Why free will?

[rogerg]

Nope; although, the scripture you quoted is correct; you are not.

He's chosen to have mercy on them that believe and harden those who don't. Those who don't are the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; but they had the choice all along.

Nope - those whom He saves, from/with that, they are given Christ's faith, and from Christ's faith, do they believe. Believing comes as a result of salvation it does not bring salvation to anyone.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[rogerg]

This is the root of "deterministic" calvinism/predestination.

The flesh is programmed for self-preservation- and while the Gospel is an "offer of grace", behind that offer of grace is a promise to destroy everyone that doesn't accept that offer.

You don't have to be "spiritual" to accept an offer that will save yourself. You just have to take the person threatening to destroy your soul at his word.

The gospel is definitely not an offer of grace - it is the unconditional giving of grace to those chosen for it by God. Acceptance of the offer is not a prerequisite nor even a possibility to receive it. Those who think it is, don't have it. Christ alone is the
Saviour, man is not.

 

[Obedience]

Why free will ?
Free will for learning good and evil.

 

[SomeDisciple]

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

1 verse from a weak translation doesn't make a doctrine.

Acceptance of the offer is not a prerequisite nor even a possibility to receive it.

You said it wasn't an offer; and then said "acceptance of the offer". Is there an offer or not?

Of course there is; and it's the only way to receive grace.

Those who think it is, don't have it. Christ alone is the
Saviour, man is not.

Of course he is; and he gave us the choice of whether or not we're gonna be saved, because he is not a sicko. He didn't create people and pre-determine them to destruction without giving them a way out.

 

[rogerg]

1 verse from a weak translation doesn't make a doctrine.

So what do you think that verse is saying?

You said it wasn't an offer; and then said "acceptance of the offer". Is there an offer or not?

Of course there is; and it's the only way to receive grace.

I was referring to your statement of the offer. I do not think there is offer, nor is one even possible.
If someone has to accept grace in order to have it, then it isn't grace.

Of course he is; and he gave us the choice of whether or not we're gonna be saved, because he is not a sicko. He didn't create people and pre-determine them to destruction without giving them a way out.

Well, if that's true, then by making that choice in your scenario they do the saving, in which case, it isn't Christ. It can't be both, so who is it? If Christ, then those saved are saved because He chose them, not because they choose Him.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Well, if that's true, then by making that choice the one making it does the saving,

No, it doesn't.

If you're drowning in the sea; you can't just choose your way out of drowning. You need a savior. If I come along in a boat; and be like "hey, dude! You want a ride in my boat?" and you say "yes, I would like a ride in your boat"- my boat still saved you; because without my boat you would be screwed.

If you went to your friends and told them "This guy picked me up in his boat while I was drowning: I SAVED MYSELF" they would correctly think you are either full of yourself, or dumb.

 

[rogerg]

No, it doesn't.

If you're drowning in the sea; you can't just choose your way out of drowning. You need a savior. If I come along in a boat; and be like "hey, dude! You want a ride in my boat?" and you say "yes, I would like a ride in your boat"- my boat still saved you; because without my boat you would be screwed.

If you went to your friends and told them "This guy picked me up in his boat while I was drowning: I SAVED MYSELF" they would correctly think you are either full of yourself, or dumb.

But that example is incorrect. Those saved are not drowning - they are both already drowned and dead. Can a dead man assist in his saving? No. So, if the person in the boat takes the drowned dead person into their boat, all they have in their boat is a dead drowned person. But that is not what is needed nor what Christ does. Upon salvation, He gives spiritual life to those who are already spiritually dead. Observe the "quickened" (made alive) and "who were dead" and "being dead" in the below verses. God did not use the word
"dead" lightly in them - He meant dead, dead.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[PaulThomson]

Man's problem is not so much with his will as with his desires.

