I'm saying you have the sequence wrong, the birth pangs are prior to the war wherein the city was sacked by the Romans.
Why is the end times so important?
- Thread starter louis
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I'm saying you have the sequence wrong, the birth pangs are prior to the war wherein the city was sacked by the Romans.
2 Timothy 4:1Within the Olivet Discourse, Jesus speaks of EACH [of the two distinct time frames (70ad events; AND also [separately] the events leading up to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)] distinctly.
So Luke 21:12-24 is the only section of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus speaks of the 70ad events (note that the beginning of birth pangs in vv.8-11 are said to FOLLOW the events in this section [which section ends with the "led away captive into all the nations"], whereas in the Matthew passage "the beginning of birth pangs [plural]" kick off the entire passage that leads up to His Second Coming to the earth [note: not our Rapture, which is not its Subject] for the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [Matthew 24:29-31 paralleling Isaiah 27:12-13--note WHO, and HOW [in what manner], and TO WHERE, and BY WHOM, and WHEN, which is in every way distinct from that of our Rapture]):
Luke 21:12-24 [blb] (the 70ad events which must come BEFORE ALL of the "beginning of birth pangs [plural]," INCLUDING their being "led away captive into all the nations") -
12 But before all these things [but BEFORE all "the beginning of birth pangs" just listed], they will lay their hands upon you, and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors on account of My name. 13 It will result to you for a testimony. 14 Settle therefore in your minds not to premeditate to make a defense. 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all those opposing you will not be able to resist nor to reply to.
16 And you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put to death some from among you. 17 And you will be hated by all because of My name. 18 And no, not a hair of your head should perish. 19 By your patient endurance, you will gain your souls.
20 And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by encampments, then know that her desolation has drawn near. [note Matt22:7] 21 Then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not enter into her. 22 For these are the days of avenging, to fulfill all things having been written. [these item cannot be skipped over or bypassed, in prophecy; this is not saying these are the sum total off everything in prophecy]
23 But woe to those having in womb, and to the ones nursing in those days. For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people. [note Matt22:7] 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the TIMES of the Gentiles are fulfilled. [see Rev.11:2; correlating with Daniel 7:25,27,20-21 "whose look was more stout than his fellows"; Dan7:7 "in the night"]
["the TIMES of the Gentiles" speaks to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think Neb's statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold") which started in 606bc... this is not synonymous with what some call "the Church age" ['this present age [singular]']
The SEQUENCE revealed within the entirety of the Olivet Discourse is KEY to understanding and applying it aright.
the 70ad events come BEFORE "the beginning of birth pangs" [Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Sounds like sheep and goats. Sounds like same time not later at GWT, whatever GWT is... I never went to any theological schools so if you are using a theological term there, can you use something a layman like me could understand? I would appreciate it.
How many judgments are there? I dont know what system you hold to, but it seems very complicated with many different judgments
I agree with you about the times of the gentiles.
That's a very common understanding of the passage, but not correct.
Matthew 22:7 speaks of what Lk21:23,20 does (the 70ad events); then Matt22:8 says "THEN SAITH HE to his servants"... in what way would you say that He "THEN SAITH" anything to anyone AFTER the 70ad events (well after Jesus' ascension in 32ad)?
I see this correlating with the LATER 95ad "Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass [4:1 future aspects of the Book; (7:3--"servants of our God," who were THESE??] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" (NOT "soon," NOT "quickly" ADVERBS!)
____________
Luke 21:12 said, "but BEFORE ALL THESE" (meaning, before all of the beginning of birth pangs JUST LISTED in vv.8-11) and then proceeds to describe the 70ad events... (which must come BEFORE the beginning of birth pangs)
All the sequences in each of the 3 gospels the messages are clear, they would be delivered up to the Sanhedrin and synagogues therefore this was pre-70 AD.
We know this all happened in the early church years because the Acts and the letters tell us these things happened to them.
We know this all happened in the early church years because the Acts and the letters tell us these things happened to them.
