opportunity. But God can turn every trial and tribulation around for our good. Satan cannot win! He is already defeated.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

If it is true that we reap what we have sown, some would say he got off easy. But Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered. How much more for us? And Paul also mentioned in Colossians 1:24 that he rejoiced in the sufferings in the flesh on their behalf because he was filling up what was lacking in Christ's afflictions for the church.

Reading just the first few words reminded me of Righteous Judgment. Perhaps this principle has something to do with his sufferings.

That said, it seems that the very nature of his actions would be enough to generate such hatred. It's interesting to ponder that if Paul were in the same position in today's world and time, he would like suffer just as much.

 

[Cameron143]

Reading just the first few words reminded me of Righteous Judgment. Perhaps this principle has something to do with his sufferings.

That said, it seems that the very nature of his actions would be enough to generate such hatred. It's interesting to ponder that if Paul were in the same position in today's world and time, he would like suffer just as much.

Depends upon where he was ministering. Seems when missionaries go into an enclave for the first time with the Gospel they often get dead. And Paul took the Gospel to a lot of new regions. This probably brought much of his suffering. The devil works hard to keep territory. But except a kernel of wheat fall to the ground and die, there will be no future harvest.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Depends upon where he was ministering. Seems when missionaries go into an enclave for the first time with the Gospel they often get dead. And Paul took the Gospel to a lot of new regions. This probably brought much of his suffering. The devil works hard to keep territory. But except a kernel of wheat fall to the ground and die, there will be no future harvest.

Hey, I just ran accross the below passage in my daily studies.

James 2:13 NLT - "There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you."

In the above instance of Righteous Judgment, we see that the execution of this Judgment will occur on Judgment day. For Paul, as one with a Purified heart, his punishment wouldn't be because of Righteous Judgment.

 

[Cameron143]

Hey, I just ran accross the below passage in my daily studies.

James 2:13 NLT - "There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you."

In the above instance of Righteous Judgment, we see that the execution of this Judgment will occur on Judgment day. For Paul, as one with a Purified heart, his punishment wouldn't be because of Righteous Judgment.

I agree as far as final judgment. But chastening in the present is still a reality for us all. Chastening is a functional judgment in the here and now.
Chastening itself is done in love from God's perspective, but it also trains us in righteousness. I doubt Paul stopped sinning and was probably subject to chastening, as are we all.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Below, we will read that Saul, later named Paul, must suffer, though we are not given a specific reason for why.

Would his suffering be, because of his persecutions that included the murder of Stephen? Or, will his suffering be a result of simply establishing the Christian Faith? Or, are there other ideas?

Remember, we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, so in this forum, we encourage one another; we build each other up.

On with the Scripture!
Acts 9:15-16 NLT - "But the Lord said, "Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel. 16 And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name's sake."

It’s not popular but Jesus suffered on earth and some of his disciples will also suffer greatly on earth

“Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭

“but rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:9

“And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭1:7‬ ‭

“and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The message was never “ if you believe in me things will be easy you won’t be persecuted won’t face trubulation won’t suffer ect it was that after this all ends you’ll be glorified with Jesus who endured suffering then was also glorified like we shall be who endure in faith

james was beheaded , Peter was told by Jesus he’s be crucified later all the apostles suffered many persecutions and rejections sufferings of all kinds because of the message the bore in the world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

pauls great suffering turned into his glory later

“For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. ( he was about to die in the great persecution of the church under nero that was occurring )

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Suffering is part of life on this earth many good people will suffer unjustly others were appointed to share in Christs sufferings and glory like paul and the other apostles who’s names are written in heavens kingdom but in the end Gods promise is after this world is a better place where life reigns and death is an old forgotten memory

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I agree as far as final judgment. But chastening in the present is still a reality for us all. Chastening is a functional judgment in the here and now.
Chastening itself is done in love from God's perspective, but it also trains us in righteousness. I doubt Paul stopped sinning and was probably subject to chastening, as are we all.

100%. Sanctification is a completely different "program."

