WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?

[fredoheaven]

Your second comment is not relevant because you are assuming that the Greek word "“heis” is in the original text, but it is not. The translators even italicized it to make sure we didn't think it was.

Only you that said that along with YLT. Too bad, almost all English Translations have it with the KJB. Giving you the basics of an italicized word which may have been not present in the “TR” does not mean they were incorrect. Critical and conservative scholars who know Greek would agree that KJB is correct by not having it in the italicized form. Below is the link for your assessment.

https://biblehub.com/matthew/28-1.htm

 

[elights]

Hello elights, anytime God focuses on anything in his word, we are to pay attention to it. So, when God points out, in multiple places within his word, how his word actually came to be, then we can confidently conclude that God is in fact teaching us that knowing who wrote the Bible (authorship) is no less important than knowing any other doctrine.

As far as believing it the way its written (if you're referring to the translations we have), this idea opens the door to much confusion.

For example, there are many English translations and just as many which disagree with each other in content. Verses that have been translated differently, essentially, teach differently.

Fortunately, God has not left us without his preserved word, which is perfect and pure. He has left us the Hebrew and Greek texts by which we can always go back and check to see if the translation we are reading has done a faithful job in any particular passage you're studying.

While this version isn't without its share of errors, I have found the KJV translation to be the most faithful to the original text.

I hope this helps.

I am a bible student and for years now, I have realized that man’s failure to walk with God is not because of the Bible versions they read,when you yield your heart fully to the Holy Spirit,He teaches you all things even concerning which version could be better for you,the focal point of the word of God isn’t to prove its authorship because it’s not even anywhere communicated in the Bible,but to reveal the plan of God for mankind like I earlier said,I see Christians who have read the whole Greek and Hebrew versions but all they do is teaching truths to others which they don’t themselves practice,if you read with the Spirit and surrender to him as the author of his word, he teaches you every truth and offers the grace to practice it,this is what I do and I have results!!! I just don’t know what is wrong with this generation that can settle for being referred to as ‘learned’ but are sick inside and out,struggle with addictions,live in anxiety,fear,tormented by evil spirits,etc yet they read the Bible where Christ overcame ALL THIS for us!!!

 

[EddieRamos]

Miss, this one but the translation of the Greek Sabaton here would not be "Sabbath" (singular/plural), not even "Sabbaths" (plural) but a week (singular) to mean 7 days period and not a day or the seventh of a week. Why?

Because this will contradict the day of rest (7th day) of the Jewish tradition. The sabbath is not a fasting day, it is a feasting day.

I believe that the Pharisees fasted twice in the seven-day period not twice in a day. For Sabaton could either mean a week i.e. seven-day period or a day of rest (the seventh day). But as said it is important to know that in translation you need to consider its context without any contradiction. The Jewish observance of fasting is only to be in the Day of Atonement, a single fast (Lev 16:29; Num 29:7). The Pharisee on the other hand has to do it twice a week (in a seven-day period) and not to fast twice in 24 hr period or during the Sabbath or on the seventh day of the week (Saturday) because of the primary reason of a single fast in a day.

I'm not sure why you continue to negate what I'm trying to explain, but that is up to you. I showed you that the word "Sabbath/s" in the Greek come from the Hebrew word for "Sabbath/s". Therefore, the Hebrew text is the only place where we can begin our study on this word and How God used it. Is it ever translated as anything but Sabbath/s? A quick search can answer this question for you, and that answer is, no. The translators always translated it faithfully as "sabbath/s". But that changed in the New Testament, for no apparent reason other than it made no sense to them to continue translating it as Sabbath, except when it did make sense. If you hold to an infallible KJV, then nothing I present will mean anything anyway. But I will continue for the sake of those following along.

First, the only explanation you keep giving me is one derived from textbooks "can mean week". Yet, in more than 100 times this word was used in the Old Testament, that never took place. Why? because God provided his own word for "week". But he chose not to do that in the New Testament, even though he could have easily done so. The "Sabbath" can mean "week" rule was made up due to confusion of how to understand the contexts in which it was found.

So, when you say repeat what someone else said, that "Sabaton can mean week", you have to first really think about what that is saying. A 7th day sabbath, was always a single day in duration. Therefore, "Sabbaths", does not describe the days in between each Sabbath, but rather multiple Sabbath days.

And where did you read in the Bible that no one was allowed to fast on the Sabbath day? That they had to eat because it was a day of feasting? Did not Moses fast for forty days and nights (twice)? Certainly, he did not feast each Sabbath day he was in the mount. And what about Christ? Did not he do the same? We're told that the Jews had to gather enough food on the 6th day in order to have for the next. This harmonizes perfectly with the account of the Pharisee and the publican. This Pharisee was obviously boasting about how holy he was and then begins mentioning all his works. And on top of that, when everyone else was feasting on the sabbath day, he wasn't. We're never told how many meals they ate in a day, but if it was only 2, then how holy does that make him look? How much better does that make him look next to this miserable publican? Oh, but a whole lot. At least in his own mind. Contradiction here for keeping the faithful translation of "Sabbath" in the Old Testament and carrying it over to the New Testament? No way.

We didn't even have to look outside the Bible for some other rational explanation that can't be backed by any scriptures.

 

[EddieRamos]

I am a bible student and for years now, I have realized that man’s failure to walk with God is not because of the Bible versions they read,when you yield your heart fully to the Holy Spirit,He teaches you all things even concerning which version could be better for you,the focal point of the word of God isn’t to prove its authorship because it’s not even anywhere communicated in the Bible,but to reveal the plan of God for mankind like I earlier said,I see Christians who have read the whole Greek and Hebrew versions but all they do is teaching truths to others which they don’t themselves practice,if you read with the Spirit and surrender to him as the author of his word, he teaches you every truth and offers the grace to practice it,this is what I do and I have results!!! I just don’t know what is wrong with this generation that can settle for being referred to as ‘learned’ but are sick inside and out,struggle with addictions,live in anxiety,fear,tormented by evil spirits,etc yet they read the Bible where Christ overcame ALL THIS for us!!!