Biblically "will" (thelEma), and "to will" (thelEin) is desire (thelEma), and "to desire" (thelein)

 

[SomeDisciple]

But that example is incorrect. Those saved are not drowning - they are both already drowned and dead. Can a dead man assist in his saving? No. So, if the person in the boat takes the drowned dead person into their boat, all they have in their boat is a dead drowned person. But that is not what is needed nor what Christ does. Upon salvation, He gives spiritual life to those who are already spiritually dead. Observe the "quickened" (made alive) and "who were dead" and "being dead" in the below verses. God did not use the word
"dead" lightly in them - He meant dead, dead.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The point of the metaphor was simply to point out how ridiculous it is for a person who chooses to receive something to then afterward claim to have given that which they received to themselves. The entire point of view that making a choice somehow constitutes "assisting" in your salvation is a warped view.

That Jesus gives life to the spiritually dead is not disputed.

 

[rogerg]

The point of the metaphor was simply to point out how ridiculous it is for a person who chooses to receive something to then afterward claim to have given that which they received to themselves. The entire point of view that making a choice somehow constitutes "assisting" in your salvation is a warped view.

That Jesus gives life to the spiritually dead is not disputed.

It was disputed by you in/by your example. Remember the drowning (but not drowned) person ?

You make incorrect/inappropriate assumptions in the above, regarding what I am saying.
No one is given salvation because they believe they' can receive it by asking for it. Instead, it is given solely as an unsolicited free gift
from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God to (unworthy) people whom He had so chosen, with no prerequisites (to include asking) associated to it whatsoever besides that He chose them - He just gives it, period.

BYW -the "assisting" was in your example. You, in-effect, made it by the necessity of the drowning person's responding to the guy in the boat. I just pointed out to you what you were saying: remember the " You want a ride in my boat?" and you say "yes, I would like a ride in your boat". So, he is saved because he said yes. Had he not said yes, then he wouldn't be saved and drown, so therefore, by that, he assisted in his being saved. That same option does not/cannot exist for someone who is either physically or spiritually dead.

 

[SomeDisciple]

It was disputed by you in/by your example. Remember the drowning (but not drowned) person ?

It's like you didn't even read the post you are responding to.

You make incorrect/inappropriate assumptions in the above, regarding what I am saying.

I know exactly what you are saying; and it's wrong.

No one is given salvation because they believe they' can receive it by asking for it.

True statement. They aren't saved because they believe they can receive it by asking. They are saved when they choose to believe on Jesus and do thereby receive it. I never said anything about the person being saved has to ask anything.

So, he is saved because he said yes. Had he not said yes, then he wouldn't be saved and drown, so therefore, by that, he assisted in his being saved.

That he "assisted" is just as ridiculous as if a person "assists" in the giving of a gift by simply receiving it.

 

[rogerg]

It's like you didn't even read the post you are responding to.

I know exactly what you are saying; and it's wrong.

True statement. They aren't saved because they believe they can receive it by asking. They are saved when they choose to believe on Jesus and do thereby receive it. I never said anything about the person being saved has to ask anything.

That he "assisted" is just as ridiculous as if a person "assists" in the giving of a gift by simply receiving it.

Okay, think we've about reached the end of this discussion.

 

[Kroogz]

No, it doesn't.

If you're drowning in the sea; you can't just choose your way out of drowning. You need a savior. If I come along in a boat; and be like "hey, dude! You want a ride in my boat?" and you say "yes, I would like a ride in your boat"- my boat still saved you; because without my boat you would be screwed.

If you went to your friends and told them "This guy picked me up in his boat while I was drowning: I SAVED MYSELF" they would correctly think you are either full of yourself, or dumb.

A better analogy....Your drowning at sea. You see a massive boat that says," Rescue Ship." And you trust it can save you and you pass out from exhaustion. It passes you by, because trusting in the ship added merit to the saving ship.

Or watching your favorite race car do 200 mph many times. And the announcer asks the audience if they trust that the race car can do 10 mph. You say ," yes, I trust it can go 10 mph, I have watched it do 200 mph many times!" Did your trust in the race car help it go 10 mph? Or add merit to the race car?

To say trusting in the Lord for salvation is a "work" is not biblical. And antagonistic to His Grace and Mercy.

 

[p_rehbein]

Why free will? Because it is freely given. It can not be earned. Like Salvation!