The part of the Olivet Discourse about the 70ad events is: Luke 21:12-24 (which concludes with "shall be led away captive into all the nations")
When you begin to see that "Matt24:4-8 = Mk13:5-8 = Lk21:8-11" (and consider v.12's "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE") you will see the distinct SEQUENCE in each of the two (Lk21:12-24 and Matt24).
The one has the beginning of birth pangs AFTER they "SEE and FLEE" whereas the other has the beginning of birth pangs BEFORE when they ['THEREFORE'] shall "SEE and FLEE" (and they are entirely distinct things they are to "SEE"); this is because one section was "near-future" (to them) and other "far-future" (to them, from their standpoint in time)--and I am not suggesting "double-fulfillment," here, but distinct SEQUENCING and distinct prophecies. Jesus, as Prophet, could do this.
What do you believe? I know you believe Revelation 20 isnt a symbolic millennium but literal you said earthly kingdom.
You mentioned rapture, but is it pre or post-trib?
The 3 gospels are all speaking to the same events culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem.
Your supposed sequence is a failure to acknowledge that He says:
(Luke 21:32 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place)
Your supposed sequence is a failure to acknowledge that He says:
(Luke 21:32 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place)
The verse you are selecting proves what I have been saying is true.
But I will quote an author who puts it much better than I have been, and maybe his words will help you see it:
[quoting]
"But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof, by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken," but till all be fulfilled. Now [in verse 24!], He had [just!] introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing, and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new [future] generation, the generation [yet] to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."
--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary
[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine]
I've mentioned that the Olivet Discourse is not covering the Subject of our Rapture at all (...at the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse, He had not yet spoken anything regarding "rapture"/that Subject, but their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth]," aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the age [singular] to come" etc]; and THIS is what the disciples' Q was addressing in Matt24:3 [re: the end [singular] of the age [singular]"] and Jesus' response in what follows). I covered our Rapture in other posts (many other threads)
Mister Kelly has misappropriated "this generation". And his commentary above is in error.
Jesus is speaking to His contemporary generation, those that heard him. There is no justification to understand Jesus any other way.
(Mat 11:13-16 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John appeared. And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, who is to come. The one who has ears had better listen!
To what should I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces who call out to one another)
Jesus is speaking to His contemporary generation, those that heard him. There is no justification to understand Jesus any other way.
(Mat 11:13-16 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John appeared. And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, who is to come. The one who has ears had better listen!
To what should I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces who call out to one another)
The point was, that [v.32's] "until ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled" INCLUDES EVERYTHING that was [ALSO just] said in Lk21:24.
"shall be led away captive into all the nations: AND ..."
[whereas Matthew 24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 shows the EXACT OPPOSITE: their "gathering... TO/AT Jerusalem"]
"shall be led away captive into all the nations: AND ..."
[whereas Matthew 24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 shows the EXACT OPPOSITE: their "gathering... TO/AT Jerusalem"]
But Mr. K stated:
No justification for the above statement in bold. What he's doing his twisting Jesus words to fit this theology.
All the "this generation" statements have a contemporary meaning such as:
(Mark 8:12 Sighing deeply in his spirit he said, "Why does this generation look for a sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to this generation.")
No justification for the above statement in bold. What he's doing his twisting Jesus words to fit this theology.
All the "this generation" statements have a contemporary meaning such as:
(Mark 8:12 Sighing deeply in his spirit he said, "Why does this generation look for a sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to this generation.")
Now all you are doing is reaching outside the immediate context (bypassing the point I've presented there) to pull something in from outside, just as you did in the bottom of your Post #216 (which I addressed in my Post #219, regarding the CONTEXT of John 4:35's "REAP" )
Here's another thing to consider, regarding the Luke 11 passage someone had brought forward:
[quoting]
"The chapter closes with the judgments pronounced upon the Pharisees and Lawyers. Luke 11:37-54. He had entered the lawyer’s house as his guest. When the Pharisee marvelled, that He had not washed His hands in the ceremonial way, as commanded by the traditional law, the Lord uttered these solemn woes. They remind us of Matthew 23:1-39, but a closer study reveals the fact that the words of judgment Luke reports here were uttered at another occasion entirely. The words in Matthew were uttered in Jerusalem, while the words in Luke were spoken when He was journeying towards Jerusalem."