Good to hear that you study the Bible, but (and no offense) people can study their whole lives and still know very little. I'm sure you would agree. So, it's not the amount of time we have studied but rather how we study (what method we use and are we using God's method) and whether or not we have the Holy Spirit within us. God also has to open our eyes to truths in his own time. Many believe that we can read any translation and the Holy Spirit will instruct us which words have been translated incorrectly and which are correct. That's not the case at all. This can be proven very easily by asking someone about what they believe to be true about a number of doctrines. For example (and this is outside the scope of this group topic), many believe in free will unto salvation, while many believe in election unto salvation, yet these are contradicting doctrines and both sides claim to have the holy spirit within them.

There is a serious problem with this. The Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, but we don't have to guess how he will accomplish this, the Bible tells us:

1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Acts 17:11 (KJV 1900)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This is how the Holy Ghost teaches, by the true child of God studying his word and comparing spiritual with spiritual. This is how we rightly divide the word of truth and gain spiritual understanding of God's word. We always strive to seek for harmony within the pages of the Bible for any doctrine we hold to be true. Many just want to claim they don't need doctrine, they just need relationship. But they fail to realize that whatever they believe to be true about God and the Bible, is a doctrine.

You are correct though, that many who speak of the things of the Bible still love to live in sin, and this likewise is a grave error, as they are only fooling themselves.

Romans 2:21–23 (KJV 1900)
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

You repeated this statement about God's authorship not being a focal point, but what is this passage saying?

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV 1900)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God (is God breathed), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Anytime God focuses even one verse on a subject, it becomes a focal point for the Bible student. I hope this helps.

 

[elights]

Good to hear that you study the Bible, but (and no offense) people can study their whole lives and still know very little. I'm sure you would agree. So, it's not the amount of time we have studied but rather how we study (what method we use and are we using God's method) and whether or not we have the Holy Spirit within us. God also has to open our eyes to truths in his own time. Many believe that we can read any translation and the Holy Spirit will instruct us which words have been translated incorrectly and which are correct. That's not the case at all. This can be proven very easily by asking someone about what they believe to be true about a number of doctrines. For example (and this is outside the scope of this group topic), many believe in free will unto salvation, while many believe in election unto salvation, yet these are contradicting doctrines and both sides claim to have the holy spirit within them.

There is a serious problem with this. The Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, but we don't have to guess how he will accomplish this, the Bible tells us:

1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Acts 17:11 (KJV 1900)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This is how the Holy Ghost teaches, by the true child of God studying his word and comparing spiritual with spiritual. This is how we rightly divide the word of truth and gain spiritual understanding of God's word. We always strive to seek for harmony within the pages of the Bible for any doctrine we hold to be true. Many just want to claim they don't need doctrine, they just need relationship. But they fail to realize that whatever they believe to be true about God and the Bible, is a doctrine.

You are correct though, that many who speak of the things of the Bible still love to live in sin, and this likewise is a grave error, as they are only fooling themselves.

Romans 2:21–23 (KJV 1900)
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

You repeated this statement about God's authorship not being a focal point, but what is this passage saying?

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV 1900)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God (is God breathed), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Anytime God focuses even one verse on a subject, it becomes a focal point for the Bible student. I hope this helps.

I don’t want to sound special when I tell you I have been studying the word most of my time, I might know little but at least I practice it and have results,I have my friends who even teach in Bible colleges,the truth they know much more than you do (not trying to put you down),they are learned and when they talk you sense they know much,but they are tormented by illnesses,addictions,anxiety but the Bible that contains those complex stuff they teach is the same that says he took our sicknesses,so am already used to having people who ‘claim’ to know the Bible,it’s translations,interpretations,right versions yet their lives don’t allign with their knowledge.its good to know much but if it doesn’t have any way it brings growth in your communion with God,it’s only relevant to win arguments,no other big deal!!

 

[EddieRamos]

I don’t want to sound special when I tell you I have been studying the word most of my time, I might know little but at least I practice it and have results,I have my friends who even teach in Bible colleges,the truth they know much more than you do (not trying to put you down),they are learned and when they talk you sense they know much,but they are tormented by illnesses,addictions,anxiety but the Bible that contains those complex stuff they teach is the same that says he took our sicknesses,so am already used to having people who ‘claim’ to know the Bible,it’s translations,interpretations,right versions yet their lives don’t allign with their knowledge.its good to know much but if it doesn’t have any way it brings growth in your communion with God,it’s only relevant to win arguments,no other big deal!!

Thanks for your reply. In my last post, I mentioned that it’s easy to prove if someone has true doctrine, simply by asking a few questions or (in this case) by continuing a conversation. I'm afraid you misunderstand the Bible when it says that Christ took away our sickness (infirmities).

Isaiah 53:4-5 (KJV)
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.

This passage finds it's fulfillment in:

Matthew 8:16-17 (KJV) 16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

So here we have Jesus healing the sick and casting out devils. But if we stop here, then we have not properly understood what God is trying to teach us. Sadly, many people read these passages and others like it, and then believe that physical healing is actually part of the gospel, but it's not.

We must remember that Christ (God) always taught in parables.

Matthew 13:34 (KJV) 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

And if we remember this principle, then we begin looking for more information in the scriptures, and we find that physical healing in the Bible was always a picture which pointed to becoming saved. It was a picture of being healed from the sickness of our sin.