 

[rogerg]

A better analogy....Your drowning at sea. You see a massive boat that says," Rescue Ship." And you trust it can save you and you pass out from exhaustion. It passes you by, because trusting in the ship added merit to the saving ship.

Or watching your favorite race car do 200 mph many times. And the announcer asks the audience if they trust that the race car can do 10 mph. You say ," yes, I trust it can go 10 mph, I have watched it do 200 mph many times!" Did your trust in the race car help it go 10 mph? Or add merit to the race car?

To say trusting in the Lord for salvation is a "work" is not biblical. And antagonistic to His Grace and Mercy.

First, trusting in the Lord doesn't bring salvation, it comes from salvation: salvation comes first, with everything else from that.
Second, a spiritually dead person, because they are spiritually dead (which everyone was prior to salvation), whether realized or not, is unable to do anything but be a dead lifeless recipient: dead means dead.

The key is that that the person who drowned was dead. The following verses provide the basis of that.
Not only are we told they were spiritually dead, but also that it is God alone who made them spiritually alive.
Being spiritually dead, they were entirely dependent upon the actions and will of God and His mercy for life and upon nothing else.
I know most people don't like this concept - that salvation rests entirely upon God and not themselves - nevertheless
He is the Saviour and man is not.

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Kroogz]

First, trusting in the Lord doesn't bring salvation, it comes from salvation: salvation comes first, with everything else from that.

What must I do to be saved?

Paul lied. He told the jailer......Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved AND the same goes for your household.

Why didn't Paul tell the jailer the truth? Look bud, you're dead and you can't do a thing. In fact, how are you even moving and breathing because you are literally dead? I wish I knew bud. Same for your household, they are literally dead and cannot even recognize if they need to be saved from drowning in water, let alone saved for eternity.

 

[NightTwister]

It doesn't make sense that God would repent of making man, if before He made them He knew the outcome of every choice of the men He would make. I don't think it is necessary to assume that God exhaustively knows the future, in order to also believe the Bible and the Gospel.

Your god is too small.

 

[NightTwister]

What must I do to be saved?

Paul lied. He told the jailer......Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved AND the same goes for your household.

Why didn't Paul tell the jailer the truth? Look bud, you're dead and you can't do a thing. In fact, how are you even moving and breathing because you are literally dead? I wish I knew bud. Same for your household, they are literally dead and cannot even recognize if they need to be saved from drowning in water, let alone saved for eternity.

That's called "means of Grace." Just because we were made able to respond doesn't mean it's of us.

 

[rogerg]

Paul lied. He told the jailer......Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved AND the same goes for your household.

Why didn't Paul tell the jailer the truth? Look bud, you're dead and you can't do a thing. In fact, how are you even moving and breathing because you are literally dead? I wish I knew bud. Same for your household, they are literally dead and cannot even recognize if they need to be saved from drowning in water, let alone saved for eternity.

Believing comes from being imputed the faith of Christ as a gift (see Gal 2:16 below) - the faith of Christ is imputed through salvation as a fruit of the Spirit, which faith results in our believing. If someone truly believes in Christ as Saviour, it is only because it came from the faith of Christ being imputed unto them by God through salvation.
Obviously, what Paul said was correct - that they must believe; that they must do so - that they believe was result - but the cause was God, and not themselves (see Acts 13:48 below).

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No, don't think so. Did you not read the verses I provided in my reply to you - that the minds of the unsaved and unbelieving were/are blinded? Can truly free will come out of a mind that has been blinded even when evidence is presented to it? For that to happen, it first must be unblinded; that is, the will is formulated according to the mind's assessment of the evidence given it.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Your kjv is so polluted it should read this way.

3 But if our gospel is covered up, it is covered up to those who are lost,
4 Those whose intellects The god of this world has blinded, because they do not believe, lest the light of The Gospel of the glory of The Messiah, who is the image of God, should dawn upon them.

Just means people who become educated think they're too smart to be duped into believing in God, which is a trick of Satan. But that does not take away the fact that Romans 1 says God has still "revealed Himself" to them. They just don't believe in what they call fairy tales.