--Gaebelein [source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine]
)Here's another thing to consider, regarding the Luke 11 passage someone had brought forward:
[quoting]
"The chapter closes with the judgments pronounced upon the Pharisees and Lawyers. Luke 11:37-54. He had entered the lawyer’s house as his guest. When the Pharisee marvelled, that He had not washed His hands in the ceremonial way, as commanded by the traditional law, the Lord uttered these solemn woes. They remind us of Matthew 23:1-39, but a closer study reveals the fact that the words of judgment Luke reports here were uttered at another occasion entirely. The words in Matthew were uttered in Jerusalem, while the words in Luke were spoken when He was journeying towards Jerusalem."
--Gaebelein [source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine]
Not really, I'm showing how "this generation" is used to mean his contemporary generation, just one of many (16 in total) that make the same point as to why Mr. Kelly and you are misusing it based on supposition and presupposition.
I didn't use John 4 out of context and didn't supply the whole as it was not necessary to support my points.
No, the parts that FOLLOW "the beginning of birth pangs" [in the "far-future" section of the Olivet Discourse], it clearly says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (which *here* INCLUDES "the beginning of birth pangs"), whereas the section regarding the 70ad events (Lk21:12-24) must come "BEFORE ALL these [beginning of birth pangs]"
... so the sequence is:
1) the 70ad events (BEFORE ALL these "beginning of birth pangs"), including the "shall be carried away captive into all the nations: AND Jerusalem shall be trodden down of..."; In the 70ad events, they "SEE then FLEE" when they "see Jerusalem compassed with armies"
2) then "the beginning of birth pangs" (this kicks off the Matthew and Mark passages/events [the "far-future" events]; same as Lk21:8-11)
3) then they "SEE then FLEE" when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place [I believe this correlates with Rev12:6,14 where there are 1260 days remaining (and Satan and his angels cast unto the earth to be now limited to that sphere)]
4) then it says what I quoted at top: "[______] TILL ALL THESE things be fulfilled" (which includes, this time, "the beginning of birth pangs" which were not what was involved in the 70ad events, because the 70ad events must come "BEFORE ALL THESE [beginning of birth pangs]," which is what makes this entirely distinct)
... so the sequence is:
1) the 70ad events (BEFORE ALL these "beginning of birth pangs"), including the "shall be carried away captive into all the nations: AND Jerusalem shall be trodden down of..."; In the 70ad events, they "SEE then FLEE" when they "see Jerusalem compassed with armies"
2) then "the beginning of birth pangs" (this kicks off the Matthew and Mark passages/events [the "far-future" events]; same as Lk21:8-11)
3) then they "SEE then FLEE" when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place [I believe this correlates with Rev12:6,14 where there are 1260 days remaining (and Satan and his angels cast unto the earth to be now limited to that sphere)]
4) then it says what I quoted at top: "[______] TILL ALL THESE things be fulfilled" (which includes, this time, "the beginning of birth pangs" which were not what was involved in the 70ad events, because the 70ad events must come "BEFORE ALL THESE [beginning of birth pangs]," which is what makes this entirely distinct)
^ EDIT: I had meant to also include verse 33: "33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." (the "ye" being a consistent, "proleptic 'ye'"... meaning, ultimately, to those to whom the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom was promised)
"They took place a long time ago but you insist on a physical fulfillment"
That notion you espouse got traction100 years ago BEFORE israel became a nation.
There is no reason to go down that rabbit trail.
Now,take into account the bizarre explainations needed to come up with some explaination about buying and selling restricted,the mark that the entire planet MUST TAKE, the ac,the rapture,the gt,the hailstones of fire,the flying scorpions,the 2 witnesses,and on,and on.
See that?
THAT IS WHY you poo poo the rapture.
You got duped friend
Show us ignorants the flying scorpions that sting all but the 144k jews.No they don't, so I would conclude you have the sequence incorrect.
By the way that is one hideous looking post
Something like that is surely recorded by Josephus.
And since thousands cheered when the 2 witnesses were martyred surely it wasn't done in a corner and it got recorded ,right?
I'll wait