Mark 2:9-11 (KJV) 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

This is a strange account if we stop to think about it. Jesus sees a man who is physically cripple and instead of saying, "Arise take up thy bed..." he says, "thy sins be forgiven thee". This is God equating physical healing with the forgiveness of sins which us salvation.
And then when he's being questioned, he teaches the same thing the other way.

He says, "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house".

Thus time, instead of saying that his sins are forgiven (because he just said, "that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins"), he tells the cripple to get up and walk. This teaches us that infirmities, in the scriptures, pointed to someone who was in need of salvation.

NNwe can confirm thus because we're given evidence of people living their whole life in poverty and sickness and yet they were regarded as kings in the eyes of God because, while they didn’t have earthly riches or physical health, they possessed the most valuable thing of all, salvation.

Luke 16:19-21 (KJV) 19 -- There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Christ bore our spiritual sickness of sin not our physical sickness. The physical body of a true child of God will suffer infirmities and eventually death because this body is still cursed by sin. The proof of this is in the fact that we all still get old and die. This is the direct result of the curse of sin.

Genesis 3:19 (KJV) 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

It isn't until the last day, when our mortal, sin cursed bodies are redeemed and changed into an immortal and glorious body. Until then, we will all suffer illness and death.

John 6:63 (KJV) 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Noah761]

Thank you for your question. The answer is that it doesn't matter who the men were who put together the Bible, just like it doesn't matter who actually penned the Bible. All were used as instruments of God to accomplish His task. So, the final product that we ended with was not based on any informed decision makers here on earth (although that's the only thing atheists may see), but it was by the doing of God. How can we be so sure? Well, God, in his wisdom, has given us assurance in His very word, that he has taken it upon himself to be the one who preserves and protects his Word pure forever. The only thing the wisdom of men could have done (if it was left up to them), was no doubt mess the whole thing up.


Psalm 12:6–7 (KJV 1900)
6 The words of the Lord are pure words:
As silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord,
Thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

This is why we can be completely confident that the Holy Scriptures are not missing any books, nor have any uninspired books within it. The translations we have is another story altogether as none are inspired by God. Their mistakes in translation are proof of this. The only word that God promised to preserve was his original writings, no matter how many times they were copied over.

Eddie, in this reply you have quoted Psa. 12:6, 7 and by your comments, it seems you are using it as a support as I've witnessed 'KJV Only' believers using that passage. Later in this thread you write that you are not 'KJV Only' because you know the KJV is not perfect. There is at least one important point the KJV gives on this passage that 'KJV Only' people overlook. The KJV translators did use Margin Notes as they explained in their long forward "The Translators to the Reader", which forward is not found in most KJV Bibles today. It is an important read for KJV users and it is available online: http://www.thekingsbible.com/Library/Preface

In Psalm 12 KJV there are 8 Margin Notes and a very important one is on v7 and I quote:

"them from: Heb. him, etc: that is, every one of them, etc"

The phrase in v7 "thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever." refers to the persons, not the words. When you read the Psalm as a whole it is clear he is preserving, helping, saving, the godly, the faithful; those oppressed by the the wicked who are walking on every side. Considering the Margin Notes of the KJV which clarify the meaning, the RSV and NRSV give the KJV clarification in the translation itself:

"The promises of the LORD are promises that are pure, silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. Do thou, O LORD, protect us, guard us ever from this generation." (Ps 12:6-7, RSV)

"The promises of the LORD are promises that are pure, silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. You, O LORD, will protect us; you will guard us from this generation forever." (Ps 12:6-7, NRSV) **Notice the slight variance of understanding in the underlined phrase from the RSV to NRSV.

For those interested in discussing the Hebrew grammar, the NET2 Bible has an explanatory note on the word "them" in v7 -

"tn The third person plural pronominal suffix on the verb is masculine, referring back to the “oppressed” and “needy” in v. 5 (both of those nouns are plural in form), suggesting that the verb means “protect” here. The suffix does not refer to אִמֲרוֹת (ʾimarot, “words”) in v. 6, because that term is feminine gender."

In case it is questioned if this is a modern perversion of the KJV, John Gill pointed out in the 18th century this very idea:

"Thou shall keep them, O Lord,.... Not the words before mentioned, as Aben Ezra explains it, for the affix is masculine and not feminine; not but God has wonderfully kept and preserved the sacred writings; and he keeps every word of promise which he has made; and the doctrines of the Gospel will always continue from one generation to another; but the sense is, that God will keep the poor and needy, and such as he sets in safety, as Kimchi rightly observes: they are not their own keepers, but God is the keeper of them; he keeps them by his power, and in his Son, in whose hands they are, and who is able to keep them from falling; they are kept by him from a total and final falling away; from the dominion and damning power of sin, and from being devoured by Satan, and from the evil of the world: and this the psalmist had good reason to believe, because of the love of God to them, his covenant with them, and the promises of safety and salvation he has made unto them;

thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever; or "thou shalt preserve him"; that is, everyone of the poor and needy, from the wicked generation of men in which they live, from being corrupted or intimidated by them; and who are described in the beginning of the psalm. Some take these words to be a prayer, "keep thou them, O Lord, and preserve them". and so the following words may be thought to be a reason or argument enforcing the request." ** John Gill puts up a lively defense of the authenticity of 1 John 5:7 so he is not a KJV criticizer. I would also point out, John Gill's commentary on these 2 verses match well the RSV & NRSV.

IMPORTANT, it has been pointed out in this thread that we do not know other posters personally and observe their conduct in life; so personal opinions truly mean little. It is important to reply with or quote recognized authorities, scholars, and men of God that history has authenticated as reputable, scholarly and honest. If we are going to use a verse or passage, at least do a critical study to know what the passage truly means before insisting it supports the overall argument being made.