 

[Reggie_violin]

It’s not popular but Jesus suffered on earth and some of his disciples will also suffer greatly on earth

“Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭

“but rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:9

“And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭1:7‬ ‭

“and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The message was never “ if you believe in me things will be easy you won’t be persecuted won’t face trubulation won’t suffer ect it was that after this all ends you’ll be glorified with Jesus who endured suffering then was also glorified like we shall be who endure in faith

james was beheaded , Peter was told by Jesus he’s be crucified later all the apostles suffered many persecutions and rejections sufferings of all kinds because of the message the bore in the world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

pauls great suffering turned into his glory later

“For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. ( he was about to die in the great persecution of the church under nero that was occurring )

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Suffering is part of life on this earth many good people will suffer unjustly others were appointed to share in Christs sufferings and glory like paul and the other apostles who’s names are written in heavens kingdom but in the end Gods promise is after this world is a better place where life reigns and death is an old forgotten memory

Thank you for all of the scripture to verify suffering.

 

[Reggie_violin]

Once we are saved, our sins are totally cleansed by Christ sinless blood.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV

The old self has been crucified with Christ.

" We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin." Romans 6:6

However pertaining more to Paul's suffering, of course he was a Christian and the bible says that Christians will suffer if they are walking in the spirit.

"Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted," Timothy 3:12 ESV

I can think of one man of God in the Old Testament who's sin affected his future; however I don't know if the example applies to New Testaments saints. Maybe some of you could give me your opinion on that. Because Moses struck the rock instead of speaking to it, the second go around, he was not aloud to go into the promise land.

" and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the staff, and assemble the congregation, you and Aaron your brother, and tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water. So you shall bring water out of the rock for them and give drink to the congregation and their cattle.” 9 And Moses took the staff from before the Lord, as he commanded him. 10 Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels: shall we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their livestock. 12 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe in me, to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them.” Numbers 20: 7-12 ESV

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

However pertaining more to Paul's suffering, of course he was a Christian and the bible says that Christians will suffer if they are walking in the spirit.

"Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted," Timothy 3:12 ESV

Great post. And, I think that you have given the most reasonable answer the Bible has to offer. However, most people wouldn't agree with this, for they aren't suffering. The fact of the matter is this: Those who are doing God's actual Work, Satan will throw his evil, human minions at them, causing the Righteous to suffer in this way. The majority of this world is under the control of the evil one. Thus, his minions follow the commands of their Spiritual Father, the Devil. The Devil may not be an Effectual influence in the lives of genuine Christians, but he can certainly throw his minions at us with an unrelenting force . . . if the Lord authorizes such sifting.

Christians will suffer, and if we're not, we should be concerned about our status as a "christian."

 

[Off123123123]

There seems to be a sadomasochist-ish side to the God of the bible that finds delight in people proving their love for him by suffering or being tortured. His ways apparently aren’t our ways, so if that’s a pleasure of his, then i guess so be it?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you for all of the scripture to verify suffering.

It’s a fellowship with Christ and other Christian’s and also part of the refining process

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Earthly suffering has an end as do our lives here and we have hope beyond it

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we have some pain now we can look forward to afterwards

 

[Nehemiah6]

Or, will his suffering be a result of simply establishing the Christian Faith? Or, are there other ideas?

Paul would make several missionary journeys and bring many people to Christ throughout the Roman empire, and establish many churches. He would also be the primary writer of the New Testament. Therefore he would be constantly under Satanic and demonic attacks, where evil men would do him much harm, persecute him, and seek to kill him.

2 Corinthians 11: Paul's Sufferings
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

And as a result he would suffer for the sake of the Gospel, which is the same as suffering for the sake of Christ. By the same token, his eternal rewards and crowns would probably be more than those of any Christian.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Paul would make several missionary journeys and bring many people to Christ throughout the Roman empire, and establish many churches. He would also be the primary writer of the New Testament. Therefore he would be constantly under Satanic and demonic attacks, where evil men would do him much harm, persecute him, and seek to kill him.

2 Corinthians 11: Paul's Sufferings
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

And as a result he would suffer for the sake of the Gospel, which is the same as suffering for the sake of Christ. By the same token, his eternal rewards and crowns would probably be more than those of any Christian.

Also imagine preaching the gospel in this time and place

“But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. In your patience possess ye your souls. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:12-13, 16-17, 19, 23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course the apostles were going to face suffering and persecutions and tribulations

“For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; and labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep your's also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

awe have the wrong idea about how glorious it was for Paul and Peter end them thier glory was with the lord after they got through the tribulations and trials and refiners fire in tbe earth

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Below, we will read that Saul, later named Paul, must suffer, though we are not given a specific reason for why.

Simple: Paul was preaching an objectionable message to people who's "Religious beliefs" were threatened by it - both Jews, and gentile pagans. His track record is 2 Cor 11:21-33. The Missionary life isn't an easy one even today. But imagine getting the 39 stripes 5 times!!!!.