 

[EddieRamos]

Eddie, in this reply you have quoted Psa. 12:6, 7 and by your comments, it seems you are using it as a support as I've witnessed 'KJV Only' believers using that passage. Later in this thread you write that you are not 'KJV Only' because you know the KJV is not perfect. There is at least one important point the KJV gives on this passage that 'KJV Only' people overlook. The KJV translators did use Margin Notes as they explained in their long forward "The Translators to the Reader", which forward is not found in most KJV Bibles today. It is an important read for KJV users and it is available online: http://www.thekingsbible.com/Library/Preface

In Psalm 12 KJV there are 8 Margin Notes and a very important one is on v7 and I quote:

"them from: Heb. him, etc: that is, every one of them, etc"

The phrase in v7 "thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever." refers to the persons, not the words. When you read the Psalm as a whole it is clear he is preserving, helping, saving, the godly, the faithful; those oppressed by the the wicked who are walking on every side. Considering the Margin Notes of the KJV which clarify the meaning, the RSV and NRSV give the KJV clarification in the translation itself:

"The promises of the LORD are promises that are pure, silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. Do thou, O LORD, protect us, guard us ever from this generation." (Ps 12:6-7, RSV)

"The promises of the LORD are promises that are pure, silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. You, O LORD, will protect us; you will guard us from this generation forever." (Ps 12:6-7, NRSV) **Notice the slight variance of understanding in the underlined phrase from the RSV to NRSV.

For those interested in discussing the Hebrew grammar, the NET2 Bible has an explanatory note on the word "them" in v7 -

"tn The third person plural pronominal suffix on the verb is masculine, referring back to the “oppressed” and “needy” in v. 5 (both of those nouns are plural in form), suggesting that the verb means “protect” here. The suffix does not refer to אִמֲרוֹת (ʾimarot, “words”) in v. 6, because that term is feminine gender."

In case it is questioned if this is a modern perversion of the KJV, John Gill pointed out in the 18th century this very idea:



IMPORTANT, it has been pointed out in this thread that we do not know other posters personally and observe their conduct in life; so personal opinions truly mean little. It is important to reply with or quote recognized authorities, scholars, and men of God that history has authenticated as reputable, scholarly and honest. If we are going to use a verse or passage, at least do a critical study to know what the passage truly means before insisting it supports the overall argument being made.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Now, if by "critical study" you mean we should search out what those theologians (that you speak very highly of) have to say, then you are not doing critical study. You are taking a shortcut in your own studies and worse yet, because you hold these theologians in such high esteem, then it becomes that much easier to believe what they say, especially if their words agree with the words of other theologians. Why is that? Because you have recognized them to be "men of God", therefore the fact that their words agree should be evidence enough for anyone.

But the first problem is that it is impossible for us to look into the heart of anyone to determine whether they are truly saved.

John 3:8 (KJV) 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Salvation is a personal, intimate relationship with God. It is something that each individual has to confirm with God. Salvation is not like instant pudding where all we have to do is say a few magic words to make it happen. It is something that was to be waited upon with hope until God speaks to your soul (not literally) and assures you of true Salvation.

Lamentations 3:26 (KJV)
26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

Psalms 35:3 (KJV)
3 Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me:
say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.

So the whole idea of trusting in the conclusions of others because of who we think they are or how many degrees they have, should really go out the window. There's no need for anyone here to know each other, or to know what our backgrounds are or how many degrees we have, before considering the importance of their words.

Anyone, stranger or acquaintance, who puts forth a study or doctrine that is accompanied with scripture should be taken as a matter of importance until we check their words out against the scriptures. Paul and those in Thessolonica are a great example. Peter was a simple fisherman with no degrees, and so on.

So, your conclusion is based on the word of others, but, let's take one more look, you and I, and perhaps I may be able to point out why they are all wrong in this particular case. Please bear with me.

Psalms 12 (KJV)
TO THE CHIEF MUSICIAN UPON SHEMINITH, A PSALM OF DAVID.
1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth;
for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

Thus is a plea for help and God is about to tell us how the child of God is oppressed .....

2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour:
with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips,
and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

They're oppressed by the words of the wicked which go against the words of God. So, the focus of this chapter has to do with words, the words of man which are corrupt and the words of God, which are pure.

5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy,
now will I arise, saith the LORD;
I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

The child of God who live among the children of men are oppressed by the words and deeds of those around us. Here is an example:

2 Peter 2:7-8 (KJV) 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.

And what deliverance do we have from the evil conversationof the wicked? We have God's words. He has delivered his people by giving them his pure words which are living words and which can never be corrupted. He has set them in safety, meaning, he has saved them with his word. That is why he goes on to say:

6 The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

The context us still focusing on God delivering his people with his word. And his words, of course, represents the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God. Now, notice here that God’s words are tried as silver in fire is tried. Yet, we also read the same thing about his people.

Psalms 66:10 (KJV)
10 For thou, O God, hast proved us:
thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.

Zechariah 13:9 (KJV)
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name, and I will hear them:
I will say, It is my people:
and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

So, God identifies his word with his people because that is how God saved them, through his word. The very next verse is still focusing on the same thing, God's words along with his people.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

But, like Lot, as long as we live in this world, the filthy communication and deeds of the wicked to continue to get worse and worse.

8 The wicked walk on every side,
when the vilest men are exalted.

But thanks be to God who preserves his words forever as he does his own people.

 

[elights]

Thanks for your reply. In my last post, I mentioned that it’s easy to prove if someone has true doctrine, simply by asking a few questions or (in this case) by continuing a conversation. I'm afraid you misunderstand the Bible when it says that Christ took away our sickness (infirmities).

Isaiah 53:4-5 (KJV)
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.

This passage finds it's fulfillment in:

Matthew 8:16-17 (KJV) 16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

So here we have Jesus healing the sick and casting out devils. But if we stop here, then we have not properly understood what God is trying to teach us. Sadly, many people read these passages and others like it, and then believe that physical healing is actually part of the gospel, but it's not.

We must remember that Christ (God) always taught in parables.

Matthew 13:34 (KJV) 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

And if we remember this principle, then we begin looking for more information in the scriptures, and we find that physical healing in the Bible was always a picture which pointed to becoming saved. It was a picture of being healed from the sickness of our sin.

Mark 2:9-11 (KJV) 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

This is a strange account if we stop to think about it. Jesus sees a man who is physically cripple and instead of saying, "Arise take up thy bed..." he says, "thy sins be forgiven thee". This is God equating physical healing with the forgiveness of sins which us salvation.
And then when he's being questioned, he teaches the same thing the other way.

He says, "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house".

Thus time, instead of saying that his sins are forgiven (because he just said, "that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins"), he tells the cripple to get up and walk. This teaches us that infirmities, in the scriptures, pointed to someone who was in need of salvation.

NNwe can confirm thus because we're given evidence of people living their whole life in poverty and sickness and yet they were regarded as kings in the eyes of God because, while they didn’t have earthly riches or physical health, they possessed the most valuable thing of all, salvation.

Luke 16:19-21 (KJV) 19 -- There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Christ bore our spiritual sickness of sin not our physical sickness. The physical body of a true child of God will suffer infirmities and eventually death because this body is still cursed by sin. The proof of this is in the fact that we all still get old and die. This is the direct result of the curse of sin.

Genesis 3:19 (KJV) 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

It isn't until the last day, when our mortal, sin cursed bodies are redeemed and changed into an immortal and glorious body. Until then, we will all suffer illness and death.

John 6:63 (KJV) 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This isn’t argument but if you don’t know that good health,victory over addictions and anxiety in the physical body is part of our potion as children of God,I have nothing more to share with you my dearest brethren.The Bible says in Romans 5:17 If by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.),you mean you can reign in life with your illnesses???
Did Jesus ever fall sick? For He says as he is so are we in this world.1 John 4:17, But I hope this is common knowledge in Christianity that He carried all our illnesses at the cross,if you don’t know that,check what you believe,spiritual diseases??? really ??if that is all he can do for a man then it means medical doctors are better than him!!

 

[Noah761]

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Now, if by "critical study" you mean we should search out what those theologians (that you speak very highly of) have to say, then you are not doing critical study. You are taking a shortcut in your own studies and worse yet, because you hold these theologians in such high esteem, then it becomes that much easier to believe what they say, especially if their words agree with the words of other theologians. Why is that? Because you have recognized them to be "men of God", therefore the fact that their words agree should be evidence enough for anyone.

But the first problem is that it is impossible for us to look into the heart of anyone to determine whether they are truly saved.

John 3:8 (KJV) 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Salvation is a personal, intimate relationship with God. It is something that each individual has to confirm with God. Salvation is not like instant pudding where all we have to do is say a few magic words to make it happen. It is something that was to be waited upon with hope until God speaks to your soul (not literally) and assures you of true Salvation.

Lamentations 3:26 (KJV)
26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

Psalms 35:3 (KJV)
3 Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me:
say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.

So the whole idea of trusting in the conclusions of others because of who we think they are or how many degrees they have, should really go out the window. There's no need for anyone here to know each other, or to know what our backgrounds are or how many degrees we have, before considering the importance of their words.

Anyone, stranger or acquaintance, who puts forth a study or doctrine that is accompanied with scripture should be taken as a matter of importance until we check their words out against the scriptures. Paul and those in Thessolonica are a great example. Peter was a simple fisherman with no degrees, and so on.

So, your conclusion is based on the word of others, but, let's take one more look, you and I, and perhaps I may be able to point out why they are all wrong in this particular case. Please bear with me.

Psalms 12 (KJV)
TO THE CHIEF MUSICIAN UPON SHEMINITH, A PSALM OF DAVID.
1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth;
for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

Thus is a plea for help and God is about to tell us how the child of God is oppressed .....

2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour:
with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips,
and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

They're oppressed by the words of the wicked which go against the words of God. So, the focus of this chapter has to do with words, the words of man which are corrupt and the words of God, which are pure.

5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy,
now will I arise, saith the LORD;
I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

The child of God who live among the children of men are oppressed by the words and deeds of those around us. Here is an example:

2 Peter 2:7-8 (KJV) 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.

And what deliverance do we have from the evil conversationof the wicked? We have God's words. He has delivered his people by giving them his pure words which are living words and which can never be corrupted. He has set them in safety, meaning, he has saved them with his word. That is why he goes on to say:

6 The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

The context us still focusing on God delivering his people with his word. And his words, of course, represents the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God. Now, notice here that God’s words are tried as silver in fire is tried. Yet, we also read the same thing about his people.

Psalms 66:10 (KJV)
10 For thou, O God, hast proved us:
thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.

Zechariah 13:9 (KJV)
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name, and I will hear them:
I will say, It is my people:
and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

So, God identifies his word with his people because that is how God saved them, through his word. The very next verse is still focusing on the same thing, God's words along with his people.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

But, like Lot, as long as we live in this world, the filthy communication and deeds of the wicked to continue to get worse and worse.

8 The wicked walk on every side,
when the vilest men are exalted.

But thanks be to God who preserves his words forever as he does his own people.

Eddie, no way am I letting you get away with that deceptive answer to my post! Either you can't read my reply with understanding any better than you can read the Bible, or you are intentionally being dishonest. I did not start by going straight to the scholars and authorities as you state that I did.

I began by pointing out that the KJV translators, working from the Masoretic Text, which you say is without error, God's preserved word; that these very KJV translators used Margin Notes to be clear about what the Hebrew states. The note on v7 shows that the word "them" refers not to the "words of God", but to the godly persons, the faithful who God was going to preserve, help or save. I used the very translation you embrace, the KJV, based on the Hebrew text you say is without error, to show that Psa. 12:6, 7 is not a legitimate proof text to say the Masoretic Text is without error. That is NOT what the verse says.

I then go to scholars to illustrate I am not some off the wall, self-appointed Bible scholar pretending to be of some authority on the Scriptures. There is something called heresy and it is a choice where you deviate from the teachings of of the body of Christ and ignore recognized authorities on the Scriptures who are known, to listen to an unknown nobody, and that leads one so easily into heresy and sometimes quite dangerous heresy. Eddie, you were taught this error and did not arrive at it yourself because that passage has been so misused for as long as I remember.

You then go rambling off in an incoherent rant with various Scriptures that are beside the point on the meaning of "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (Ps 12:6-7, KJV)

Does this passage teach it is the words that the LORD shalt preserve, or the persons? It is the persons. It is true God's word has been preserved through the centuries but that is not the point this verse teaches.

I am an old fashioned Particular Baptist and I can fellowship with brethren of many denominations and I do honor the old ecumenical creeds; and the confessions and catechisms that came forth from the Protestant Reformation. I highly value the KJV and it is my main study Bible but I use many other translations as well. I read commentaries from various denominations, even Roman Catholic; but I do so to see their reasoning, their use of logic when dealing with God's word. Sometimes, as in the above, I read to see if I have gone off on a wrong path in understanding a passage of Scripture. I came out of the John R. Rice, Sword of the Lord, type fundamentalism; as well as that coming out of Bob Jones University; so I know about using critical study to escape erroneous teachings on God's word.

What is your doctrinal standing, EddieRomas? How do you describe yourself? I suggest any who are interested to read my comments on Psa. 12:6,7 to which Eddie has responded and see what I actually stated.

 

[Noah761]

Each of us in our human nature will understand a verse of Scripture in the way it has been taught to us in the past and every time we read the verse it will say the same thing to us. If we were taught an error, we need to study with a critical eye to see if we were taught correctly. The Scriptures are God's word, His word is truth, and it is through this truth in the word by which we are progressively sanctified and set apart from the world. What if what we were taught that it meant is incorrect?

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31-32, KJV)

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17, KJV)

Just as with the Ethiopian eunuch; he admitted he needed some guidance or teaching.

"And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him." (Acts 8:30-31, KJV)

How do we determine the truth of what we have been taught? I'd accept that everyone on this thread is a regenerate child of God but how well can we aid each other in seeking the truth of God in his word correctly understood? I see it important to our advancement in holiness to know God's word. It is not about winning debate points or protecting our pride and self-image in being right or wrong, it is about seeking God.

I know many areas of my life that are seemingly in need of work toward more sanctification. My family would be happy to provide a long list of my shortcomings and I admit patience is my weak grace! It is only a correct understanding of God's word to me and prayerful meditation and embrace of the truth that will transform my mind. I believe any child of God reading my words senses the same need for further sanctification, a closer walk with our Lord.

 

[EddieRamos]

I

This isn’t argument but if you don’t know that good health,victory over addictions and anxiety in the physical body is part of our potion as children of God,I have nothing more to share with you my dearest brethren.The Bible says in Romans 5:17 If by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.),you mean you can reign in life with your illnesses???
Did Jesus ever fall sick? For He says as he is so are we in this world.1 John 4:17, But I hope this is common knowledge in Christianity that He carried all our illnesses at the cross,if you don’t know that,check what you believe,spiritual diseases??? really ??if that is all he can do for a man then it means medical doctors are better than him!!

I understand your position. Nice to meet you.

 

[EddieRamos]

Eddie, no way am I letting you get away with that deceptive answer to my post! Either you can't read my reply with understanding any better than you can read the Bible, or you are intentionally being dishonest. I did not start by going straight to the scholars and authorities as you state that I did.

I began by pointing out that the KJV translators, working from the Masoretic Text, which you say is without error, God's preserved word; that these very KJV translators used Margin Notes to be clear about what the Hebrew states. The note on v7 shows that the word "them" refers not to the "words of God", but to the godly persons, the faithful who God was going to preserve, help or save. I used the very translation you embrace, the KJV, based on the Hebrew text you say is without error, to show that Psa. 12:6, 7 is not a legitimate proof text to say the Masoretic Text is without error. That is NOT what the verse says.

I then go to scholars to illustrate I am not some off the wall, self-appointed Bible scholar pretending to be of some authority on the Scriptures. There is something called heresy and it is a choice where you deviate from the teachings of of the body of Christ and ignore recognized authorities on the Scriptures who are known, to listen to an unknown nobody, and that leads one so easily into heresy and sometimes quite dangerous heresy. Eddie, you were taught this error and did not arrive at it yourself because that passage has been so misused for as long as I remember.

You then go rambling off in an incoherent rant with various Scriptures that are beside the point on the meaning of "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (Ps 12:6-7, KJV)

Does this passage teach it is the words that the LORD shalt preserve, or the persons? It is the persons. It is true God's word has been preserved through the centuries but that is not the point this verse teaches.

I am an old fashioned Particular Baptist and I can fellowship with brethren of many denominations and I do honor the old ecumenical creeds; and the confessions and catechisms that came forth from the Protestant Reformation. I highly value the KJV and it is my main study Bible but I use many other translations as well. I read commentaries from various denominations, even Roman Catholic; but I do so to see their reasoning, their use of logic when dealing with God's word. Sometimes, as in the above, I read to see if I have gone off on a wrong path in understanding a passage of Scripture. I came out of the John R. Rice, Sword of the Lord, type fundamentalism; as well as that coming out of Bob Jones University; so I know about using critical study to escape erroneous teachings on God's word.

What is your doctrinal standing, EddieRomas? How do you describe yourself? I suggest any who are interested to read my comments on Psa. 12:6,7 to which Eddie has responded and see what I actually stated.

If I twisted the meaning of your words in any of my replies to change the meaning of what you actually stated, then please post them here so I can publicly apologize. If I alluded to you first going to the scholars, that may be because what they had to say, made up the majority of your post.

There was no need for you to list your credentials unless you just wanted to do so. I'm interested in what comes from the mouth of people not what hangs on their wall. I think we should all be in agreement (but perhaps we're not). And I don't usually list my credentials, well, because I have none, at least none on paper.

I'm a fulltime electrician, husband, and father. My job serves only to pay my bills, but I study the Bible to make my living. I grew up pentecostal and then ended up in a "non-denominational church which was sorta Baptist like. It wasn't till I was in my early 20's that I began to analyze what I was taught in both churches and that they teach actually opposing doctrines from the same Bible.

So, I began doing my own research and studies and realized that the root of the problem, not just for these 2 denominations, but for every denomination, is hermeneutics. I realized that the method people use to study the Bible is what affects the way they understand what they read.

I studied the method which I was taught growing up which was the literal historical grammatical method of interpretation. This hermeneutic teaches that if what we read in the Bible makes sense, then seek no other meaning. But if it doesn’t make sense, then seek another meaning. But this makes each reader the authority as to what does and doesn't make sense.

I was taught that I should be trying to understand the scriptures as those who received it understood it.

But when I began studying on my own, I realized that no part of the literal historical grammatical method is taught in the scriptures. Even to this day, I have always asked anyone who holds to this method, to provide the scripture references for me to look up. I still have never received any.

I also realized that the Bible (God) actually provides everything we need to know as to how to approach, study and understand his word. And perhaps that would make for another good thread. So, when people use the wrong method to start with, then there's no way that they will end up properly understanding the spiritual truths that God has placed in His Word.

And if you're a Baptist, then I suspect that this is the very same method you have been taught to use in all of your schooling and have done that very thing which you are condemning. Of believing something simply because it has beenbtaught to you without first checking against the scriptures to see where these methods came from.

So, I don't hold to this hermeneutic, or any confessions or creeds or denominations. For all these are are just traditions of men, which men (not God) have placed spiritual value on while they reject God's own method of Bible study written in his word.

Mark 7:5-9 (KJV) 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, -- Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Now, regarding the way you prove the conclusions in your own studies, by checking with the scholars to make sure you're not way off, is a grave mistake. But I'm just an electrician. Instead, the way to make sure you're not out in left field is to compare your conclusions against everything the Bible has to say on that subject. If any part of the Bible contradicts your conclusion, then it's you (and me) who need to make correction and not the Bible.

So, relying on the translators notes as evidence or even confirmation of the way we should be understanding Psalm 12:7 is not the way to truth.

Matthew 18:15-16 (KJV) 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

1 John 5:7-8 (KJV) 7 For there are three that bear record (WITNESS) in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Going to the scriptures is the only way we can confirm all things. And what we're looking for is harmony within all the pages.

 

[Dino246]

There is a serious problem with this. The Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, but we don't have to guess how he will accomplish this, the Bible tells us:

1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Acts 17:11 (KJV 1900)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This is how the Holy Ghost teaches, by the true child of God studying his word and comparing spiritual with spiritual. This is how we rightly divide the word of truth and gain spiritual understanding of God's word.

You're drawing unwarranted conclusions again.

Nothing in the Acts 17 passage suggests "that is the way the Holy Spirit teaches". Rather, the Bereans were commended because they searched the scriptures to see if Paul's words were consistent with them.

Jesus said in John 16:13 "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." There is nothing there about God speaking only through the Scriptures, and nothing about the disciples studying the Scriptures.

I don't know who taught you how to interpret Scripture, but you have learned some bad habits. I suggest you look at what the Scripture actually says and stop adding or subtracting ideas like a bumpkin preacher. You will never understand the Scriptures properly if you are continually adjusting them to suit some a priori notion. Don't look for verses that are on the same general subject; look for verses that actually state what you claim.

 

[Dino246]

So, relying on the translators notes as evidence or even confirmation of the way we should be understanding Psalm 12:7 is not the way to truth.

Matthew 18:15-16 (KJV) 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

1 John 5:7-8 (KJV) 7 For there are three that bear record (WITNESS) in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Going to the scriptures is the only way we can confirm all things. And what we're looking for is harmony within all the pages.

If you only use one translation, and are under the delusion that translation is perfect, you will be limited in your ability to interpret Scripture. I'm not accusing you of this, though there are others on this board who do fit that description.

I examined Psalm 12 closely here: Psalm 12 under the microscope - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums, and concluded that verse 7 refers to people, not to words.

 

[EddieRamos]

......Just as with the Ethiopian eunuch; he admitted he needed some guidance or teaching.

"And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him." (Acts 8:30-31, KJV)

I would like to reply to this part of your post. It is very important that we don't let ourselves be taken in by what we see taking place historically being as the main focus of the passage. Here we see Phillip who was sent by God to preach the gospel to this lost sheep. Here God poses a very important question and truth, using Phillip and the Eunich as an earthly example of a spiritual truth. Phillip asks him if he understands what he's reading? This is the most important question we should always be asking ourselves every time we approach the scriptures. The Eunich, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit replies, "how can I except some man should guide me?". Now the words "some man " is the Greek word mostly translated as "certain", meaning a "certain one". "...how can I except a certain one should guide me".

Now, while Phillip was used to historically explain the word of God in this instance, he is not that certain one who does so for the elect children of God. It's God who is that certain one. How can we understand the scriptures except God should guide us?. The answer is, we can't. Thus, this passage serves to takes us right back to the Word of God to obtain our understanding, but only when we properly understand what this passage is teaching in the first place.

I hope this helps.

 

[Noah761]

If you only use one translation, and are under the delusion that translation is perfect, you will be limited in your ability to interpret Scripture. I'm not accusing you of this, though there are others on this board who do fit that description.

I examined Psalm 12 closely here: Psalm 12 under the microscope - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums, and concluded that verse 7 refers to people, not to words.

Dino, I'm glad to see your posts here. I'd really begun to scratch my head at things I'd been reading on here so you're a welcome relief!

 

[Noah761]

I would like to reply to this part of your post. It is very important that we don't let ourselves be taken in by what we see taking place historically being as the main focus of the passage. Here we see Phillip who was sent by God to preach the gospel to this lost sheep. Here God poses a very important question and truth, using Phillip and the Eunich as an earthly example of a spiritual truth. Phillip asks him if he understands what he's reading? This is the most important question we should always be asking ourselves every time we approach the scriptures. The Eunich, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit replies, "how can I except some man should guide me?". Now the words "some man " is the Greek word mostly translated as "certain", meaning a "certain one". "...how can I except a certain one should guide me".

Now, while Phillip was used to historically explain the word of God in this instance, he is not that certain one who does so for the elect children of God. It's God who is that certain one. How can we understand the scriptures except God should guide us?. The answer is, we can't. Thus, this passage serves to takes us right back to the Word of God to obtain our understanding, but only when we properly understand what this passage is teaching in the first place.

I hope this helps.

So, you go in for allegorical interpretation, whatever religious sounding whim you think, must be God speaking in your ear the truth in the passage? That's why it is so easy for you to contradict yourself so often, you can bend and twist allegory to suit your mood at the moment, or need to find an answer. That approach gives nothing but a man-made religion. From the background in churches you gave, I can understand it but it seems to be a symptom of this age of religion in which we live. Does your allegorical method include your privilege to change the meaning of "some man" in the KJV? Have you lexical evidence that the translation should be "certain one"? It seems the other main translations agree with the KJV.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Very well then, I will give my best response to this question.

Most historians track the present Canon to the Council in Rome (382AD). However, there is good historical evidence, that the Canon was decided upon before that time. Decided upon, by Jewish believers first and then the Assemblies of Christ, by the Second Century. Decided How? Decided by their acceptable use in preaching and teaching by these assemblies.

The Old Testament Scriptures, were pretty much settled, before the first advent of our Lord. Josephus believed the OT Scriptures to be stable before his day and Josephus found confirmation in another first-century Jewish source, namely Philo of Alexandria. Philo hints at a three-fold division to the OT canon. This three-fold structure seems to match Jesus’s own words about the OT being composed of “the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44). There were 22 Books that were accepted by the Jews and these 22 Books match the 39 Books that we have today. Many of these Books, were quoted from directly by our Lord and the Apostles.

The New Testament Scriptures, were determined, not only by acceptable use of the assemblies but in this three fold manner: 1) Their Divine qualities, 2) Reception of the Assemblies, which Christ is building and, 3) Compositional Authority - directly from one of the Apostles or ones who had extremely close relationships with them. In all cases - Divinely Inspired.

Further definition of these three factors follows:

1) Divine qualities - Scripture, where God's attributes and Glory can be seen. Through these Divine qualities, the voice of the Lord is heard. As Jesus himself declared, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me” (John 10:27).

2) Reception of the Assemblies - It is important to note that the work of the Spirit does not happen only on an individual level, but also on a corporate level. Thus, there are good reasons to think that God’s collective, covenantal people would recognize the books that are from Him. Then we can look to the consensus of God’s people (in both old and new covenant times) as a reliable guide to which books are from him.

3) Compositional Authority - A final attribute of canonical books is that they are written by God’s chosen agents, his inspired Prophets and Apostles. Put simply, not just anyone can speak for God; only those commissioned by Him for this express purpose.

In conclusion - Is the present Canon the design of God's direct actions, as it is in "inspiration"? We would have to conclude - No.
Is it the work of God's people protected and influenced by His Providential Government? We can conclude - Yes.

I hope that answers your question in part.

I read Your Post and this came to my mind, which agrees to your Views.

From Christ's Own Confirmation, about the Writings of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms, it's a no brainer that these Hebrew Scrolls were definitely Holy Spirit Inspired.

Peter's Disciple, John Mark, does not make an appearance until the Book of Acts, but is credited for writing the Gospel of Mark. According to one Church Father, Peter had John Mark be his Scribe + Disciple and Peter spoke the words of Mark in Aramaic while Mark wrote them down in Greek.

I mention this, because the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are primarily like the Book of Acts (Luke) account, people lived it and wrote about what they experienced. And clearly, the Holy Spirit, refreshed their Memories to be accurate in their accounts.

Paul's accounts some times were just Letters instructing the Churches he set up to maintain the Correct Course. But his Teachings were the object that Peter himself confirmed through the Holy Spirit.

As far as the Brothers James and Jude, they wrote guidelines and warnings that should be maintained in our Walk in God. Clearly Holy Spirit Inspired.

It's really fascinating how we are able to discover and see where the Holy Spirit Influenced these Writers.

Just like based upon Paul's Influence and Acceptance, Writers like his own Disciple Timothy and Others are also accepted as Inspired.

And I am not making any hint that they are not Inspired, I absolutely believe they were God-Breathed Written Accounts.

 

[EddieRamos]

If you only use one translation, and are under the delusion that translation is perfect, you will be limited in your ability to interpret Scripture.

Agreed.